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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 10, 2018 21:03:59 GMT -5
several times in fact, "we can't take it with us so spend". Didn't have to think twice about that so earlier in the week I ordered a pair of power cords, and a pair of balanced interconnects from Triode Wire Labs ( https://www.triodewirelabs.com ). I picked them up yesterday and installed the power cords today. I'll report back but I'll just say for now an immediate improvement in the sound in many areas. Russ   |
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 11, 2018 10:28:21 GMT -5
several times in fact, "we can't take it with us so spend". Didn't have to think twice about that so earlier in the week I ordered a pair of power cords, and a pair of balanced interconnects from Triode Wire Labs ( https://www.triodewirelabs.com ). I picked them up yesterday and installed the power cords today. I'll report back but I'll just say for now an immediate improvement in the sound in many areas. Russ No offense intended whatsoever.....but not a chance of this. We need wires to bridge that physical distance and as long as they are of the correct electrical value, the sound should not change. That being said, audio fans who overspend on wires ALWAYS hear what they say they they hear 👂 Bill |
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Post by liv2teach on Jun 11, 2018 11:16:08 GMT -5
several times in fact, "we can't take it with us so spend". Didn't have to think twice about that so earlier in the week I ordered a pair of power cords, and a pair of balanced interconnects from Triode Wire Labs ( https://www.triodewirelabs.com ). I picked them up yesterday and installed the power cords today. I'll report back but I'll just say for now an immediate improvement in the sound in many areas. Russ No offense intended whatsoever.....but not a chance of this. We need wires to bridge that physical distance and as long as they are of the correct electrical value, the sound should not change. That being said, audio fans who overspend on wires ALWAYS hear what they say they they hear 👂 Bill This would be a great topic for a new thread... I never get tired of the old, "Do wires make a difference?" debate. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 11, 2018 11:27:47 GMT -5
... I never get tired of the old, "Do wires make a difference?" debate. I do ...  |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 11, 2018 11:52:49 GMT -5
Glad you are enjoying it. Like a lot of people, I tend to be a little skeptical of the wires making a difference. But I haven't had enough experience in them to know if they do or not.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 11, 2018 12:14:29 GMT -5
To all. They’re cables not wires. Cables have R, L, C, dielectric, geometry, etc. So they certainly can sound different, maybe better, maybe worse. The PERFECT cable is a wire.
The new Belden Iconoclast cables are an all out assault on reducing a cable to a wire but at a rather high cost (for now). The Omega Micro cables are another (high cost) attempt to do the same.
As a BSEE, MSEE I’ve been a skeptic too but I heard the TWL cables in the systems of seven friends and liked what I heard so I jumped in. The improvement due to the power cords were immediately obvious. I’ll add the XLRs in a few days.
Russ
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Post by garbulky on Jun 11, 2018 12:20:47 GMT -5
To all. They’re cables not wires. Cables have R, L, C, dielectric, geometry, etc. So they certainly can sound different, maybe better, maybe worse. The PERFECT cable is a wire. The new Belden Iconoclast cables are an all out assault on reducing a cable to a wire but at a rather high cost (for now). The Omega Micro cables are another (high cost) attempt to do the same. As a BSEE, MSEE I’ve been a skeptic too but I heard the TWL cables in the systems of seven friends and liked what I heard so I jumped in. The improvement due to the power cords were immediately obvious. I’ll add the XLRs in a few days. Russ You're an electric engineer?!! Wow! |
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Post by adaboy on Jun 11, 2018 12:28:29 GMT -5
To all. They’re cables not wires. Cables have R, L, C, dielectric, geometry, etc. So they certainly can sound different, maybe better, maybe worse. The PERFECT cable is a wire. The new Belden Iconoclast cables are an all out assault on reducing a cable to a wire but at a rather high cost (for now). The Omega Micro cables are another (high cost) attempt to do the same. As a BSEE, MSEE I’ve been a skeptic too but I heard the TWL cables in the systems of seven friends and liked what I heard so I jumped in. The improvement due to the power cords were immediately obvious. I’ll add the XLRs in a few days. Russ I agree you can hear differences swapping cables and speaker cables better or worse. I became a believer when I got my first set of Maggie's. Tried short snakes vs emotiva speaker cables and the snakes attenuated the treble vs the emotiva cables. Really a simple test that anyone can do. 2 channel listening makes it easier to discern. |
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Post by routlaw on Jun 11, 2018 12:43:38 GMT -5
This will be a tough crowd to convince them with your perceived results, and normally I don't touch these conversations with a 10 foot pole, even though I do believe that wire can or does make a difference. I also think in most cases they are tone controls in various ways. And at least some of them will perform or sound better than others, but only for a period time, until of course one grows tired of that signature and exchanges it for another. For anyone doubting this, then how do you justify or explain the monumentally huge new and used wire market? The offerings are staggering.
Worse yet from what I can determine the vast majority of manufactured audiophile wire appears to have little to do with science and measurements unfortunately. If it were up to me the industry should be forced to provide measurements and data supporting their claims in the same way most other audio manufacturers of amps, pre amps, speakers, etc do with their specs. Emotiva takes it another step and provides true measurement data and graphs for all of their products or at least most of them. Good on them!
Recently I have read work done by an engineer, Galen Gareis, working for Belden who was in charge of "scientifically" designing audiophile quality wire in the form of interconnects both RCA and XLR as well as speaker cables. The amount of science and measurements put forth into this effort are nothing short of thorough and exhaustive, yet convincing at least to this cynic and skeptic. The cables are called Iconoclast. I don't own any of them, they are not cheap, nor do I have any association with or connection to Belden but from all reports they perform admirably. Their sonic signature being neutral is apparently quite evident. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts the vast majority of wire for the audio community has never had a pair of test prongs put to their cable ends.
In most cases it would appear a good many cable companies do nothing more than purchase off the shelve wire from various manufacturers be it Belden or others, do nothing more than terminate them appropriately, install an attractive looking sleeve over the cable then mark them up at a price that would make jewelry and watch makers blush. Of course there are exceptions to this but suspect its a minority of cable companies.
In the meantime Russ, enjoy your new cables!
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 11, 2018 12:58:46 GMT -5
Thanks Routlaw. I’ve read all of Galen’s white papers. A bit difficult in some places but he never actually says they sound better. His implication is that he’s trying to come as close as possible to a wire.
Another friend has a complete Iconoclast loom on loan. We’re going to hear them at the end of the month at our June club meeting. He’s very excited by them.
Russ
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Post by routlaw on Jun 11, 2018 13:08:50 GMT -5
A quick clarification, didn't mean to state Galen claimed anything other than their scientific approach, it was others who have bellied up to the bar and purchased them stating their sonic attributes is what I should have written.
Also just to continue the wire debate in other areas I have also seen some very scientific work with subsequent measurements dealing other digital cables mostly USB. I never learned until recently that USB specs are supposed to be a 90 ohm impedance but most of them are wildly out of spec in this regard. I have seen the graphs as proof. Same with digital coax many not adhering to their 75 ohm impedance mainly due to incorrect termination and connectors.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 11, 2018 13:18:38 GMT -5
To all. They’re cables not wires. Cables have R, L, C, dielectric, geometry, etc. So they certainly can sound different, maybe better, maybe worse. The PERFECT cable is a wire. The new Belden Iconoclast cables are an all out assault on reducing a cable to a wire but at a rather high cost (for now). The Omega Micro cables are another (high cost) attempt to do the same. As a BSEE, MSEE I’ve been a skeptic too but I heard the TWL cables in the systems of seven friends and liked what I heard so I jumped in. The improvement due to the power cords were immediately obvious. I’ll add the XLRs in a few days. Russ You are skewing the obvious (lol!) All of us here know you are talking about that conductive STUFF inside be it any type of cable /connector. The time honored ploy many of the high end snake 🐍 oil companies use to argue their claims is to create “measurable” differences. However inaudible, it can be done with a very convincing marketing strategy to follow along. Bill |
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Post by liv2teach on Jun 11, 2018 13:51:35 GMT -5
Thanks Routlaw. I’ve read all of Galen’s white papers. A bit difficult in some places but he never actually says they sound better. His implication is that he’s trying to come as close as possible to a wire. Another friend has a complete Iconoclast loom on loan. We’re going to hear them at the end of the month at our June club meeting. He’s very excited by them. Russ Where does one even find, or shop for, Iconoclast cables? |
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Post by routlaw on Jun 11, 2018 14:13:11 GMT -5
Below is the contact link for the national sales manager, Bob Howard. He can provide you with prices and perhaps all of the white papers previously discussed. If not then try Galen's contact info also below.
Bob.Howard@Belden.Com
Galen.Gareis@belden.com
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Post by creimes on Jun 11, 2018 14:44:35 GMT -5
It's one thing for someone to hear a difference in different cables which is a whole topic on it's own, what I find ridiculous is one would spend so much on something so little, I understand there is engineering and testing and what have you but to spend $5000 on a set of XLR cables is IMO one of the biggest scams out there, I purchased an XPA-2 from a gentleman who had a $1000 power cord hooked up to it, was worth more than the amplifier, as a regular Joe I cannot fathom a 2ft power cable costing more to develop and make than a 80lb 2 channel amp.
Chad
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Post by rbk123 on Jun 11, 2018 14:54:49 GMT -5
The Triod's range from $250-1400 for 1 power cord. They sure have an odd definition of "affordable" and "everyday prices". I won't rule out that they could improve the sound but every snake-oil cable seller always has these 2 characteristics:
- extremely high price
- no free trial period (like Emo)
I'd be willing to give a high end cord a shot if I could return it for full refund if I couldn't hear a difference/difference wasn't great enough to warrant the price.
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Post by 405x5 on Jun 11, 2018 15:01:54 GMT -5
It's one thing for someone to hear a difference in different cables which is a whole topic on it's own, what I find ridiculous is one would spend so much on something so little, I understand there is engineering and testing and what have you but to spend $5000 on a set of XLR cables is IMO one of the biggest scams out there, I purchased an XPA-2 from a gentleman who had a $1000 power cord hooked up to it, was worth more than the amplifier, as a regular Joe I cannot fathom a 2ft power cable costing more to develop and make than a 80lb 2 channel amp. Chad Right on target 🎯. I took another look at the OP’s high end website. They should rename it : bendoverandgrabyourankles.com ....and so it goes. It’s interesting that this stuff finds its way to a forum sponsored by a company that puts out some of the most cost effective equipment on the face of the planet. Bill |
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Post by creimes on Jun 11, 2018 15:54:41 GMT -5
It's one thing for someone to hear a difference in different cables which is a whole topic on it's own, what I find ridiculous is one would spend so much on something so little, I understand there is engineering and testing and what have you but to spend $5000 on a set of XLR cables is IMO one of the biggest scams out there, I purchased an XPA-2 from a gentleman who had a $1000 power cord hooked up to it, was worth more than the amplifier, as a regular Joe I cannot fathom a 2ft power cable costing more to develop and make than a 80lb 2 channel amp. Chad Right on target 🎯. I took another look at the OP’s high end website. They should rename it : bendoverandgrabyourankles.com ....and so it goes. It’s interesting that this stuff finds its way to a forum sponsored by a company that puts out some of the most cost effective equipment on the face of the planet. Bill I mean to each there own on what they want to spend their money on, I just don't understand the prices of these things, I mean it's for the most part copper wiring which I know is going up but yowza's not $500 a foot lol |
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Post by adaboy on Jun 11, 2018 16:17:26 GMT -5
Right on target 🎯. I took another look at the OP’s high end website. They should rename it : bendoverandgrabyourankles.com ....and so it goes. It’s interesting that this stuff finds its way to a forum sponsored by a company that puts out some of the most cost effective equipment on the face of the planet. Bill I mean to each there own on what they want to spend their money on, I just don't understand the prices of these things, I mean it's for the most part copper wiring which I know is going up but yowza's not $500 a foot lol I agree, I'd never spend that kind of cash on cables, I find the used market to be quite acceptable and most times you can try them before you buy them. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 11, 2018 16:22:06 GMT -5
The one meter XLRs go for $499 a pair. The Cardas connectors for the pair cost more than $110 by themselves. The power cords use Furutech connectors which also are not cheap.
Russ
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