Switching from device to software volume control via jRiver

[Boomzilla]

Up until now, I've run jRiver Media Center 22 on a server in my computer room. The music reaches my living room via DLNA over Ethernet. The Oppo UDP-205 is selected as the destination from both the jRiver server program and the jRemote app running on my iPad. In this configuration, I use the DAC in the Oppo, and the Oppo's remote control for volume.

However, I wish to bypass the Oppo's DACs (and subsequently, its volume control). As the DLNA stream arrives at the Oppo via Ethernet, I'd like to send it right back out of the Oppo's digital S/P-DIF coaxial output. From there, the (still digital) signal will flow to outboard DAC(s). But the outboard DACs have no remote volume capability.

I therefore wish to stream to the Oppo, but to use the jRiver digital volume control available from the iPad. What, if anything, must I do in jRifer/jRemote to configure that?

Thanks - Boomzilla

[KeithL]

When using jRiver locally as a player, you have a choice of which Volume control method to use.
However, with DLNA, volume control is normally performed by the client (and you want the SERVER to do it).
DLNA servers are normally intended to provide whatever file you request - but not to modify it; that's normally something left to the client.
Therefore, this is a very unusual configuration - which may or may not be possible.
(I've asked a few people who are familiar with DLNA, and they don't believe that this is something DLNA itself is likely to support, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that jRiver may be able to do it.)

Feb 19, 2018 11:19:42 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Up until now, I've run jRiver Media Center 22 on a server in my computer room. The music reaches my living room via DLNA over Ethernet. The Oppo UDP-205 is selected as the destination from both the jRiver server program and the jRemote app running on my iPad. In this configuration, I use the DAC in the Oppo, and the Oppo's remote control for volume.

However, I wish to bypass the Oppo's DACs (and subsequently, its volume control). As the DLNA stream arrives at the Oppo via Ethernet, I'd like to send it right back out of the Oppo's digital S/P-DIF coaxial output. From there, the (still digital) signal will flow to outboard DAC(s). But the outboard DACs have no remote volume capability.

I therefore wish to stream to the Oppo, but to use the jRiver digital volume control available from the iPad. What, if anything, must I do in jRifer/jRemote to configure that?

Thanks - Boomzilla

[Boomzilla]

Thanks, Keith -

Am I correct in assuming that the Oppo's volume control is done in the analog domain (after the Oppo's DACs have already converted the signal)? Because if not, and the Oppo is attenuating volume digitally, it might be possible to stream to the Oppo, let the Oppo attenuate digitally, and then use the (already attenuated) digital output of the Oppo to feed an external DAC.

Again, utter speculation on my part, but I'd be curious to try it...

[fbczar]

Feb 19, 2018 13:35:13 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Thanks, Keith -

Am I correct in assuming that the Oppo's volume control is done in the analog domain (after the Oppo's DACs have already converted the signal)? Because if not, and the Oppo is attenuating volume digitally, it might be possible to stream to the Oppo, let the Oppo attenuate digitally, and then use the (already attenuated) digital output of the Oppo to feed an external DAC.

Again, utter speculation on my part, but I'd be curious to try it...

Boom, FYI

"The BDP-105 uses the ES9018 DAC chip’s digital volume control. The ES9018 DAC has a 135dB dynamic range. The BDP-105 has a 110dB dynamic range. There is a 25dB difference before the noise floor of the player’s analog circuit starts to affect digital dynamic range. For BDP-105 each step of the volume control scale is 0.5dB, so it is best to have the volume control somewhere between 50 and 100.

Setting the volume below 50 does not mean that it will sound poor. It just means that the full potential of the hardware is not utilized.



Jason Liao

OPPO Digital, Inc."

[DYohn]

You need a preamp.

[KeithL]

Note that the Oppo's digital volume control is done INSIDE THE DAC.
So it will NOT be applied to a signal that is being sent to the digital output - because it won't be going through the DAC at all.

Feb 19, 2018 13:48:09 GMT -5 fbczar said:

Feb 19, 2018 13:35:13 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Thanks, Keith -

Am I correct in assuming that the Oppo's volume control is done in the analog domain (after the Oppo's DACs have already converted the signal)? Because if not, and the Oppo is attenuating volume digitally, it might be possible to stream to the Oppo, let the Oppo attenuate digitally, and then use the (already attenuated) digital output of the Oppo to feed an external DAC.

Again, utter speculation on my part, but I'd be curious to try it...

Boom, FYI

"The BDP-105 uses the ES9018 DAC chip’s digital volume control. The ES9018 DAC has a 135dB dynamic range. The BDP-105 has a 110dB dynamic range. There is a 25dB difference before the noise floor of the player’s analog circuit starts to affect digital dynamic range. For BDP-105 each step of the volume control scale is 0.5dB, so it is best to have the volume control somewhere between 50 and 100.

Setting the volume below 50 does not mean that it will sound poor. It just means that the full potential of the hardware is not utilized.



Jason Liao

OPPO Digital, Inc."

[Boomzilla]

OK, next question - Could I use Airfoil to send the audio to my AirPort Express via DLNA & then control volume on the AirPort via jRiver's jRemote or the Airfoil application? Would the volume control apply only to the analog output of the AirPort, or could I take a (volume controlled) TOSLINK output from the Airport to a DAC?

I'm striving mightily to maintain remote volume with this rig without using a preamp. Every preamp I've tried colors the sound somewhat. And the DACs I'm trying have no remote-volume capabilities.

[Timster]

Feb 21, 2018 18:12:22 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

OK, next question - Could I use Airfoil to send the audio to my AirPort Express via DLNA & then control volume on the AirPort via jRiver's jRemote or the Airfoil application? Would the volume control apply only to the analog output of the AirPort, or could I take a (volume controlled) TOSLINK output from the Airport to a DAC?

I haven't used JRiver as the source to my Airport Express, but I am very happy with the iTunes -> Airport Express (via Ethernet over powerlines) -> DAC -> UMC-1, running Toslink from the airport express. Volume can be either via the UMC-1's remote, or via the App.

I use the Apple Remote software on my iPhone or iPad to control. If you don't have an iPhone there are Android options as well. I know that there are "haters" of Airports and this not so purist way of doing things, but it works and sounds fine for the majority of what I personally need. However, I have only only a handful of "hi-res" albums, and majority of my music is encoded at 44.1/16 so iTunes is fine for that.

I assume that as Jriver supports the AirPlay output that it could control the volume successfully on the Airport Express, but I don't have jriver to confirm that, sorry.

[Boomzilla]

Thank you kindly, Timster -

I can say with authority that the jRiver server cannot "see" the DAC downstream of the Oppo. If my server is set to stream to the Oppo, the controls stop there. However, the Oppo will convert the incoming DLNA stream to a S/P-DIF coaxial output; but not volume-controlled.

I have Airfoil, so my next step will be the option you suggest, except that I don't use iTunes. I can use Airplay via the Airfoil app, so I should also be able to use the "Remote" app's volume control.

If not, then my "plan-B" is to revert to the DAC in the Oppo & try to ameliorate the perceived brightness with jRiver's parametric equalizer. This may or may not be successful. As KeithL points out, the Sabre DAC measures flat as a ruler - but the filter "enhances the contrast" in the upper midrange to lower treble. Will a very slight dip in frequency response in that area camouflage the filter artifact? Time will tell...

Again, thanks so much for your feedback. It's been VERY valuable to me!

Boomzilla

[Timster]

I had a quick at JRemote, and it would appear that it will control the volume of JRiver. Looking at it I think it controls the volume at the server. If so, I think that would solve your problem. If there was a trial version of it I'd try it along with the JRiver trial.

[Boomzilla]

Normally, jRiver would control the volume at the server, but if I'm using DLNA streaming over Ethernet, then the receiving device (in my case, the Oppo) is where the volume control occurs. And unfortunately, the volume control at receiving device only works for the analog outputs of the receiving device (not the digital ones). So if I want jRemote volume control with DLNA streaming, I've GOT to use the Oppo's DACs.

I might be able to get around this by using Airfoil to stream via Apple's "AirTunes" app to my Airport Express. It's possible that Apple's "Remote" app would control volume at the Airport. But I suspect that for this to work, I'd have to run iTunes, not jRiver. I've lost WAY too much music to iTunes to go that route again (despite the fact that iTunes has been bulletproof for others).

So my feeling at this point is that I have three realistic choices:

1. Use a preamplifier with remote volume (and tolerate the subsequent loss of audio quality) or
2. Live with the bright-sounding Sabre DAC in the Oppo and try to equalize the brightness out
3. Find a DLNA-capable streamer/preamp whose DAC I like with remote volume

Still contemplating...

[fbczar]

Feb 22, 2018 6:35:31 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Normally, jRiver would control the volume at the server, but if I'm using DLNA streaming over Ethernet, then the receiving device (in my case, the Oppo) is where the volume control occurs. And unfortunately, the volume control at receiving device only works for the analog outputs of the receiving device (not the digital ones). So if I want jRemote volume control with DLNA streaming, I've GOT to use the Oppo's DACs.

I might be able to get around this by using Airfoil to stream via Apple's "AirTunes" app to my Airport Express. It's possible that Apple's "Remote" app would control volume at the Airport. But I suspect that for this to work, I'd have to run iTunes, not jRiver. I've lost WAY too much music to iTunes to go that route again (despite the fact that iTunes has been bulletproof for others).

So my feeling at this point is that I have three realistic choices:

1. Use a preamplifier with remote volume (and tolerate the subsequent loss of audio quality) or
2. Live with the bright-sounding Sabre DAC in the Oppo and try to equalize the brightness out
3. Find a DLNA-capable streamer/preamp whose DAC I like with remote volume

Still contemplating...

Have you considered using an Emotva Control Freak, or something like that? I think it would work between the Oppo and your amp. If you could find a used balanced model on Ebay you might be is business.

[Timster]

Feb 22, 2018 6:35:31 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Normally, jRiver would control the volume at the server, but if I'm using DLNA streaming over Ethernet, then the receiving device (in my case, the Oppo) is where the volume control occurs. And unfortunately, the volume control at receiving device only works for the analog outputs of the receiving device (not the digital ones). So if I want jRemote volume control with DLNA streaming, I've GOT to use the Oppo's DACs.

I might be able to get around this by using Airfoil to stream via Apple's "AirTunes" app to my Airport Express. It's possible that Apple's "Remote" app would control volume at the Airport. But I suspect that for this to work, I'd have to run iTunes, not jRiver. I've lost WAY too much music to iTunes to go that route again (despite the fact that iTunes has been bulletproof for others).

So my feeling at this point is that I have three realistic choices:

1. Use a preamplifier with remote volume (and tolerate the subsequent loss of audio quality) or
2. Live with the bright-sounding Sabre DAC in the Oppo and try to equalize the brightness out
3. Find a DLNA-capable streamer/preamp whose DAC I like with remote volume

Still contemplating...

Do you already have the Airport Express (looks like you do from your comments)? If so, plug it in and try it on your existing ethernet line from JRiver to the Oppo, take the Oppo out of the loop. I think it will work as an end point for JRiver, and it can feed to your DAC with JRiver controlling the dBs :-)

... I think!

[goodfellas27]

I have the Oppo 205 connected to the XMC-1 XLR in, then to the XPA-7 amp. I enabled "fix" volume in the Oppo and use the XMC-1 in reference stereo as the volume controller for balance in. Sound really good to me. I am not sure if I am losing sound quality versus the Oppo > XPA-7

[Boomzilla]

Yes - but there's no free lunch... IF I run my installed copy of Airfoil, then jRiver will see the AirPort Express as a DLNA destination. Once that's done, then yes, the jRemote application WILL be able to control the AirPort Express's volume. But ONLY if I'm using the DAC in the Airport Express.

Any digital output (from the Oppo or the AirPort Express) is just that - a line=level digital output. No remote volume control is possible unless you're using the DAC and the analog outputs of the DLNA destination device. This seems arbitrary and capricious, but so far as I've been able to determine, this is exactly the way it is.

Ultimately, the choices (if I want to keep DLNA streaming) are two:

Connect the DLNA destination device's analog outputs to the power amplifier directly or else use a preamplifier.

My objection to preamplifiers (for all whom have taken it upon yourselves to ask) is that they all (yes, every single cotton-pickin' one of them) colors the sound audibly. Some are worse than others, but in all cases, when I remove the preamplifier from the system, the infamous "veil is lifted," and the sound is clearer, cleaner, and sharper.

Now there are several ways to avoid this conundrum:

Purchase a high-quality DAC/preamp combo. Normally, to my ears, the combination of the two (designed and specifically voiced to work together) color the sound less than random pairings of DACs and preamps.

Another option is to buy a streamer that will serve as an all-in-one device to rip, catalog, store, and play through its volume controlled outputs. Again, the integration may introduce less coloration than random and possibly-mismatched DACs and Preamps (or not?)

Just say sayōnara to preamps altogether & use DSP to compensate for the audible artifacts of the DAC variable output.

And those who know me, already can predict what I'll do... The first two options require purchases (and sometimes high ticket ones).

So until some preamp or DAC/preamp combo really strikes my fancy, I'll probably try the DSP options in jRiver to minimize the Saber-Sound of its DACs.

Cheers - Boom