KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Oct 23, 2018 16:53:43 GMT -5
Let's continue the current discussion, started in the RMC-1 group, here... For anyone who hasn't heard about this.... We've started to see Blu-Ray discs that state that they are "7.1.4 channel Atmos". And Disney Studios has pretty well said that they plan to use this format for all or most future releases.
As far as we know, this means that they are "pre-rendered" to play specifically on systems that support Atmos 7.1.4. However, exact details about what's involved are somewhat sketchy.
And, so far, we haven't heard much about how some of these discs actually sound.
What exactly does this mean? How does it work? Are those discs really optimized to work better than ordinary Atmos discs on 7.1.4 channel systems? Are they really limited in such a way that they are unable to take advantage of systems with more channels?
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 23, 2018 19:22:42 GMT -5
I would add that streamed Atmos seems to be commonly redered over Dolby Digital+ whereas discs are over Dolby True HD 7.1. This makes them sound copmressed and lossy in a direct A/B comparison to the disc versions of the same movie.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 28, 2018 18:26:22 GMT -5
Gary, lets continue this over here. You have continued to completely ignore my requests to stop discussing Atmos in the RMC thread even after I asked you and others to stop. Admin needs to delete your last post there like they said they would, and, you should copy it and post it here before they do, since it is relevant discussion, just in the wrong thread.
Okay, onward.
To your last post there, that may well be true for 7.1.4 pinned discs from Disney, but, I do not believe its true for discs simply labeled as Atmos. I have rented several of those discs from Red Box. According to Lonnie and Keith, it works in the office on non-pinned discs. I have no reason not to believe them.
I totally agree, I think Dolby is putting on the ban because they have the bigger name and the "worser" product as my buddy used to say facetiously. They got burned on regular Blu-rays when companies used DTS-Master instead. The ban totally sucks for us consumers.
There is a tremendous difference between Dolby and DTS in my room. When I played the new Blade Runner on my non-Atmos system, the Atmos version (which should play as Dolby True 7.1) sounded like crap. When I played the DTS-Master 5.1 version, it was MUCH better. When I say the Dolby version sounded like crap, I don't mean in comparison, I mean I found it so bad it distracted my movie watching experience. It was annoying.
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 28, 2018 21:48:29 GMT -5
So DSU does not even work on discs labeled as Atmos? Not pinned 7.1.4, just Atmos? Does that not defeat the entire purpose and scheme of Atmos in general? So even if you have a 7.1.8 system, you will never get more than the actual disc provides for even with upmixing?
This entire Atmos thing is destined for complete failure because Dolby has made deciphering what it does or doesn't do way too complicated. Even people like us who care can't figure it all out or get it straight. If normal people can't get it, it will fail.
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Post by cwt on Dec 28, 2018 23:15:36 GMT -5
So DSU does not even work on discs labeled as Atmos? Not pinned 7.1.4, just Atmos? Does that not defeat the entire purpose and scheme of Atmos in general? So even if you have a 7.1.8 system, you will never get more than the actual disc provides for even with upmixing? This entire Atmos thing is destined for complete failure because Dolby has made deciphering what it does or doesn't do way too complicated. Even people like us who care can't figure it all out or get it straight. Bonzo ; 2 points here ; its not logical to want to apply a dsp algorithm that uses phase and steering different to something that uses object decoding to precisely position sounds which may for example be enlarged or sent to speakers that aren't in the others configuration ie wides aren't allowed with DSU  Its the old message ; whats better discrete or not . A dsp mode cant read atmos metadata . No2 ;for the same reason dts neural cant be applied to dts-x by the RMC1 ;the X includes neural X . Normal people are happy with dvd's ; atmos is a nitch within a bluray nitch ; just like UHD blurays are - but how long have we had those ?? And why do the studios cleverly put the object soundtracks on UHD rather than BD ? steering us enthusiasts towards the new big thing  An interesting read about the expansion of mixing options as atmos expands into streaming ;tv etc www.mixonline.com/technology/dolby-atmos-the-business-and-the-technology |
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Post by socketman on Dec 29, 2018 1:52:39 GMT -5
It is truly sad and deceptive that we enthusiasts were enticed with unlimited channels based on Atmos being able to detect and make use of multiple speakers. Now Dolby changes the rules and studio's like Disney bend them and the people with the hardware suffer the consequences. Seems to me this is anti competitive behavior same was M$ was accused of. Honestly , i decided to stick with 5.1 for my room size, sadly i bought a expensive 6 channel amp before i decided,but happy with my decision.
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Post by novisnick on Dec 29, 2018 2:54:53 GMT -5
So thats it? 7.1.4,
What are all the other channels for? Useless? Waisted?
What good are 28 channels if they play nothing?
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 29, 2018 5:14:42 GMT -5
It is truly sad and deceptive that we enthusiasts were enticed with unlimited channels based on Atmos being able to detect and make use of multiple speakers. Now Dolby changes the rules and studio's like Disney bend them and the people with the hardware suffer the consequences. Seems to me this is anti competitive behavior same was M$ was accused of. Honestly , i decided to stick with 5.1 for my room size, sadly i bought a expensive 6 channel amp before i decided,but happy with my decision. My view is that the movie studios have decided that streaming is the future and that disc sales are rapidly becoming the past. This means that what they produce has to fit into limited bandwidth. With 4K already becoming the default for TV sales, producing video content for 4K is a must have. That consumes streaming bandwidth (and space on a disc), which means less left available for audio. I have always believed that any comparison between Cinema Atmos (CA) and Home Theatre Atmos (HTA) is a complete waste of time. They are totally different products, mastered using completely different Dolby software on completely different hardware. In the case of CA, hardware that is supplied via Dolby. With the above in mind Dolby have simply supplied what the movie studios asked for, pinned 7.1.4, which makes Atmos the same as DTS-X. Although we can debate the sound quality of DTS-X versus Atmos pinned 7.1.4, a subject for another day. The way I see it Dolby’s biggest fear is losing the battle with DTS yet again. With DTS-X software being free for movie studios, not requiring special hardware, Neural being technically superior and DTS-X consuming considerably less bandwidth (and disc space) than Atmos, Dolby could see it happening all over again. Hence why Dolby’s no 3rd party (meaning DTS) upmixing fits into the overall strategy. A simple analysis of Dolby’s actions over the last couple of years reveals their #1 aim, beat DTS. They don’t really care much about a minuscule minority of HT Atmos consumers with more than 7.1.4 systems. Happy New Year Gary |
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 29, 2018 9:38:57 GMT -5
So the entity at fault for a devolved home immersion sound experience is DTS, not Dolby. DTS is a parasitic company and has been since their creation. Specifically they wait until Dolby makes a new product, then they look at marketing, pricing, and mixing simplification ways to under cut Dolby, sell the major source creating entities on the savings. In the past they also upped the bit rates for the sole purpose of one upping Dolby, who then responded with a higher bit rate version of their own. Auro is a non competitor here, with a technically inferior product that only hangs on because of European egotism. What we need is a supplier like Criterion used to be for laser discs, who will go to the extreme to provide the highest quality reproduction for the home market. The market that appreciates state of the art best is always limited so the price of such products is high.
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 890
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Post by richb on Dec 29, 2018 11:34:33 GMT -5
So the entity at fault for a devolved home immersion sound experience is DTS, not Dolby. DTS is a parasitic company and has been since their creation. Specifically they wait until Dolby makes a new product, then they look at marketing, pricing, and mixing simplification ways to under cut Dolby, sell the major source creating entities on the savings. In the past they also upped the bit rates for the sole purpose of one upping Dolby, who then responded with a higher bit rate version of their own. Auro is a non competitor here, with a technically inferior product that only hangs on because of European egotism. What we need is a supplier like Criterion used to be for laser discs, who will go to the extreme to provide the highest quality reproduction for the home market. The market that appreciates state of the art best is always limited so the price of such products is high. DTS may do what you say but that is what the marketplace is about, competition. There is nothing wrong with higher bitrates. Thank you DTS Dolby Atmos is an good technology but they jumped the shark with up-firing speakers. Now, we have Atmos sound bars  It's hard to take those products seriously, but they'll sell at Best Buy. Dolby and DTS have implemented up=mixer restrictions which are likely aimed at quashing each other but will eventually eradicate Auro. Streaming is moving forward and with a good internet connection, is better than broadcast in both video and audio quality (at least on FIOS). UHD Video is certainly better than SDR BD. 7.1.4 may be a limitation but it is doubtful that this matters to producers the number of customers impacted is so small. IMO, Disney is turning out 4K titles but the quality is just not matching title from WB and Sony. The Black Panther (WB DV) was incredible but Star Wars the last Jedi (Disney DV) was meh. Spiderman Homecoming (Sony DV) and Justice League (WB DV) are both reference quality. If major producers are cutting corners on the Video, then that is bad news for the audio. Complaints are arising about the lack of significant LFE on some titles. I have Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle on 4K DV BD and Apple 4K and the resolution is better on the 4K BD but not as much as I would have thought. The Audio mix on the disk was not as aggressive. I had the center (not intentionally) set to large and streamed it actually made the Voice2 distort. It sounded like the woofers had reached their limit. In 5 years, that has never happened and it did not happen playing the disk. Also, the sound when a player used a life was much better on the streamed version. Even on my 5.1 system, it seemed to be coming from everywhere (even above). Perhaps, the only hope is for reviewers to start pointing out reference material from titles that are churning out the 4K titles with minimum effort and deviation from the other masters. SWTLJ was at best a "C+" 4K BD but got "A" five star reviews. Apparently, the reviewers forgot the cinema experience. Compared to the cinema this title was completely unremarkable for color reproduction, resolution, and sound quality. - Rich |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 29, 2018 12:11:44 GMT -5
So thats it? 7.1.4, What are all the other channels for? Useless? Waisted? What good are 28 channels if they play nothing? I think that's the basic question. It seems to me that, at this time, going anymore than .4 is taking a gamble. If DSU and Neural can't read Atmos and DTS-X, then what ever those discs have is stuck. Disney accounts for a lot of movies. If streaming follows suit, that's a lot of movies. And what if other studios follow? That's a lot of material that is stuck at .4. I dunno, that's why I'm here, trying to figure it out myself. |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 29, 2018 12:14:41 GMT -5
So DSU does not even work on discs labeled as Atmos? Not pinned 7.1.4, just Atmos? Does that not defeat the entire purpose and scheme of Atmos in general? So even if you have a 7.1.8 system, you will never get more than the actual disc provides for even with upmixing? This entire Atmos thing is destined for complete failure because Dolby has made deciphering what it does or doesn't do way too complicated. Even people like us who care can't figure it all out or get it straight. Bonzo ; 2 points here ; its not logical to want to apply a dsp algorithm that uses phase and steering different to something that uses object decoding to precisely position sounds which may for example be enlarged or sent to speakers that aren't in the others configuration ie wides aren't allowed with DSU Its the old message ; whats better discrete or not . A dsp mode cant read atmos metadata . No2 ;for the same reason dts neural cant be applied to dts-x by the RMC1 ;the X includes neural X . Normal people are happy with dvd's ; atmos is a nitch within a bluray nitch ; just like UHD blurays are - but how long have we had those ?? And why do the studios cleverly put the object soundtracks on UHD rather than BD ? steering us enthusiasts towards the new big thing An interesting read about the expansion of mixing options as atmos expands into streaming ;tv etc www.mixonline.com/technology/dolby-atmos-the-business-and-the-technologyI got cha. Thanks. I think my problem is that I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around things because things either aren't explained well, or things keep changing, or people keep saying different things and no one seems to know for sure. There have been some very informative posts recently (as was yours) and I'd really like more of that. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 29, 2018 16:11:58 GMT -5
Moved from the RMC-1 thread to this one..... There is 9.1.6 support for objects and there will be 11.1.8 support for objects. People are dissatisfied with how active the speakers are but there is support. I’d just like to see the speakers utilized more and give us some options to do it ourselves if there are not Atmos and DTS processing updates that do it for us. One major thing would be to make bed arrays through all speakers at least at ear level. It doesn’t make sense not to. The objects are what are meant to be discrete in nature anyways. Mine as well use the other speakers for a diffuse sound field. I've never claimed to have tried every 4K Atmos movie, but of the 30 or so I have tried I haven't found one, not a single one, that is 9.1.6 or 11.1.8. Plainly that involves my taste in movies and maybe also that I'm in Australia and it's possible that we aren't getting local releases more than 7.1.4. I've asked many times in many threads for a genuine 9.1.6 movie that I can try, so far no luck. Happy New Year Gary |
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Post by lrobertson on Dec 29, 2018 16:27:56 GMT -5
I’ve heard of 9.1.6 support but I’ve also heard content doesn’t usually come from those additional speakers but is very content specific and some movies do make more use of them. They tested it on avsforum. If it’s not pinned it’s capable of more. Look at the trinnov forum.
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Post by socketman on Dec 29, 2018 16:46:01 GMT -5
Not much chance for the average joe to make a fair comparison between what you hear when you get to the theater and when you set up at home. I highly doubt i would ever go past 7.1.4 any way so for me there is no issue other than false advertising. All my fun money is going to my car now so i will be happy with what i have. Time to sell off my amp and put the funds into my blower funds jar.
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 29, 2018 17:10:34 GMT -5
Moved from the RMC-1 thread to this one..... There is 9.1.6 support for objects and there will be 11.1.8 support for objects. People are dissatisfied with how active the speakers are but there is support. I’d just like to see the speakers utilized more and give us some options to do it ourselves if there are not Atmos and DTS processing updates that do it for us. One major thing would be to make bed arrays through all speakers at least at ear level. It doesn’t make sense not to. The objects are what are meant to be discrete in nature anyways. Mine as well use the other speakers for a diffuse sound field. I've never claimed to have tried every 4K Atmos movie, but of the 30 or so I have tried I haven't found one, not a single one, that is 9.1.6 or 11.1.8. Plainly that involves my taste in movies and maybe also that I'm in Australia and it's possible that we aren't getting local releases more than 7.1.4. I've asked many times in many threads for a genuine 9.1.6 movie that I can try, so far no luck. Happy New Year Gary There really shouldn't be any discs labeled as such. At least I don't think they should. If a disc simply says Atmos, then in theory it should support any speaker layout, because in theory its not pinned. When it starts saying things like 7.1.4, then its pinned. I think it saying Atmos 7.1.4 is false advertising, because its not Atmos if its pinned. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 29, 2018 17:49:17 GMT -5
I’ve heard of 9.1.6 support but I’ve also heard content doesn’t usually come from those additional speakers but is very content specific and some movies do make more use of them. They tested it on avsforum. If it’s not pinned it’s capable of more. Look at the trinnov forum. Like most audio threads the AVS Trinnov thread is a long process to extract any useful information from, I regularly visit it and haven't found any movies that they say are 9.1.6 native, but there is some music that they say is. For the guys who think Emotiva are the only ones with software issues Happy New Year Gary |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 29, 2018 17:50:47 GMT -5
Okay, next question for confirmation. I know DTS-X is for a 7.1.4 speaker configuration. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like pinned 7.1.4. I'm thinking it will flat out work as an object based system, very similar to how Atmos (unpinned) is supposed to work. Correct?
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 29, 2018 17:59:02 GMT -5
Moved from the RMC-1 thread to this one..... I've never claimed to have tried every 4K Atmos movie, but of the 30 or so I have tried I haven't found one, not a single one, that is 9.1.6 or 11.1.8. Plainly that involves my taste in movies and maybe also that I'm in Australia and it's possible that we aren't getting local releases more than 7.1.4. I've asked many times in many threads for a genuine 9.1.6 movie that I can try, so far no luck. There really shouldn't be any discs labeled as such. At least I don't think they should. If a disc simply says Atmos, then in theory it should support any speaker layout, because in theory its not pinned. When it starts saying things like 7.1.4, then its pinned. I think it saying Atmos 7.1.4 is false advertising, because its not Atmos if its pinned. More explicitly. movies that actually play 9.1.6. For clarification, movies that I have tried that are labelled (on the case) "Atmos" have so far all played 7.1.4 ie; none have played 9.1.6 or more. The ones labelled "Atmos 7.1.4" also play 7.1.4 and some have poorer sound quality, not "clarity" but how the sound track is mixed, how much LFE is or isn't present etc. But that varies movie by movie, such that I can't say that "Atmos 7.1.4" labelled movies always sound worse than those labelled "Atmos". Pinning to date in my limited listening has much less of an effect than how the movie is mixed. So far I haven't avoided buying any movies labelled "Atmos 7.1.4" because most of them sound pretty damn good to me. Happy New year Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 29, 2018 18:00:45 GMT -5
Okay, next question for confirmation. I know DTS-X is for a 7.1.4 speaker configuration. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like pinned 7.1.4. I'm thinking it will flat out work as an object based system, very similar to how Atmos (unpinned) is supposed to work. Correct? That is my understanding and what I have heard in the handful of DTS-X movies I have listed to. Happy New Year Gary |
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It's hard to take those products seriously, but they'll sell at Best Buy.
