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Post by audiogeek on Dec 3, 2018 20:59:27 GMT -5
Can’t wait to hear what you think! I’m loving my single S12.
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Post by leonski on Dec 4, 2018 22:00:52 GMT -5
Take photos. So IF there is any damage not visible you can have a bettere shot at a claim.
Better still would be a video of the 2nd 'unloading'
IMO? Do NOT order anything like this during the Christmas Rush. You'll get a lot of 2nd string types.....like the guy in the Budget Rental.
For me? We have a UPS and A FedEx both within easy drive range. I can or in this case WOULD have arranged to go pick 'em up myself.
Fragile Packages should be shipped using the ShockWatch system which will indicate handling OVER a certain 'G' load.
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Post by knucklehead on Dec 4, 2018 23:12:01 GMT -5
Update time!: UPS failed to deliver my two new subwoofers on last Thursday, then on Wednesday, and then yet again on Saturday, (I'd received emails preceding each with a new deliver day & time - a few hours after each 'no-show'). So after Saturday's fail, I got another email notice saying UPS was going to deliver them on Monday (today), 12/3 between 3:45pm and 7:45pm. Fourth time the charm? Okay, so one (yes, just one of them!) arrives today (on 12/3) - at noon(!). This one was delivered by a UPS guy, but (get this) he's driving a Budget rental truck! Said he didn't have the other one, and "it would probably be delivered later today". He proceeded to unload the subwoofer complaining "that things were better when UPS wouldn't take shipments that exceeded 50LBs!", and carted it up and in my door... View AttachmentThe thing looks like its been shipped back and forth across the country several times, and has a re-taped bottom(!), is filthy as hell, but no serious outward damage. Since its been frozen for four days (in the back of a Budget rental truck?!?) I'll let it gradually achieve room temperature before unpacking. Then the doorbell rings again at 2:30pm, different driver, and this time with a real UPS truck (progress?). He (drops it rather unceremoniously off the back of the truck onto the cart), and wheels in this box which joins the first, now both awaiting unpacking when I have time tomorrow night. This one's not quit as dirty, but there's a couple gouges in the box, and a two slightly smashed corners on this one. But now the two are reunited. I have some trepidation about the condition of the contents of each, but Emotiva's packaging is typically quite protective, so am hoping for the best... (And you'll notice that neither arrived within the delivery window quoted by UPS, so it was only by chance that someone was here to receive them!). This reminds me of a sub I bought from Infinity (ebay auction), a Cascade Model 15. An unusual shaped sub at that. Which is what caused the damage as I watched my regular UPS driver, Chris, drop the package (110 pounds!) off the back bumper onto the pavement. I remarked to Chris that he probably just destroyed or damaged a $1200 sub (only cost me $425 shipped!). He shrugged and grinned but said nothing. Three days later when he came to pick up the same sub because of the damage he again shrugged and offered no comment. I can understand why he didn't want to try to simply pick it up, anything more than 50# (IIRC) and they are supposed to use a dolly. Which he did, but only after crushing the damned thing. This is what the Model 15 looks like:  And here's the bottom side with the 4 6" drivers, they are very heavy!  Two of these drivers were dislodged from the frame, one partially hanging on, the other was hanging by it's wiring. The nose was distorted and you could see inside, not good for a sealed sub! The frame looked like 1" of high density particle board with insert/screws holding the drivers in. Usually quite sturdy but weren't going to hold heavy drivers in the frame. Four screws for each driver meant there was no leeway in handling these subs. A -1 to Infinity for the cheap package design. To be fair to UPS I put 90% of the blame on Infinity, since the ends of the sub come to a point, and the ends of the sub had all of maybe 2" of styrofoam for cushioning. Had they not been so cheap and added 2-3" of heavy dense foam for cushioning the sub may have been just fine. My UPS driver, Chris, should have known not to let something like this drop 2-3' from the bumper to the ground. How hard would it be to have a heavy duty foam pad handy to place under the item to be delivered? It would have saved Infinity one sub. I got the replacement sub about two weeks later. Damned nice sub it was. They were made more for music, at which it excelled at. Damned near as good as the 12" sealed SVS (SB12-NSD) I have now. Harman immediately sent out a shipping label, and once the sub got back into their hands another was sent out. I came to me in perfect shape. It was an interesting sub design. Sealed, and used 4 6" square drivers and an (IIRC) 800w plate amp. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 5, 2018 13:20:36 GMT -5
Update time!: UPS failed to deliver my two new subwoofers on last Thursday, then on Wednesday, and then yet again on Saturday, (I'd received emails preceding each with a new deliver day & time - a few hours after each 'no-show'). So after Saturday's fail, I got another email notice saying UPS was going to deliver them on Monday (today), 12/3 between 3:45pm and 7:45pm. Fourth time the charm? Okay, so one (yes, just one of them!) arrives today (on 12/3) - at noon(!). This one was delivered by a UPS guy, but (get this) he's driving a Budget rental truck! Said he didn't have the other one, and "it would probably be delivered later today". He proceeded to unload the subwoofer complaining "that things were better when UPS wouldn't take shipments that exceeded 50LBs!", and carted it up and in my door... The thing looks like its been shipped back and forth across the country several times, and has a re-taped bottom(!), is filthy as hell, but no serious outward damage. Since its been frozen for four days (in the back of a Budget rental truck?!?) I'll let it gradually achieve room temperature before unpacking. Then the doorbell rings again at 2:30pm, different driver, and this time with a real UPS truck (progress?). He (drops it rather unceremoniously off the back of the truck onto the cart), and wheels in this box which joins the first, now both awaiting unpacking when I have time tomorrow night. This one's not quit as dirty, but there's a couple gouges in the box, and a two slightly smashed corners on this one. But now the two are reunited. I have some trepidation about the condition of the contents of each, but Emotiva's packaging is typically quite protective, so am hoping for the best... (And you'll notice that neither arrived within the delivery window quoted by UPS, so it was only by chance that someone was here to receive them!). This reminds me of a sub I bought from Infinity (ebay auction), a Cascade Model 15. An unusual shaped sub at that. Which is what caused the damage as I watched my regular UPS driver, Chris, drop the package (110 pounds!) off the back bumper onto the pavement. I remarked to Chris that he probably just destroyed or damaged a $1200 sub (only cost me $425 shipped!). He shrugged and grinned but said nothing. Three days later when he came to pick up the same sub because of the damage he again shrugged and offered no comment. I can understand why he didn't want to try to simply pick it up, anything more than 50# (IIRC) and they are supposed to use a dolly. Which he did, but only after crushing the damned thing. This is what the Model 15 looks like: And here's the bottom side with the 4 6" drivers, they are very heavy! Two of these drivers were dislodged from the frame, one partially hanging on, the other was hanging by it's wiring. The nose was distorted and you could see inside, not good for a sealed sub! The frame looked like 1" of high density particle board with insert/screws holding the drivers in. Usually quite sturdy but weren't going to hold heavy drivers in the frame. Four screws for each driver meant there was no leeway in handling these subs. A -1 to Infinity for the cheap package design. To be fair to UPS I put 90% of the blame on Infinity, since the ends of the sub come to a point, and the ends of the sub had all of maybe 2" of styrofoam for cushioning. Had they not been so cheap and added 2-3" of heavy dense foam for cushioning the sub may have been just fine. My UPS driver, Chris, should have known not to let something like this drop 2-3' from the bumper to the ground. How hard would it be to have a heavy duty foam pad handy to place under the item to be delivered? It would have saved Infinity one sub. I got the replacement sub about two weeks later. Damned nice sub it was. They were made more for music, at which it excelled at. Damned near as good as the 12" sealed SVS (SB12-NSD) I have now. Harman immediately sent out a shipping label, and once the sub got back into their hands another was sent out. I came to me in perfect shape. It was an interesting sub design. Sealed, and used 4 6" square drivers and an (IIRC) 800w plate amp. Good story (semi-horror) about shipping. One 'cure' and way to assign responsiblity for such handling damage is to use the Shock Watch system. I've been a couple laps with the folks here and get No Traction, but will say that it is a terrific system that the company I worked for used to document poor handling of delicate (though well packed) and $$$ semiconductor wafers. Check out the video. More an advert, but the usage us clear. www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1yBmf8ep-I |
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Dec 15, 2018 11:02:12 GMT -5
Follow up time! I waited and unpacked the subs the day after they arrived, both were in good condition as Emotiva designed the packing materials really well, so that was a relief! I disconnected my old (remaining) sub, the one that's going to my older daughter, the other was taken out of the system when it started to hum way back so I've been running on one sub for a while now... Connected the new subs (they look great BTW), into the same spots. one left, one right, each in corners about two feet from the walls, and each with a bass trap in its corner. Made identical connections as my originals - RCA subwoofer cables (from Blue Jean Cables) and power cords plugged into dedicated 15amp & 20 amp circuits I'd had installed just for the home theater. Now the problem. These new S12 subs emit a VERY NOTICEBLE 'pop', or 'thump' (take your pick) when receiving a signal, or when returning to standby mode! I thought at first maybe the problem would right itself with some 'break-in' period (a theory I've never really believed, but lets wait and see...), but no, still after a week the problem continued. Now my wife is beginning to complain about it (not a good sign, as she's overly tolerant with me about this hobby!). So I contacted Emotiva support, they suspected a power source problem. They suggested I switch the circuits that they're plugged into. So I did (remember, I have several dedicated circuits, as well as nearby typical residential 15amp versions, so this was easy to try). So I made those changes and still the problem persists. I switched out the power cords they came with, with higher gauge, higher quality more shielded versions I had on hand, but again, the problem remained. Contacted support again to report my results, and to suggest that maybe the LFE/RCA inputs are be at fault because these noises I'd now noticed (by paying closer attention to the standby/on light changes relative to the 'pops'), so mentioned that they occurred when the subs switched from standby to on, and back again. I suggested that maybe balanced cable connections may solve the problem, and requested Emotiva support to send me some to try that theory, and I'll buy them if they work, but return the subs (for a full refund including shipping) if they don't. I really don't know why this should be necessary (as my old subs never had any such problems with the RCA connections!), but I'm willing to give this a try. So that's where I am with these right now....not happy.  |
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Post by adaboy on Dec 15, 2018 12:07:23 GMT -5
Follow up time! I waited and unpacked the subs the day after they arrived, both were in good condition as Emotiva designed the packing materials really well, so that was a relief! I disconnected my old (remaining) sub, the one that's going to my older daughter, the other was taken out of the system when it started to hum way back so I've been running on one sub for a while now... Connected the new subs (they look great BTW), into the same spots. one left, one right, each in corners about two feet from the walls, and each with a bass trap in its corner. Made identical connections as my originals - RCA subwoofer cables (from Blue Jean Cables) and power cords plugged into dedicated 15amp & 20 amp circuits I'd had installed just for the home theater. Now the problem. These new S12 subs emit a VERY NOTICEBLE 'pop', or 'thump' (take your pick) when receiving a signal, or when returning to standby mode! I thought at first maybe the problem would right itself with some 'break-in' period (a theory I've never really believed, but lets wait and see...), but no, still after a week the problem continued. Now my wife is beginning to complain about it (not a good sign, as she's overly tolerant with me about this hobby!). So I contacted Emotiva support, they suspected a power source problem. They suggested I switch the circuits that they're plugged into. So I did (remember, I have several dedicated circuits, as well as nearby typical residential 15amp versions, so this was easy to try). So I made those changes and still the problem persists. I switched out the power cords they came with, with higher gauge, higher quality more shielded versions I had on hand, but again, the problem remained. Contacted support again to report my results, and to suggest that maybe the LFE/RCA inputs are be at fault because these noises I'd now noticed (by paying closer attention to the standby/on light changes relative to the 'pops'), so mentioned that they occurred when the subs switched from standby to on, and back again. I suggested that maybe balanced cable connections may solve the problem, and requested Emotiva support to send me some to try that theory, and I'll buy them if they work, but return the subs (for a full refund including shipping) if they don't. I really don't know why this should be necessary (as my old subs never had any such problems with the RCA connections!), but I'm willing to give this a try. So that's where I am with these right now....not happy. Did they agree to send you cables? They shouldn't have to do that, considering it's Not going to solve this issue. |
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 15, 2018 14:01:39 GMT -5
... Now the problem. These new S12 subs emit a VERY NOTICEBLE 'pop', or 'thump' (take your pick) when receiving a signal, or when returning to standby mode! My S12 also has a pop/thump when it turns on or off, but it doesn't bother me, per se, though I am curious about it. It and a pair of Stealth-6's are connected to a DC-1, with the power cables connected to a Monoprice power unit, so I can turn on the speakers all at once. The S12 is connected stereo-wise to the DC-1's RCA outputs, the Stealth-6's are connected via the XLRs. I use the S12's pass filter to limit the S12 to only the low frequencies. Not a true "theater bypass", but these puppies are in my office not a theater ;-) |
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Post by IronPigsDigs on Dec 15, 2018 14:11:32 GMT -5
My S12 also has a pop/thump when it turns on or off, but it doesn't bother me, per se, though I am curious about it. It and a pair of Stealth-6's are connected to a DC-1, with the power cables connected to a Monoprice power unit, so I can turn on the speakers all at once. The S12 is connected stereo-wise to the DC-1's RCA outputs, the Stealth-6's are connected via the XLRs. I use the S12's pass filter to limit the S12 to only the low frequencies. Not a true "theater bypass", but these puppies are in my office not a theater ;-) My SVS SB12 has always done this. I'm also curious, now. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 15, 2018 20:17:59 GMT -5
My HSU is very silent.
On when it gets a signal is silent.
A couple minutes after signal is removed, it simply shuts off.....
I'll listen more closely, but I'm not concerned.
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 16, 2018 10:24:31 GMT -5
My S12 also has a pop/thump when it turns on or off, but it doesn't bother me, per se, though I am curious about it. It and a pair of Stealth-6's are connected to a DC-1, with the power cables connected to a Monoprice power unit, so I can turn on the speakers all at once. The S12 is connected stereo-wise to the DC-1's RCA outputs, the Stealth-6's are connected via the XLRs. I use the S12's pass filter to limit the S12 to only the low frequencies. Not a true "theater bypass", but these puppies are in my office not a theater ;-) My SVS SB12 has always done this. I'm also curious, now. Very common for some of these powered subs. to do a slight click or pop when they first come up, but dead quiet operationally. If they start makin’ noise in run time or hum a bit initially, then quiet down, it’s time to get to the shop. Bill |
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 16, 2018 14:26:13 GMT -5
My HSU is very silent. On when it gets a signal is silent. A couple minutes after signal is removed, it simply shuts off..... This sounds like you are using a stand-by mode, not actually turning the current completely off. I do the same with my theater sub SVS PC-12+ and there is no thump there - it just starts playing when it detects a signal. Same thing with my MPS-2 amp. Obviously there is some trickle current to keep the devices in the stand-by mode, which I suppose can add up when considering all the other devices in one's house that have similar modes - I wish I knew but it's time consuming to run around with one's Kill-A-Watt plugging it in, say overnight, to get a good reading, one component at a time. For my Airmotiv S12 I have it completely powered off until I throw a switch that turns it and the two front Stealth-6's on. I'm thinking I will change my mind and put the S12 in stand-by mode instead. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 16, 2018 14:51:16 GMT -5
Right you are.......'Standby' it is. Certainly not a big power draw, I'd have to do a survey with the Kill-A-Watt as well. And 12 hours with no use would, I think, give a reliable power draw number. My amps (Parasound) use the same system. They turn ON after detecting a signal. But they DO emit relay clicking noises on turnoff which I think disconnect the outputs FROM the speakers so capacitor discharge thumps either go to ground or  ? They don't make it to the speaker which is all I care about. |
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Dec 17, 2018 15:39:45 GMT -5
Yeah, if I set the 'power mode switch' to "On", then no pops/thumps. But then how much current are these always drawing? My old JBL subs were in standby all the time (no "On" always option with those), and there was only a slight solenoid click each time they'd get a signal, and were silent when returning to standby. Whereas these S12s emit a very noticeable 'pop/thump' noise when doing so! Still working through the problems and options w/Emo support, so I'll keep this thread updated as and when I know more...  |
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Post by leonski on Dec 17, 2018 18:24:04 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 19:08:04 GMT -5
My Monitor Audio sub never popped (on, off) with the Demon but does with UMC & Integra.
I also have an Energy sub in bedroom on a Denon- never a pop in nearly 10 yrs.
The problem is in the pre-amp I suspect, but I never tried on, off by itself- not connected to anything.
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Dec 26, 2018 21:18:40 GMT -5
Update time.
I asked to return the two S12s, but was told I'd have to cough up the return shipping...so decided to keep them and just keep them switched to "On".
I don't like doing that, but I dislike spending $160 to ship them back even more!
A propensity for 'pops/thumps' is a design flaw that should definitely be remedied in future production runs I think...though that might be a side effect of having the better quality class A/B amps too, but I don't know that that's the case. Set to "On" they draw 45 watts constantly, but I don't have the pop/thump noise when the switch between standby and on, so that's what I'll do, and experiment more with the settings than I already have.
(I know this is NOT a pre-pro problem, as two other different subs have never had this issue with identical connections).
On the positive side, these two S12s do perform very well with movies and music - I especially need two in my large room!.
And they have a balanced connection option, and also have quality class A/B 500w amps instead of the usual class D subwoofer plate amp, so I like that too.
I'll update again should things change, but I think they'll fit well.
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Post by leonski on Dec 27, 2018 2:23:58 GMT -5
One other possible?
Sure, it's not the pre/pro. Or IS it?
I'd experiment with turn on order, the subs first or last and time between that and upstream gear.
IF no matter what / when, turning on the sub produces a thump, than I'd be back on the phone to EMO, and ask about a 'fix'......
My power condiditoner, for example, has time delay outlets. When I press 'on', I can configure it for some stuff to come on immediately and OTHER stuff maybe 10 seconds later......
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Jan 7, 2019 23:11:05 GMT -5
One other possible? Sure, it's not the pre/pro. Or IS it? I'd experiment with turn on order, the subs first or last and time between that and upstream gear. IF no matter what / when, turning on the sub produces a thump, than I'd be back on the phone to EMO, and ask about a 'fix'...... My power condiditoner, for example, has time delay outlets. When I press 'on', I can configure it for some stuff to come on immediately and OTHER stuff maybe 10 seconds later...... Yeah, I'm sure its not the pre-pro. I think its just how these subs are designed - with class A/B amps instead of class D like most subs. When going from standby to on and back again they emit a very noticeable 'pop/thump' sound. Don't like that! Emo support suggested turning up the level the pre-pro delivers to the sub and then turning down the sub volume to compensate. That helps, but doesn't cure the whole problem - especially when watching TV shows that can go from no LFE signal to a commercial that has a lot and back again, all within a few minutes! Hearing the pop/thump each time is just not right. So I've re-set them to their levels as Audyssey XT32 had them and I just turn them "On" when in use (not left in standby), then they just stay on the whole time... Otherwise these are great subs with impressive sound and capability, but Emo really should design a better method of switching between standby and on... |
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Post by leonski on Jan 7, 2019 23:26:47 GMT -5
My sub with the signal sensing 'on' function will stay ON for a couple minutes with no signal. So even lulls in level won't turn it off....it'd have to be quiet for a couple minutes.
The timing on/off is based on capacitor charging.
Any way to get EMO to part with a schematic so you can have a tech take a look with an eye to changing that cap?
Your work-around is good and you may want to simply leave well-enough alone.....
On / off order, like i was thinking won't help if it doesn't turn on until it sees a signal, anyway.......hmmmmmmm.
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Jul 24, 2019 21:53:19 GMT -5
Further update time!
I've adjusted these two subs now so that they hardly ever emit a (very noticeable) 'pop/thump' when switching from standby to 'on' when first receiving a signal.
How'd I do that?
By 'goosing' the signal they get from the pre-pro to well above that set by Audyssey XT32 (probably +7 to +8db or so on each!).
But ya know what? I think I like it better this way with more noticeable bass! (Wasn't it Sound & Vision reviewer David Vaughn on this forum who said you can never have too much bass? Always really liked his reviews too!).
So now I really like these subwoofers.
Also, they're performance is quite good and impressive - recently watched the Blu-rays of "A Star is Born" and "Bohemian Rhapsody" at high volume ("-7db" setting or so on my system), and the bass is very impressive and realistic.
One odd thing though...Emotiva now specs these Airmotiv S12 subwoofers (and their S10s & S15s) as having class D amps, and not the class A/B amps as when I bought mine last December.
Did they change the amps in these?
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? They don't make it to the speaker which is all I care about. 
