Installing new dual 20A dedicated media room lines

[davidl81]

I am looking for a little advice.  I am going to install two new dedicated 20A lines for my media room.  (Using one line for my amps and using the other for my subs)  Code calls for 12AWG wire, but I did not know if I should do 10AWG.  The run will be about 75'.  The only downside to the 10AWG will be the stiffer wire gets a little harder to fir inside of the service box and fish through the wall a little.

Any one have a suggestion on what to do?

[simpleman68]

Feb 16, 2018 12:32:22 GMT -5 davidl81 said:

I am looking for a little advice.  I am going to install two new dedicated 20A lines for my media room.  (Using one line for my amps and using the other for my subs)  Code calls for 12AWG wire, but I did not know if I should do 10AWG.  The run will be about 75'.  The only downside to the 10AWG will be the stiffer wire gets a little harder to fir inside of the service box and fish through the wall a little.

Any one have a suggestion on what to do?

You can use 10 gauge and it will fit 20 amp receptacles but it is damn tough to work with.

I used 12/3 wire to run 2 outlets in a double gang box. 1 run of wire for 2 separate outlets (shared neutral leg) No noise and no problems for me 4 years later.
Scott

[pknaz]

Why not do four 15A circuits using 12/3 for each, and using the half width breakers to effectively take up the same number of slots in the breaker box? - that's what I'll probably end up doing.

[simpleman68]

Feb 16, 2018 13:00:50 GMT -5 pknaz said:

Why not do four 15A circuits using 12/3 for each, and using the half width breakers to effectively take up the same number of slots in the breaker box? - that's what I'll probably end up doing.

Good idea and you can always split it out to 20amp breakers if you need them although you'll give up some potential real estate in the panel.
Scott

[davidl81]

I only have one breaker slot left open in my box and I was planning on using a tandem 20A in that slot

[adaboy]

You can use tandem 20a breakers. Just remember to use 12awg wire or lower or your wires could catch fire. If you only have one slot open use a tandem 20a breaker for 2 circuits.

[LCSeminole]

At minimum, according to the NEC(National Electric Code), 15 amp circuits require 14 AWG and 20 amp circuit require 12 AWG.

[Soup]

I recommend having a licensed Electrician take a look at it before I risked burning down my HOUSE!
Family First!

[Deleted]

David, if you want 10ga, get multistrand- Home Deport sells. I bought it for my boathouse. (nearly 450 feet to run 2hp pump, lift & lighting)
12 ga will work fine (@ 75 feet) because you are not running anything that will over load the circuit- ie 3 hp motor constantly.
If you go with multistrand, it is sold in red, black, white & ground- which can be 1 gauge smaller.
If you are going to the trouble of running new lines, insure you run all 3 wires: breaker, neutral bus & ground bus directly to receptacle with no branch circuits. (which is your goal)
A 220v breaker could be used, but use 2 seperate neutral & ground wires, not just a 4 wire romex.
Good luck

edit- be sure you buy 20amp rectacle, not 15amp.

[davidl81]

Feb 17, 2018 13:46:13 GMT -5 @texzick said:

David, if you want 10ga, get multistrand- Home Deport sells. I bought it for my boathouse. (nearly 450 feet to run 2hp pump, lift & lighting)
12 ga will work fine (@ 75 feet) because you are not running anything that will over load the circuit- ie 3 hp motor constantly.
If you go with multistrand, it is sold in red, black, white & ground- which can be 1 gauge smaller.
If you are going to the trouble of running new lines, insure you run all 3 wires: breaker, neutral bus & ground bus directly to receptacle with no branch circuits. (which is your goal)
A 220v breaker could be used, but use 2 seperate neutral & ground wires, not just a 4 wire romex.
Good luck

edit- be sure you buy 20amp rectacle, not 15amp.

Thanks for the advice. I’ve been looking at the routing today and since my breaker box is outside I will have to make part of the run with THHN wire anyway. I may be best off doing the entire run that way since the panel is on the same side of the home as the media room. I can just run conduit from the box to the wall and go external the entire route. I am going to run a separate hot and neutral, but is there any benefit to running a separate ground or should the two lines just share a ground. I guess truthfully it’s not any harder to run 6 cables instead of 5 so I might as well just do separate grounds. I’ll go 12 AWG since I can’t seem to find any need for the 10 AWG.

[davidl81]

Feb 17, 2018 13:44:44 GMT -5 Soup said:

I recommend having a licensed Electrician take a look at it before I risked burning down my HOUSE!
Family First!

Yeah I have a guy coming next Friday. I just wanted to have everything planned out ahead of time.

[Deleted]

Can't believe I said you can use 220 Volt breaker- WRONG
I ALWAYS use 3 wires- I've had this argument with electricians for years- each wire is its own circuit until it terminates in the proper bus / breaker. Yes, use a total of 6 separate wires. or romex

[thompson12]

Since you're out of Breaker slots and you're in the panel wiring things up maybe think about adding a subpanel right away then you'll have room for future expansions


Mitch

[davidl81]

What (if anything) are you guys using as surge protection / power filters on these 20A lines. Looks like most “surge protectors” have 15A fuses on them, but I’m sure there are some 20A models out there. Of course since it is a dedicated line how important is surge protection anyway?

[LCSeminole]

I'm using a Furman PL-PRO DMC 20 and have both my XPR-2 and XPR-5 running off one of my 20A circuits. It's marketed for pro audio equipment, but it's worked great in my home setup. Check out the PL-PROC 20 as well, it only differs with the front read out, and both are specifically meant for 20A circuits.

ww43.furmanpower.com/products/all/component-power/classic-series

[solarrdadd]

ok, if you use 12/3 to get your two 20a circuits, you will need to use a 2-pole 20a circuit breaker. NFPA-70 NEC says that type of wiring is considered to be of a "multiwire branch circuit" so you must use a 2 pole breaker that turns off both poles simultaneously meaning both will be turned off if it trips.

to truly isolate them, use 2 runs of 12/2, this way, you can run 2 single pole breakers with the ability to turn them off one at a time. you don't need to use conductors larger than #12awg unless you go beyond 100' from the source to the load this is to keep the voltage drop inside the 3% acceptable range. if your run takes you over 100', then, use #10awg.

i also recommend using side wired type receptacles, not the "push in" type, be sure to loop your screw terminals with the open end pointed in a clockwise position to ensure it guides to close around the terminal screw and not flare out away from it.

i would also recommend you use "hospital grade" 20a receptacles because they will offer you the highest prong tension available. the advantage of this is it will firmly grip the plug ends you engage the outlets with and last longer with said tension from repeated plugging and unplugging. hospital grade receptacles will have a "green dot" at the bottom of them so you know.

do not forget to land the ground. if your using non-metallic boxes, the ground conductor goes directly to the outlet. if your using metal boxes, make a pigtail splice with one end going to the box (it will have a 10/32 threaded hole for grounding some have the screws included, some do not.  you can buy green pigtail ground conductors with screws on them at your electrical supply store) the other end would go to the receptacle.

if you use a 2 gang box (to hold 2 devices) you can land both 12/2 cables in it, just be sure to land the neutrals with their respective phase (hot) conductor on their receptacles. bond the grounds and make pigtails to each receptacle and if a metal box is used, bond the ground to it.

make sure you update the panel directory to list the new receptacles in the room you have them so you know what the breaker goes too. this is a code requirement. for insurance purposes, if you live in a state where you can do the work yourself without a license, you still need to get a permit for inspection. this covers you and satisfies your home insurance. also, so you and other know which outlet is which, get a label maker and put the circuit number on the plate over the top of each outlet so it's known which breaker in the panel serves that particular outlet.

yes, i'm a Licensed Master Electrician, 38+ years in the trade. i would also say, if your not absolutely sure you can do this, then i highly recommend that you get a licensed electrical contractor to do the work. don't experiment on your house if your not sure about your abilities.

best of luck to you and i hope this helps.

[davidl81]

Feb 18, 2018 21:36:29 GMT -5 solarrdadd said:

ok, if you use 12/3 to get your two 20a circuits, you will need to use a 2-pole 20a circuit breaker. NFPA-70 NEC says that type of wiring is considered to be of a "multiwire branch circuit" so you must use a 2 pole breaker that turns off both poles simultaneously meaning both will be turned off if it trips.

to truly isolate them, use 2 runs of 12/2, this way, you can run 2 single pole breakers with the ability to turn them off one at a time. you don't need to use conductors larger than #12awg unless you go beyond 100' from the source to the load this is to keep the voltage drop inside the 3% acceptable range. if your run takes you over 100', then, use #10awg.

i also recommend using side wired type receptacles, not the "push in" type, be sure to loop your screw terminals with the open end pointed in a clockwise position to ensure it guides to close around the terminal screw and not flare out away from it.

i would also recommend you use "hospital grade" 20a receptacles because they will offer you the highest prong tension available. the advantage of this is it will firmly grip the plug ends you engage the outlets with and last longer with said tension from repeated plugging and unplugging. hospital grade receptacles will have a "green dot" at the bottom of them so you know.

do not forget to land the ground. if your using non-metallic boxes, the ground conductor goes directly to the outlet. if your using metal boxes, make a pigtail splice with one end going to the box (it will have a 10/32 threaded hole for grounding some have the screws included, some do not.  you can buy green pigtail ground conductors with screws on them at your electrical supply store) the other end would go to the receptacle.

if you use a 2 gang box (to hold 2 devices) you can land both 12/2 cables in it, just be sure to land the neutrals with their respective phase (hot) conductor on their receptacles. bond the grounds and make pigtails to each receptacle and if a metal box is used, bond the ground to it.

make sure you update the panel directory to list the new receptacles in the room you have them so you know what the breaker goes too. this is a code requirement. for insurance purposes, if you live in a state where you can do the work yourself without a license, you still need to get a permit for inspection. this covers you and satisfies your home insurance. also, so you and other know which outlet is which, get a label maker and put the circuit number on the plate over the top of each outlet so it's known which breaker in the panel serves that particular outlet.

yes, i'm a Licensed Master Electrician, 38+ years in the trade. i would also say, if your not absolutely sure you can do this, then i highly recommend that you get a licensed electrical contractor to do the work. don't experiment on your house if your not sure about your abilities.

best of luck to you and i hope this helps.

I am going to go ahead and run 2 separate sets of cable. I can’t use ROMEX since the box is out doors so I will just run 6 total THHN 12 AWG lines.

[solarrdadd]

Feb 18, 2018 22:04:42 GMT -5 davidl81 said:

Feb 18, 2018 21:36:29 GMT -5 solarrdadd said:

ok, if you use 12/3 to get your two 20a circuits, you will need to use a 2-pole 20a circuit breaker. NFPA-70 NEC says that type of wiring is considered to be of a "multiwire branch circuit" so you must use a 2 pole breaker that turns off both poles simultaneously meaning both will be turned off if it trips.

to truly isolate them, use 2 runs of 12/2, this way, you can run 2 single pole breakers with the ability to turn them off one at a time. you don't need to use conductors larger than #12awg unless you go beyond 100' from the source to the load this is to keep the voltage drop inside the 3% acceptable range. if your run takes you over 100', then, use #10awg.

i also recommend using side wired type receptacles, not the "push in" type, be sure to loop your screw terminals with the open end pointed in a clockwise position to ensure it guides to close around the terminal screw and not flare out away from it.

i would also recommend you use "hospital grade" 20a receptacles because they will offer you the highest prong tension available. the advantage of this is it will firmly grip the plug ends you engage the outlets with and last longer with said tension from repeated plugging and unplugging. hospital grade receptacles will have a "green dot" at the bottom of them so you know.

do not forget to land the ground. if your using non-metallic boxes, the ground conductor goes directly to the outlet. if your using metal boxes, make a pigtail splice with one end going to the box (it will have a 10/32 threaded hole for grounding some have the screws included, some do not.  you can buy green pigtail ground conductors with screws on them at your electrical supply store) the other end would go to the receptacle.

if you use a 2 gang box (to hold 2 devices) you can land both 12/2 cables in it, just be sure to land the neutrals with their respective phase (hot) conductor on their receptacles. bond the grounds and make pigtails to each receptacle and if a metal box is used, bond the ground to it.

make sure you update the panel directory to list the new receptacles in the room you have them so you know what the breaker goes too. this is a code requirement. for insurance purposes, if you live in a state where you can do the work yourself without a license, you still need to get a permit for inspection. this covers you and satisfies your home insurance. also, so you and other know which outlet is which, get a label maker and put the circuit number on the plate over the top of each outlet so it's known which breaker in the panel serves that particular outlet.

yes, i'm a Licensed Master Electrician, 38+ years in the trade. i would also say, if your not absolutely sure you can do this, then i highly recommend that you get a licensed electrical contractor to do the work. don't experiment on your house if your not sure about your abilities.

best of luck to you and i hope this helps.

I am going to go ahead and run 2 separate sets of cable. I can’t use ROMEX since the box is out doors so I will just run 6 total THHN 12 AWG lines.

legally, you could also use 2 runs of 12/2 UF type cable which is listed for outdoor/underground use as long as you use the proper connector fittings to go into the panel. they are listed for wet locations so you'll be fine using it outdoors. it's vulcanized cable and a little bit thicker than romex but similar. that might be easier to work with also, you won't have to change over to anything once you get it inside the house. the UF can go direct to the receptacles from the panel. once inside, you can use normal connector types for inside to include those that are sometimes "built into" the boxes for romex. make sure to use the correct box connectors inside the house and the correct outside connector at the panel.

[davidl81]

I am not installing the amps in a rack, so the rack mounted surge protectors may not work out great. Any know if these panamax’s are okay? I would get two sets, one for each dedicated outlet. Since the unit has 20 outlets that should be perfect for what I need.
www.panamax.com/product/2-outlet-direct-plug-surge-protector-20-amp-M2A20

[Deleted]

Take a look @ Brickwall surge protection. They do not use MOV's (measured in joules) as other products, so if you're hit the other units are sacrificed, but the Brickwall still works afterwards. Great design, it uses a specially made diode & inductor that shunts excessive voltage to ground. Brilliant. A little pricey, but it will not fail & need to be replaced, as MOV designed units, which get weak with age & use.

After loosing a couple $thousand in equipment from lightning strikes, I said never again.
Yes, I do have some MOV products because they're CHEAP cost/design. My main system is protected by an iso center tap xformer & custom designed filtering / surge protection + battery that an E.E. friend & I design/made 20 years ago. If I had to replace it, I would get a Brickwall + UPS.