DAC hunting...

[Casey Leedom]

I personally haven't used JRiver, so I have no idea what model it operates under. Direct Attached USB, Network Attached Storage, Client/Server Model, etc. But I'm sure that there's a cheap implementation involving a Raspberry Pi-sytle solution. I.e. whatever DAC you want, doesn't need to implement the network protocols that you care about.

Casey

[Boomzilla]

I worry that Roon may scramble my jRiver metadata while trying to import it. If Roon doesn't import my existing metadata, then I don't want it - period. I've spent hours grooming that metadata file to ensure that the right track names & album covers are with the right music - and a LOT of my music is obscure enough that the Internet Music Database lacks any information at all about it.

I don't use TIDAL, and care nothing of online streaming, so that Roon "advantage" is nonexistent for me.

Just because a download is "free" doesn't mean that there are no downsides.

[Boomzilla]

Feb 10, 2018 1:58:11 GMT -5 kybourbon said:

...For strictly audiophile music there is no comparison... Roon wins. Sounds just as good if not better, looks better, better metadata, and allows seamless integration of Tidal...

OK, kybourbon - You've piqued my curiosity.

How does Roon "sound better" than jRiver? They're both playing the same red-book CD-quality files. Does Roon (like MQA) claim to make a file sound better than the source? How?

Define "looks better." My jRiver can be set to display album covers or not - What can Roon do that looks better? Do nude supermodels hold up the album covers for you?

Define "better metadata." Do you mean less likely to be scrambled or corrupted? If so, how?

As I understand it (not that I care) jRiver also allows "seamless integration of online radio & Tidal."

So how does "Roon win?"

Nobody has yet answered my question - It looks to me that Roon is just another interface for organizing and searching your media. Why would I bother with it?

[Soup]

Feb 9, 2018 16:28:25 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I have looked - briefly - at Roon.
My problem with Roon is simply that it does a bunch of stuff I'm not interested in... and there is significant complexity involved in "getting it to work and keeping it working".
(Lots of people like all that "deep content" - but personally I rarely even read CD jacket folders.)
I do know several people who seem quite pleased with what Roon offers overall.

I actually had a "Squeezebox setup" back in the day.
I had a computer set up as a server, two Squeezebox Touch units, and two original Squeezebox clients.
It worked fine, but even the Squeezebox Touch units were limited to 24/96k (and I believe the originals topped out at 44k or 48k).
I also found it... disquieting... that the server supported some formats, and not others, while still others would be converted on the fly.
I also seem to recall "updating the library" to be somewhat slow when you had lots of files.
In short, it was "just a little more work than simply putting the files on a disc and playing them" - but I didn't value the extras that it provided in return.

I think that where I differ from many people is in the commitment I am NOT willing to make to an architecture or an ecosystem.
I have a very long background in computers - going back as far as when DOS was the current operating system.
As a result, I'm used to thinking of files as files... and considering the structure many systems overlay on them as "extra baggage".
For example, when I want to play Dark Side Of The Moon, I find it perfectly natural to click on the WORDS "Dark Side Of The Moon" in a file list...
Or to right-click on that title and then click on "Play All".
And I find having to hunt around for a picture of the album cover to be an unnecessary complication.

As I mentioned in another post, I store all my albums in FLAC format, in folders on a drive.
So, for example, I have a folder named "LOSSLESS MUSIC"; inside that there is a folder named "Pink Floyd"; inside that one named "Dark Side Of The Moon (2003 EMI)"; and inside that a file named "money.flac".
I can play that one file, or the entire album folder, in jRiver, or in Foobar2000, or in Volumio in my Raspberry Pi, or on any one of a bunch of other programs, without having to import anything, rebuild any libraries, or enter any tags.
The physical structure IS the logical structure; so, to add an album, I can just copy the files into the appropriate folder.
I have no interest whatsoever in sorting them by genre, or year of publication, or musician....
And, other than when I've added or deleted albums, I've NEVER had to sort, update, rebuild, re-index, or otherwise alter the same structure I started with fifteen years ago.

I don't really use tags for anything, but the CD ripper I use (dBPowerAmp) creates those automatically anyway - in case I do decide to use them someday.
(Tag&Rename would also cheerfully embed tags in all of the files based on their file and folder names anyway.)

I guess, underneath it all, I still really feel like I'm playing separate CDs......
Except that, now, I can pick the one I want to listen to off a list, so I don't have to find the plastic any more.
(And I can make playlists - which are really just another name for a "Mix CD".)
Now I just open my web browser, click the bookmark for Volumio.
Then I click on "Browse" then "USB" then "Hard Drive" then "Lossless Music" then "Pink Floyd" then "Dark Side of the Moon (EMI 2003)" then "Clear And Play" (or "Add to Queue").
To me it seems perfectly logical and simple to do it that way.... everything is where I expect it to be, and nobody is asking me to learn how they think about how things should be organized.
However, all the other extra stuff is just... well... extra stuff that I would never get around to setting up.

When it comes to some sorts of equipment I like fancy toys...
But, when it comes to music, I just want to push the button and have it play.... and I DON'T want to see a message telling me that some client needs updating, or that I need to re-index my library, or enter my user ID....

Obviously, we all have different needs and priorities....

Feb 9, 2018 12:09:58 GMT -5 Casey Leedom said:

KeithL , you should take a look at Roon. It's a pretty nice architecture. The old Squeeze Server/Client architecture works well too, but is only supported via volunteer efforts since Logitech decided to dump their investment in Slim Devices.

Casey

I agree with You!

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[kybourbon]

Feb 10, 2018 2:35:40 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Feb 10, 2018 1:58:11 GMT -5 kybourbon said:

...For strictly audiophile music there is no comparison... Roon wins. Sounds just as good if not better, looks better, better metadata, and allows seamless integration of Tidal...

OK, kybourbon - You've piqued my curiosity.

How does Roon "sound better" than jRiver? They're both playing the same red-book CD-quality files. Does Roon (like MQA) claim to make a file sound better than the source? How?

Define "looks better." My jRiver can be set to display album covers or not - What can Roon do that looks better? Do nude supermodels hold up the album covers for you?

Define "better metadata." Do you mean less likely to be scrambled or corrupted? If so, how?

As I understand it (not that I care) jRiver also allows "seamless integration of online radio & Tidal."

So how does "Roon win?"

Nobody has yet answered my question - It looks to me that Roon is just another interface for organizing and searching your media. Why would I bother with it?

If you are 100% happy with J.River then keep using it.

I was not. I think it looks antiquated (compared to Roon and Kodi) and is more clumsy to use than Roon. I'll keep J.River around for watching/listening to concert Blu-rays.

To each their own though. Go read some of the discussion over at computer audiophile if you want to get more opinions. Some like J.River and some like Roon. I'm firmly in the latter camp as of right now but I guess that could change.

And I get it... You aren't in to things like Tidal. But things like Tidal are the future. Actually, I'd argue things like Tidal are really already here to stay.

[Boomzilla]

I understand that TIDAL is here to stay. But the last two times that I've tried it, it lacked so much of the music that I already have that I decided it wasn't worth the money. If I ever DO decide to subscribe again, I can access it through jRiver just fine.

I understand that you (and many others) prefer Roon or Kodi to jRiver, but you've said yourself that even on the computer audiophile board "Some like J.River and some like Roon." That implies to me that the two are at least roughly equivalent. No - I'm not "100% happy" with jRiver, but I'd probably not be that with Roon or Kodi either. I've had enough of change for the sake of change, and after looking at Roon's website, I see no compelling advantage there.

And that brings me back to my original question - "Essentially, Roon seems like nothing but an interface for organizing and searching my library. Why should I bother with it?" Neither you nor any other Roon user has answered that question yet except with a string of completely unverified opinions concerning look & feel. What FEATURES does Roon offer that jRiver doesn't that make it worth the switch for me? Since nobody here is able to answer the question, it may actually be time to post it on the computer audiophile site.

[Boomzilla]

Well, I just logged into computer audiophile.com and found at least one semi-cogent explanation concerning Roon vs. jRiver:

I'm a long time JRiver user that made the switch to Roon and I haven't looked back. Here are a few quick thoughts on the Roon advantages for me -

1. Better mobile solution. My family uses tablets and phones for controlling in house audio and I find that Roon is much better at this.

I find jRemote to be just fine, thanks.

2. Whole house audio. I find that Roon is much easier to setup and use if you have multiple audio zones in your house.

I don't use whole house audio - so don't care.

3. Streaming integration. I use Tidal and the tight integration with Roon is very seamless. I was impressed.

I don't stream - so again, I don't care.

4. Family acceptance. I could never get my family interested in using JRiver. Too complicated for them. No such problems with Roon.

Rune, Tune, Dune - makes no difference - my wife isn't interested.

5. UI elegance and simplicity. I didn't think the additional Roon metadata would be a big deal either for me either but I changed my mind. I find it improves my interaction with my music library. Having immediate access to reviews, artist info and album history is nice and I do use it.

Something FINALLY that might be of interest - but not for the money that Roon wants.

6. Better support. When I installed the Roon trial, I had an issue with display scalability so I immediately cancelled my trial. Within an hour, I received an email from Roon support with links to possible fixes and they offered to extend my trial by 30 days if I wanted to try installing again. I was a bit amazed at the personal response so I tried again and the info they provided fixed the issue and I haven't looked back. On the JRiver support forum, I found the opposite approach and occasionally had difficulty getting them to address or even acknowledge software issues.

Agreed - Hell would have better customer support than jRiver. But since I'm already over the learning curve, I'm not sure that I care.

So in one swell foop - Roon may have some advantages over jRiver, but they are NOT anything that I'm willing to pay $119 a year for or that I'm willing to start over cataloging my existing library for. So in short, Roon loses. YMMV

[kybourbon]

Feb 10, 2018 2:25:44 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I worry that Roon may scramble my jRiver metadata while trying to import it. If Roon doesn't import my existing metadata, then I don't want it - period. I've spent hours grooming that metadata file to ensure that the right track names & album covers are with the right music - and a LOT of my music is obscure enough that the Internet Music Database lacks any information at all about it.

I don't use TIDAL, and care nothing of online streaming, so that Roon "advantage" is nonexistent for me.

Just because a download is "free" doesn't mean that there are no downsides.

Completely fair points.

A few others...

1. Mobile and tablet apps are great. I think they are better than J.River's but again you just need to try for yourself.
2. It meshes Tidal and your media together in one area.
3. Discovery and curation of media is great. Initially you can automatically add your curated albums based on genre to the "Main Library." This fills out your library with a ton of music with a cross-section of each genre. The Discovery tab allows different options to start listening. It can give you a record label or artist for example. This is probably the thing that I like most because I love to discover new music, new artists, etc. This is also helpful when I sit down and I'm not sure what I want to listen to. This is the really fun part of Roon and where their level of expertise in how they handle metadata really shines.
4. The radio feature builds on the metadata experience. Play a song you like and if you don't have anything else queued songs will start playing in the same genre again according to metadata tagging and the way that Roon uses it. This is great for not only discovering music but also to use in the background or during parties.
5. From what I have read (again I'm new to Roon) the amount of updates and new features added constantly are incredible. When you factor that the developer is active and constantly improving the software it makes the price easier to swallow. Compare that to J.River whose developer is well... Let's just say their reputation isn't the same.
6. Sound quality is on par with j.river. Some say it's better. Some say j.river is better. Most from what I've read say it's about the same.

Just a little more of my thoughts.

[kybourbon]

Compare the costs of Roon over the lifetime of ownership to the constant need to buy a new version of J.River and that delta gets much smaller.

Of course if you are 100% happy with your current j.river version then that does not apply.

[kybourbon]

Feb 10, 2018 7:11:05 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I'm willing to pay $119 a year for or that I'm willing to start over cataloging my existing library for. So in short, Roon loses. YMMV

So J.River is $50 for the "regular" license. By my estimation there have been 6 upgrade versions in the last 5 years. I think the upgrades are about $30.

So $50 + ($30 x5) = $200. Plus the price of additional upgrades in the future.

Again, to each his own.

[foggy1956]

Feb 10, 2018 8:18:08 GMT -5 kybourbon said:

Feb 10, 2018 7:11:05 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I'm willing to pay $119 a year for or that I'm willing to start over cataloging my existing library for. So in short, Roon loses. YMMV

So J.River is $50 for the "regular" license. By my estimation there have been 6 upgrade versions in the last 5 years. I think the upgrades are about $30.

So $50 + ($30 x5) = $200. Plus the price of additional upgrades in the future.

Again, to each his own.

Jriver upgrades are not mandatory

[kybourbon]

Feb 10, 2018 9:14:37 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

Feb 10, 2018 8:18:08 GMT -5 kybourbon said:

So J.River is $50 for the "regular" license. By my estimation there have been 6 upgrade versions in the last 5 years. I think the upgrades are about $30.

So $50 + ($30 x5) = $200. Plus the price of additional upgrades in the future.

Again, to each his own.

Jriver upgrades are not mandatory

Agreed. And I believe I said as much.

[foggy1956]

Feb 10, 2018 9:27:32 GMT -5 kybourbon said:

Feb 10, 2018 9:14:37 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

Jriver upgrades are not mandatory

Agreed. And I believe I said as much.

You did, my bad, first cup o coffee.😊. I have not tried roon but I find jrivers theater view to be very straightforward for accessing both music and movies.  YMMV

[kybourbon]

Wanted to post this for boomzilla. Not sure if this will allay your concerns about re-writing your metadata or not but this is a screenshot from my Roon settings. You can control whether it uses yours or theirs.

[brubacca]

Boom,

This conversation is all over the place. I can barely keep up.

You asked for a Ethernet DAC. Would it make sense for you to keep your J River computer and APP and just get an ethernet target for J River? (The Sonore MicroRendu can do this in Upnp Mode). Then you can add whatever DAC you want. Personally I use a Schiit EITR then to my DAC ( MicroRendu --> Schiit Eitr --> Gumby). Basically MicroRendu/Eitr become an Ethernet Transport to Coax.

Another idea would be to move your data local to the Hifi. Possibly the J. River Rapsberry Pi w/ Media Center on it to a USB DAC.(Or Schiit Eitr to Any DAC).

Lastly if you just want to use J River as a Upnp server you could look to use an appliance device. Cambridge Audio CXN, Lumin D2 (many others available) would be your control point and DAC.

A really Extreme DAC (Meaning beyond your budget) is the SimAudio 280D with their MIND module (~$3k). Also NAD is making a couple of integrated amps with the BlueOS module under $2,000).



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My system uses a Vortexbox to serve up the Data (From my Basement, Using Minimserver). At the HiFi I have the MicroRendu-->Eitr--> Gumby. My control point is an old iPad with the Lumin App.

[DYohn]

Feb 10, 2018 1:58:11 GMT -5 kybourbon said:

Feb 10, 2018 1:21:27 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I looked at the Roon site at y'all's suggestion.

Since Roon requires its own metadata file, I fail to see any advantage over jRiver, that I have already paid for and learned to use. Essentially, Roon seems like nothing but an interface for organizing and searching my library. Why should I bother with it?

I have J.River as well. I also have Kodi.

For strictly audiophile music there is no comparison... Roon wins. Sounds just as good if not better, looks better, better metadata, and allows seamless integration of Tidal.

Why don't you download it and try it out for free to test it out? What's the downside?

Exactly.

[DYohn]

If it's about money you don't need to pay to try the free trial. AND if it's JUST abort money and you don't care about sound or ease of use, then hell, iTunes is free.

[DYohn]

And one last comment before I realize this is a typical no-win discussion and bow out, I had been using Logitech Media Server since it was Squeezeserve and I bought one of the first generation Squeezebox 1's. I also tried JRiver and other solutions - even for a while the version of Jriver used for the Pono (I was a Kickstarter buyer of that platform.) When I decided to try Roon, I figured out how to install it on the same Linux-based platform that ran my misic server, realized the Sonic Orbiter player I was using as a Squeezebox emulator was also Roon Ready, and went for it. The installation was quick, although the music discovery process with my very large multi-terabyte, multi-drive and multi-format library took almost 24 hours. When it was ready to go I installed some player software on my PC and skeptically spun the first tracks to the Sonic Orbiter. The improvement in sound quality was startling. Much better than the sound I was used to with the LMS based setup. Right then and there I decided I was paying for a lifetime subscription to Roon. Then the icing on the cake was the interface and the fact that Roon found and made ready to play every music track on my system including many I didn't remember were there. I had a bunch of old low-bit-rate MP3s from years ago when I was experimenting with Sony mini-discs, thousands of ALAC, FLAC, WMA, OOG and Quicktime files from years of burning CDs, hundreds of iTunes downloads, hundreds of MP3 downloads from Amazon Music, FLAC downloads from HD Tracks, Mp4 tracks, DSD tracks, high resolution, low resolution, it didn't matter. Everything that LMS could not play were there. I am still discovering things I forgot I had and deleting things I no longer want. Is it perfect? No. It has issues with classical music gapless playback sometimes, it groups together pop music tracks into movements when they are not supposed to be, it is not easy to stream Internet radio stations and it is not yet compatible with Sirius streaming, and a few other minor annoyances that can be worked through and that the Roon developers are working on. The most important thing to me is it sounds better than LMS and I will not go back.

But if it's about the money then be happy with what you have. And again, none of this has anything to do with your DAC.

[Boomzilla]

Hi DYohn -

You say that Roon sounds better than Logitech, and I believe you. But my question is: Is this due to the hardware or the software? As I understand it, a blue-book CD file is just that. Any software that can transfer it bit-perfectly by definition can't change the sound. So I'm assuming that the difference you heard was between the hardware you were using with Logitech and the hardware you were using with Roon (Squeezebox, etc.). Is this correct?

And I'm back to my original statement - Roon looks to me like a piece of software that indexes and provides an interface to your audio files. No less, no more. If that's the case, then I see NO value in moving from one flavor of interface to another just to be moving. It won't (by definition) make ANY change in the sound quality - only in the look and feel of the user interface.

Now if I were using some shabby rat-sucked piece of hardware (like, for example my Apple AirPort Express) to stream audio and I moved to a more robust piece of hardware, then I could see maybe hearing a difference. But a user interface? Nah...

I consider the Oppo a sufficient DLNA target. From there, I can use its digital output (optical, USB, or coaxial) to drive any DAC that I want. I don't, after all, HAVE to use the Sabre DACs in the Oppo. Further, if I want to insert some streamer to take the place of the Oppo, I can tell the server computer to share the RAID with the network, and get any software I want (including Roon) to be my interface. But I, again, see no particular value in adding another piece of hardware and a different user interface.

I may yet download and try the free Roon interface, but I'm honestly not expecting anything but some wasted time.

[Boomzilla]

[RANT]The other thing that's bothering me about Roon is that the users aren't just users. Instead, like the REW crowd, they've become evangelists who want to cure the unwashed of the sins of stupidity and ignorance, bringing them into the light of the Roon. It's really kind of scary. The TIDAL adherents are another group that (having partaken of the kool-aid) just can't comprehend why anyone would NOT want to go TIDAL.

And yet, when asked to specifically define WHY Roon (or TIDAL, or REW) is so superior to other alternatives, there's nothing there. The asker is inundated with a bunch of opinion without backup and a list of features that, while indispensable to the convert, may be completely useless to the victim. Yes, Roon (and TIDAL and REW) are different than other commercial offerings, but they may or may not be superior depending on the needs of the individual.

And that, in a nutshell, is what the evangelists fail to acknowledge. Different people have different needs, and there IS NO ONE-SIZE FITS ALL SOLUTION. If you're in love with Roon (or TIDAL, or REW) and it fits your needs, then wonderful! I'm happy for you. But just because it's manna from Heaven for YOU doesn't mean that everyone else will find it so.[/RANT]