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Post by rbk123 on Jul 10, 2018 14:54:39 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Jul 10, 2018 15:49:39 GMT -5
His proof: 2.5 db at a trade show environment using an undercover microphone. Come on now. Has anybody been to a trade show?! Do you think that the level of noise doesn't vary by 2.5 db? Also how did he get his base value? It was likely not from a sine wave. I'm guessing they used music to evaluate.
Also his other proof, some dude using his smartphone SPL meter.
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Post by geebo on Jul 10, 2018 16:18:39 GMT -5
Mark Waldrop is no idiot. He knows what he's doing and yes, you could easily measure a 2.5dB difference in average SPL. I would put way more credence in what he has to say over someone who stands to gain by keeping the snake oil companies happy and who is receiving those (high priced) door prizes to give away (or keep).
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Post by garbulky on Jul 10, 2018 16:24:19 GMT -5
Mark Waldrop is no idiot. He knows what he's doing and yes, you could easily measure a 2.5dB difference in average SPL. In a trade room floor setting? |
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Post by geebo on Jul 10, 2018 16:33:29 GMT -5
Mark Waldrop is no idiot. He knows what he's doing and yes, you could easily measure a 2.5dB difference in average SPL. In a trade room floor setting? Absolutely. They will get their listening areas as quiet as possible so they may show off their wares. Many have their own hotel rooms for that purpose. And if the noise is so great how could people possibly could hear the difference in power cords? |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 10, 2018 16:38:13 GMT -5
In a trade room floor setting? Absolutely. They will get their listening areas as quiet as possible so they may show off their wares. Many have their own hotel rooms for that purpose. And if the noise is so great how could people possibly could hear the difference in power cords? That stretches credibility to me that one can get a reliable measurement with all the hubub of the floor. Especially one like 2.5 db. Most reasonable speakers are rated at +/- 3db which is a 6 db swing. Now the claim that power cables sound better also stretches credibility. But heck we hear that kind of stuff every day so it's not as interesting. |
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Post by geebo on Jul 10, 2018 16:43:42 GMT -5
Absolutely. They will get their listening areas as quiet as possible so they may show off their wares. Many have their own hotel rooms for that purpose. And if the noise is so great how could people possibly could hear the difference in power cords? That stretches credibility to me that one can get a reliable measurement with all the hubub of the floor. Especially one like 2.5 db. Most reasonable speakers are rated at +/- 3db which is a 6 db swing. Now the claim that power cables sound better also stretches credibility. But heck we hear that kind of stuff every day so it's not as interesting. And Mr. Waldrop just wouldn't let them get away with their outlandish claims. It's WAY more feasible that you could measure a 2.5dB average volume difference with an electronic measurement device than being able to hear a difference with a different power cord. Indeed, the people doing the demo were banking on the audience being able to hear a difference. Otherwise there would be no point in it. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 10, 2018 17:19:35 GMT -5
That stretches credibility to me that one can get a reliable measurement with all the hubub of the floor. Especially one like 2.5 db. Most reasonable speakers are rated at +/- 3db which is a 6 db swing. Now the claim that power cables sound better also stretches credibility. But heck we hear that kind of stuff every day so it's not as interesting. And Mr. Waldrop just wouldn't let them get away with their outlandish claims. It's WAY more feasible that you could measure a 2.5dB average volume difference with an electronic measurement device than being able to hear a difference with a different power cord. Indeed, the people doing the demo were banking on the audience being able to hear a difference. Otherwise there would be no point in it. What I'm saying is can you attribute the 2.5 db difference to the speakers or other noise in a show setting? I mean he wasn't sticking that mic right at the speaker. He was somewhere in the audience with his mic "undercover". All we get of his "proof" is that there was a microphone somewhere that he says he recorded with. Not a lot of details given in his test setup. That smacks to me of unreliable measurements. I don't think we can rely on some random measurement in such an uncontrolled setting. I think this is an expectation bias. We expect there to be no difference in power cord because it doesn't make sense that there would be one due to cable properties. Now we see some measurement taken in questionable condition and we instictively say that the reason is the test is sabotaged. For instance, there needs not be ANY volume difference or any audible difference at all for people to subjectively say, oh yeah this is better. They could just be prone to expectation bias. It's one of the cons of subjective listening. No need for a test sabotage. Also of course, the power cords may actually sound better, somehow. I don't know. I haven't heard a difference. But he is using a shaky measurement to slander people. I don't think it lives through in reality. Now if he was measuring the output of the power amps then I think he would have a stronger case. He could also have looked to see if there was a volume scale on the preamps to see if that number changed. If the number changed and he had pictures of this, then even better proof. |
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Post by socketman on Jul 10, 2018 17:26:58 GMT -5
Just go out to the power meter an open the tap wider. You could also have your wires raised up at the pole , more gravity feed.
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Post by geebo on Jul 10, 2018 17:28:42 GMT -5
And Mr. Waldrop just wouldn't let them get away with their outlandish claims. It's WAY more feasible that you could measure a 2.5dB average volume difference with an electronic measurement device than being able to hear a difference with a different power cord. Indeed, the people doing the demo were banking on the audience being able to hear a difference. Otherwise there would be no point in it. What I'm saying is can you attribute the 2.5 db difference to the speakers or other noise in a show setting? I mean he wasn't sticking that mic right at the speaker. He was somewhere in the audience with his mic "undercover". All we get of his "proof" is that there was a microphone somewhere that he says he recorded with. Not a lot of details given in his test setup. That smacks to me of unreliable measurements. I don't think we can rely on some random measurement in such an uncontrolled setting. I think this is an expectation bias. We expect there to be no difference in power cord because it doesn't make sense that there would be one due to cable properties. Now we see some measurement taken in questionable condition and we instictively say that the reason is the test is sabotaged. For instance, there needs not be ANY volume difference or any audible difference at all for people to subjectively say, oh yeah this is better. They could just be prone to expectation bias. It's one of the cons of subjective listening. No need for a test sabotage. Also of course, the power cords may actually sound better, somehow. I don't know. I haven't heard a difference. If you were going to hold such a demo would you opt for a noisy environment? And we don't know that it was noisy in the first place. Like I said, many companies will use more isolated hotel rooms for their audio demos. And I would think Mr. Waldron would have access to some high quality measurement devices although even an uncalibrated cell phone could detect relative differences of 2.5dB. A question to ask is who has more to gain in this situation? The people getting free gifts, the people selling the product or someone that only wants people to be made aware of some possible shenanigans. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 10, 2018 17:52:19 GMT -5
I subscribe to Mark Waldrep's AIX newsletter and he's a straight shooter. The results from his business speak for themselves as well - the high fidelity recordings he releases.
If he says he noted an increase in db's, I believe him and I trust that he would use credible equipment to back up his claim. He documented how he reached his findings. I also find his subsequent exchange with Bob Levi of the L.A./O.C. Audio Society to be credible as well. His responses are entirely sensible whereas Bob's sound like someone who has to worry about politics and keeping his "customers" happy.
I get e-mails from Bob announcing upcoming Society events and normally the door prizes are pretty much always cables that have astonishingly high "retail" values, things which in my opinion a manufacturer can more easily donate as a prize because it won't set them back as much as something that truly has a significant cost of materials. If I'm going to believe someone between Bob and Mark, I'd choose Mark every time.
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Post by rbk123 on Jul 11, 2018 8:48:36 GMT -5
What I'm saying is can you attribute the 2.5 db difference to the speakers or other noise in a show setting? If it were so noisy how could people possibly hear any difference between a cable change, which at best would be subtle and subsequently drowned out entirely by all the noise you state? Who demos audio in a loud setting? That's like demoing video in a fully lit room. If it were so unreliably noisy, why wouldn't his measurements be all over the place? Not just higher but lower during lulls, etc..? 2 people, with non-ideal recording devices, coming back with the same results? If it were so unreliably noisy, why wouldn't they differ substantially? If it were me, after taking the measurements secretly, I would have attempted to take the measurements openly and see if they would allow me to do so. After all, if it was legit why would they oppose it? But I'd bet that they made a big spiel in advance saying no phones/microphones/etc... would be allowed. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 11, 2018 10:08:39 GMT -5
What I'm saying is can you attribute the 2.5 db difference to the speakers or other noise in a show setting? If it were so noisy how could people possibly hear any difference between a cable change, which at best would be subtle and subsequently drowned out entirely by all the noise you state? Who demos audio in a loud setting? That's like demoing video in a fully lit room. If it were so unreliably noisy, why wouldn't his measurements be all over the place? Not just higher but lower during lulls, etc..? 2 people, with non-ideal recording devices, coming back with the same results? If it were so unreliably noisy, why wouldn't they differ substantially? If it were me, after taking the measurements secretly, I would have attempted to take the measurements openly and see if they would allow me to do so. After all, if it was legit why would they oppose it? But I'd bet that they made a big spiel in advance saying no phones/microphones/etc... would be allowed. Well let's reverse it. Let's say the cable experiment is legitimate. But the measurement was done by the person putting on the test to claim that other power cords dampen the power output. (I don't buy that but it's a hypotehtical). Then he uses this as proof. Some undercover microphone in a showroom setting and says its 2.5 db louder. Would you buy it? Is that the proof you'd accept? Not me. Well I haven't heard a significant difference between cables so I wouldn't know what a difference like that sounds like. But the simple answer to the question is that the ear and brain isn't an SPL meter. I've been able to tell which music instrument sounds better even in noisy environments. Been able to appreciate music performances even with audience coughing and talking, baby crying etc. So though a background level is detrimental, it's not detrimental in nearly the same way. |
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Post by rbk123 on Jul 11, 2018 10:18:43 GMT -5
Well let's reverse it. Let's say the cable experiment is legitimate. But the measurement was done by the person putting on the test to claim that other power cords dampen the power output. (I don't buy that but it's a hypotehtical). Then he uses this as proof. Some undercover microphone in a showroom setting and says its 2.5 db louder. Would you buy it? Is that the proof you'd accept? Not me. If the "he" were an independent 3rd party who had nothing to gain either way? Probably. And I'd like to see someone replicate the test more precisely to confirm, which I also hope they are doing now. Enjoying music with background noise, or picking out different musical instruments is hardly equivalent to listening critically for subtle differences between the exact same source. Not buying that one. However to your point if true, then it should be more than obvious to their ears that one is 2.5db louder than the other. One instrument being that much louder would be a piece of cake for you to pick out. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 11, 2018 10:45:46 GMT -5
A trade or audio show isn't a great place to critically evaluate equipment because of all the activity going on. However, I would think that if someone selling "upgraded" power cords is going to put on a demo to prove its superiority, it would be done in a controlled environment in which the noise level was kept as low as possible. They would probably close the doors and ask everyone to be quiet. When you're demoing really expensive stuff, people want to hear it as best they can and thus it is unlikely you're going to have distractions in the room.
For example, at the T.H.E. Show I attended in Newport Beach I visited Emo's room and really could not get a good handle on their equipment because people were going in and out and there were too many distractions. But they were doing their demonstrations informally. I visited a room that was demoing some expensive Wilson speakers and that was more controlled. They did a formal demonstration and it was very quiet in there, so that provided a better environment to hear what was going on.
Of course I wasn't there but having read Mark Waldrep's articles and knowing how fussy he is about fidelity and maintaining integrity, I would put credence in what he does and reports.
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