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Post by rockman85 on Jun 8, 2018 11:30:12 GMT -5
Firstly, thank to everyone for all the advice and support I've received putting my system together.
Quick recap, Ive been putting together a sound system for a few years now and prior to now was running a crown amplifier (XTI 1002) with my Stealth DC-1 dac and Tekton Pendragon speakers.
I have been pretty disheartened, sad, defeated... The sound coming from my system was just blegh, didn't even sound as good as my bedroom setup with the Andrew Jones 5.1 speakers and a Sony AVR (<$1,000 system). Why did I spend 2k on speakers, and another thousand on preamp/amp seperates? My music sounded flat, dull, uninteresting. I wouldnt even listen to metal, my favorite genre, because it just had no balls (as Steve Guttenberg ((The Audiophiliac not the actor)) would say). I tried supplementing the low end with a subwoofer, which helped a little, but nothing could really help the lifeless sound coming out of my system.
Sadly I had believed the, what I now believe is utter nonsense that all amplifiers operating at non clipping... blah blah sound exactly the same. Lies, damn lies I say!!!
Happy ending, I sold the Crown and purchased a BasX A-300. Its not even broken in yet and its a world of difference. I actually feel like the speakers I bought are making the sound I read about in all those online reviews. The A-300 compliments the clarity of the DC-1 with a very VERY musical sound. Metal sounds lively and crunchy, Phantom of the Opera made me tear up, EDM sounds transcendent. I could go on, but suffice it to say I am very pleased with my new amplifier.
Lesson learned, pro audio gear has no place in a hi-fi system.
Thanks Emotiva.
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Post by garbulky on Jun 8, 2018 11:38:13 GMT -5
Yep my experience with two or more drivecore XLS models revealed them to sound rather mediocre even at moderate volume levels. On my axioms they sounded shouty and did not sound like their response was even feeling like there was a hole in the response. All the Emotiva amps however had a full sound with a top to bottom balance.
P.S. if you get a chance to try an XPA-2 gen 1 or two you'll find yourself quite surprised. Not a gen 3 though which doesn't sound the same to me.
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Post by rockman85 on Jun 8, 2018 11:53:40 GMT -5
Yep my experience with two or more drivecore XLS models revealed them to sound rather mediocre even at moderate volume levels. On my axioms they sounded shouty and did not sound like their response was even feeling like there was a hole in the response. All the Emotiva amps however had a full sound with a top to bottom balance. P.S. if you get a chance to try an XPA-2 gen 1 or two you'll find yourself quite surprised. Not a gen 3 though which doesn't sound the same to me. I fear the next step up would have to justify some extreme step in quality. I.E. if I ever upgrade again it will probably be to monoblocks, which will have to be the DR1 since they are discontinuing the XPA1. |
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Post by leonski on Jun 8, 2018 12:28:05 GMT -5
Review of Tekton speaker: www.stereomojo.com/Tekton%20Pendragon%20Loudspeaker%20Review.htm/TektonPendragonLoudspeakerReview.htmModest impedance data and easy to drive PHASE, which means tube or SS will work find. And given the ESTIMATED sensitivity of 95db, depending on requirments and room size, you really do NOT need a Mega Amp to make these work well. Tekton uses SEAS drivers which are Highly Regarded and used in a number of high-end designs. The OPs remarks about his ending use of 'Pro Audio' reminds me a little of guys who move Auto Stereo into a house and than are ultimately disappointed. Competent amps have more in common than glaring differences, when dealing with EASY loads. As the load deteriorates, and NOT simply low impedance, though that plays into the result, amps start falling out and indeed, sounding 'different'. Running an Old-School BIG BOX speaker (think Altec or Bozak or Voice Of The Theater) with a high damping factor SS amp may produce poor bass while using a modern low self-damping speaker with a low DF Tube amp should generally result in 'fat' or 'bloated' bass. The ONE set of measured data I saw indicates that ELECTRICALLY, at least, the Pendragon line is modest in its demands and will work with most reasonable amps. For ME and my fairly modest requirements? I'd be more than happy with FAR less than XPA-1 power levels which to me are vast overkill for these speakers. www.stereomojo.com/Tekton%20Pendragon%20Loudspeaker%20Review.htm/TektonPendragonLoudspeakerReview.htmWould monoblocks be a step 'up' in quality? Who knows? But instead of throwing MORE power at 'em, I'd maybe look elsewhere IF it comes to 'upgrade'. Lots and LOTS of options if / when it comes to that. The take-away is to build a SYSTEM, not a collection of parts. I think EMO amps can be a wonderful stepping stone into this alleged 'hobby' |
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Post by rockman85 on Jun 8, 2018 12:56:11 GMT -5
Im not much of an engineer and my eyes glaze over when you guys get into that technical stuff. I am an accounting / finance professional by trade and a music enthusiast at home. All I know is what my ears tell me and that is the Emotiva amp slays the Crown. I'm sure the engineering behind it is the reason but its all greek to me. I'm thinking though that the amp being type A/B vs Type D has something to do with it.
Also, I am by no means saying I need more power, (especially since my Tektons are 4ohm), or at least I requested them I can't actually cannot prove they are 4ohm. It is my understanding though that, regardless of the added power, the DR amps are in theory supposed to be better, at least the price would suggest so.
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Post by rbk123 on Jun 8, 2018 13:37:11 GMT -5
Im not much of an engineer and my eyes glaze over when you guys get into that technical stuff. I am an accounting / finance professional by trade and a music enthusiast at home. A bean counter who is a metal head? That is awesome. You sir, are a diamond in the rough. |
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Post by rockman85 on Jun 8, 2018 13:44:39 GMT -5
Im not much of an engineer and my eyes glaze over when you guys get into that technical stuff. I am an accounting / finance professional by trade and a music enthusiast at home. A bean counter who is a metal head? That is awesome. You sir, are a diamond in the rough. Such is the duality of man. \m/ |
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Post by leonski on Jun 8, 2018 14:03:18 GMT -5
Im not much of an engineer and my eyes glaze over when you guys get into that technical stuff. I am an accounting / finance professional by trade and a music enthusiast at home. All I know is what my ears tell me and that is the Emotiva amp slays the Crown. I'm sure the engineering behind it is the reason but its all greek to me. I'm thinking though that the amp being type A/B vs Type D has something to do with it. Also, I am by no means saying I need more power, (especially since my Tektons are 4ohm), or at least I requested them I can't actually cannot prove they are 4ohm. It is my understanding though that, regardless of the added power, the DR amps are in theory supposed to be better, at least the price would suggest so. You need to go HEAR some stuff. Almost ANYTHING will do. A real stereo or HT store will help settle some of the stuff you are hearing. Amp 'class' has little to do with anything. 'D' amps ? 'A' amps? and all the rest vary in qualities all over so generalizations are of little help. The best are pretty good, regardless of 'class' or other stuff. Reviews are little help. Unless you and the reviewer have a lot in common so you can 'track' what the person says VS what you value. Without regard to 'number' of watts, better is still better. You heard differences while some other persons are happy with those Crown. Nearly 50 years ago, the Crown DC300 was on the Short List. Here is link to some comments from 1970! www.stereophile.com/content/crown-dc-300-power-amplifier |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Jun 8, 2018 14:43:15 GMT -5
With respect (or lack there of) to the 50 year ago short list. I recently acquired a Kenwood Supreme 600 integrated amplifier. Re-Capped the amp and cleaned it up. It sounded very good. 50lbs of 130WPC beast. I most recently replaced that amp with an EMO A-500 and while the Kenwood could crank out ample amounts of SPL, the A-500 is much cleaner and more detailed a sound. As my handle indicates Ex_Vintage is the way to go.
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Post by leonski on Jun 8, 2018 15:57:25 GMT -5
No QUESTION that a LOT of progress has been made. People still remember the 'Flame Linear' 400 of Bob Carver Design.
Me? I still have limited access to my old Kenwood KA-7100 which is going on 50 years old, too and STILL working.
So much has been learned about ALL facets of amp design. Parts should be somewhat improved. Designs should be better and fabrication is now
usually highly automated and less subject to 'human' error.
$$$ per watt has dropped while even 'entry level' stuff from the likes of EMO are well regarded. MidFi is alive and well with old players like NAD (some higher $$$ stuff, too), Adcom and maybe Parasound all in the hunt.
The lines were never more 'Blurred' than they are today.
We must also address Speakers. They've Really taken off with computer aided design and better quality drivers.....And by quality I mean repeatability during manufacture.
Voicing has improved and todays 2000$ pair is incredibly competitive with stuff from a decade ago selling for 2x or 3x the price.
When I saw the DC-300 we (my company) was using it to drive a VIBRATION TABLE. To test what we made under less than ideal conditions. Not a speaker or souce component to be found!
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 11, 2018 18:36:09 GMT -5
HI rockman85 - LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE, AMIGO! Your BasX A300 won't be bested by anything I've heard for less than $10,000. And NO, that's NOT a typo. The A300 is the best value for the money ever offered by Emotiva, and sounds better than every one of their amps I've heard with the following (few) exceptions: XPA-1, generation 2 XPA-2, genertions 1 or 2 That's it. You already have the best (or at least so close to it that it doesn't matter), so don't spend more money for anything less. Your Pendragons don't need more power. You got lucky and hit the jackpot on the first roll. Now sit back and enjoy the music! Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by rbk123 on Jun 11, 2018 19:47:21 GMT -5
HI rockman85 - LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE, AMIGO! Your BasX A300 won't be bested by anything I've heard for less than $10,000. And NO, that's NOT a typo. The A300 is the best value for the money ever offered by Emotiva, and sounds better than every one of their amps I've heard with the following (few) exceptions: XPA-1, generation 2 XPA-2, genertions 1 or 2 Aren't both of those less than $10,000? |
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Post by leonski on Jun 11, 2018 21:10:43 GMT -5
HI rockman85 - LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE, AMIGO! Your BasX A300 won't be bested by anything I've heard for less than $10,000. And NO, that's NOT a typo. The A300 is the best value for the money ever offered by Emotiva, and sounds better than every one of their amps I've heard with the following (few) exceptions: XPA-1, generation 2 XPA-2, genertions 1 or 2 That's it. You already have the best (or at least so close to it that it doesn't matter), so don't spend more money for anything less. Your Pendragons don't need more power. You got lucky and hit the jackpot on the first roll. Now sit back and enjoy the music! Cordially - Boomzilla I can't let this lie. Bests most up to 10,000$ ?? Is it a good value? Under many conditions, yes, especially for 8 ohm speakers. or of Medium and better sensitivity. But that's a pretty broad statement. I'd LOVE to see how the A-300 stacks up to a Pair of Parasound JC-1 monos. For well under your $$$ limit. IMO, if it WAS that good, by all measures, tests and LISTENING, than it would COST 5x more and still be of value. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 12, 2018 2:37:05 GMT -5
OK - Some hyperbole on my part? Maybe, but not by too much... Yes, the other Emotiva amps I cited CAN sound better, but ONLY with harder-to-drive speakers, and only at higher volumes. The (vast?) majority of current speakers are designed to higher sensitivities and benign impedances so that an AVR can drive them. With such speakers, the A300 is as good (or better) than the bigger amps. There are probably sub-$10K amps that sound better than the A300, but for current speakers (including the easy-to-drive Pendragons), they’d be few and far between!
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Post by leonski on Jun 12, 2018 14:38:20 GMT -5
OK - Some hyperbole on my part? Maybe, but not by too much... Yes, the other Emotiva amps I cited CAN sound better, but ONLY with harder-to-drive speakers, and only at higher volumes. The (vast?) majority of current speakers are designed to higher sensitivities and benign impedances so that an AVR can drive them. With such speakers, the A300 is as good (or better) than the bigger amps. There are probably sub-$10K amps that sound better than the A300, but for current speakers (including the easy-to-drive Pendragons), they’d be few and far between! Good clarification. And while I'll still  the 10k$ figure, that's not really important. I've been known to 'stretch' stuff, too. and Worse! And agreed again. Most speakers for the HT market are really not bad loads, no matter WHAT the owners say or think. My only real beef with the 'A' series amps is the 4ohm power rating @ what is, IMO, an unusable 1% distortion. Stay away from 'redline' and you should be OK Just for example, and even though they are NOT a 'bad load', I could never make the 'A' amps work for my very low sensitivity, 4 ohm panels. |
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Post by adaboy on Jun 12, 2018 17:21:16 GMT -5
OK - Some hyperbole on my part? Maybe, but not by too much... Yes, the other Emotiva amps I cited CAN sound better, but ONLY with harder-to-drive speakers, and only at higher volumes. The (vast?) majority of current speakers are designed to higher sensitivities and benign impedances so that an AVR can drive them. With such speakers, the A300 is as good (or better) than the bigger amps. There are probably sub-$10K amps that sound better than the A300, but for current speakers (including the easy-to-drive Pendragons), they’d be few and far between! Good clarification. And while I'll still the 10k$ figure, that's not really important. I've been known to 'stretch' stuff, too. and Worse! And agreed again. Most speakers for the HT market are really not bad loads, no matter WHAT the owners say or think. My only real beef with the 'A' series amps is the 4ohm power rating @ what is, IMO, an unusable 1% distortion. Stay away from 'redline' and you should be OK Just for example, and even though they are NOT a 'bad load', I could never make the 'A' amps work for my very low sensitivity, 4 ohm panels. I would say that you did a fine job having class A amps heat your home in the winter running your panels. 😋 |
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Post by leonski on Jun 12, 2018 17:39:11 GMT -5
I meant the 'A' series EMO amps. The 1% power rating @4ohms has always been off-putting to me.
My Parasounds are considered 'high bias' but I doubt more than 5 or 6 'Class A' watts per side....X4 for 2 stereo amps!
It gets better with the A21 and can really get serious with the $$$ JC1 series mono amps.
I'm not a 'worrier' about stuff like that.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2018 5:46:11 GMT -5
Hi leonski - I AGREE that 1% distortion @ rated power into 4 ohms isn't a good spec. However, remember that the spec is for full power output - and at that volume, you wouldn't hear the distortion anyway, only the roar. My Thiel cs1.6 speakers are "4-ohm" models with a minimum impedance of 3 ohms AND a complex crossover that has a rep for being exceptionally cruel to amps. Yet the BasX A300 drives them with aplomb. So I'm "not a worrier" about the high distortion at maximum output at 4 ohms either - it's a (mostly) irrelevant spec. Cheers - Boom |
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Post by vcautokid on Jun 13, 2018 5:59:47 GMT -5
Yep my experience with two or more drivecore XLS models revealed them to sound rather mediocre even at moderate volume levels. On my axioms they sounded shouty and did not sound like their response was even feeling like there was a hole in the response. All the Emotiva amps however had a full sound with a top to bottom balance. P.S. if you get a chance to try an XPA-2 gen 1 or two you'll find yourself quite surprised. Not a gen 3 though which doesn't sound the same to me. Well when you look at the Crown's intended use for large venues and to project vividly and be driven all day long. It is not surprising it sounds the way it does. Purpose of use here folks. You are using what is effectively a sound reinforcement amplifer here. So it is doing what it is supposed to do. Of course the Bas-X 300 is more musical. It is for your home, hence tuned for that environment. It is not going to drive PA speakers in a large venue like a Crown or QSC or Quest or any of their breathren would anytime soon. Technology used in its correct place is a beautiful thing. |
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Post by Vespid on Jun 13, 2018 21:54:32 GMT -5
Yep my experience with two or more drivecore XLS models revealed them to sound rather mediocre even at moderate volume levels. On my axioms they sounded shouty and did not sound like their response was even feeling like there was a hole in the response. All the Emotiva amps however had a full sound with a top to bottom balance. P.S. if you get a chance to try an XPA-2 gen 1 or two you'll find yourself quite surprised. Not a gen 3 though which doesn't sound the same to me. I fear the next step up would have to justify some extreme step in quality. I.E. if I ever upgrade again it will probably be to monoblocks, which will have to be the DR1 since they are discontinuing the XPA1. If you ever do dip in the monoblock pool, I would suggest you consider the Emotiva UPA-1's, if you can find someone willing to part with them for whatever reason. There is a reason you rarely see them 4 sale. IMHO, one of the best bang for the buck amps since some circa early 80's Carver amps. Also, for two channel, I agree with garbulky, XPA-2 gen 1 is exceptional and hard to beat for the price. Of course, if you have the funds and the opportunity to acquire some DR-1's, by all means. |
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the 10k$ figure, that's not really important. I've been known to 'stretch' stuff, too. and Worse!
