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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 31, 2018 4:31:38 GMT -5
...Where did I ever write that it sounds better that what you have and why on earth are you quoting me?  Maybe you should practice reading more and writing long rude posts more.... Hi qdtjni - I owe you an apology, sir. I "kind of quoted" from a BUNCH of different posts (and threads) there, and shouldn't have appended anything to your post at all. I apologize for confusing you (and a bunch of others), and I also apologize for being rude (which I was). You're also accurate when you say that I don't spend enough time back-reading the thread looking for links. Mea culpa. I'll try to do better in the future, and thanks for bringing these issues to my attention. I value your posts, by the way, and appreciate your candor. Boom NOW I'm shifting gears, and the rest of this post is NOT in any way referring to your post that I've quoted above: Back to the topic at hand, klinemj and/or novisnick have told me that the Micro-Rendu and the SOtM devices are not the same as the Audioquest jitterbug and the Schiit Eiter. Would you guys be kind enough to elucidate the differences? I do see some obvious ones through casual inspection: The SOtM, for example, is an "active" device using its own computer to convert Ethernet packets to a USB (PCM) stream. I'm not sure about the Micro-Rendu. The AQ, on the other hand, seems to be a simpler device. The Jitterbug (per its name) claims to reduce USB jitter. I bought one of these, tried it, and upon hearing no audible improvement, sent it back. The Schiit Eitr, though, uses a transformer to remove noise and (per Schiit's claims) also removes jitter. I'm not sure how the jitter removal works, but I don't think that Schiit's lying... I've tried an Eitr in my system before, thanks to a generous loan from DYohn, and didn't find it to do a whole lot - certainly not the degree of audible improvement you guys are claiming for the MR & SOtM. So my question is: Do the AQ and the Schiit not remove ENOUGH noise and jitter to provide benefit? Or do my "no difference" results indicate that my Mac Mini server already has a low enough noise and jitter rate to not need such "clean-up" devices? Further, all of these devices claim to improve USB streams. Why use USB at all? I find it the worst-sounding interface of all the available options (tying for last place with TOSLINK optical). Said another way - HDMI sounds best with coaxial SPDIF a close second in my experience. Why would I want to use USB output from my server OR USB input for my DAC if I don't have to? Of the four devices under discussion, only the Schiit Eidr offers a coaxial output, and I heard little to no improvement from it vs. my existing HDMI connection. Isn't improving the USB interface like putting lipstick on a pig? Boomzilla |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 31, 2018 4:42:44 GMT -5
...Get out of your comfort zone just this once. Succinct advice. Thanks |
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Post by DYohn on Oct 31, 2018 5:51:02 GMT -5
Devices like the Rendu, SoTM, Pi, etc. are network music players: small remote-controllable computers running Linux-based software to receive data streams from an Ethernet network, decode them, and create the proper audio output. The Jitterbug is a simple USB re-clocker. The Eitr is a USB to S/PDIF converter. Entirely different functions.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 31, 2018 6:00:52 GMT -5
To get this thread back on track - Boom, consider using an Raspberry Pi as Roon endpoint to start with, possibly with an add-on board such as HifiBerry or similar. Yeah- I have a HiFi Berry and love it. And you don't need to take out a home equity line of credit to buy one  |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 31, 2018 7:23:49 GMT -5
Good answer DYohn to the question Boomzilla asked re. the differences in the gear. I had tried to say that before but evidently it didn't get through that clearly. Mark |
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Post by fbczar on Oct 31, 2018 7:50:33 GMT -5
...Where did I ever write that it sounds better that what you have and why on earth are you quoting me? Maybe you should practice reading more and writing long rude posts more.... Hi qdtjni - I owe you an apology, sir. I "kind of quoted" from a BUNCH of different posts (and threads) there, and shouldn't have appended anything to your post at all. I apologize for confusing you (and a bunch of others), and I also apologize for being rude (which I was). You're also accurate when you say that I don't spend enough time back-reading the thread looking for links. Mea culpa. I'll try to do better in the future, and thanks for bringing these issues to my attention. I value your posts, by the way, and appreciate your candor. Boom NOW I'm shifting gears, and the rest of this post is NOT in any way referring to your post that I've quoted above: Back to the topic at hand, klinemj and/or novisnick have told me that the Micro-Rendu and the SOtM devices are not the same as the Audioquest jitterbug and the Schiit Eiter. Would you guys be kind enough to elucidate the differences? I do see some obvious ones through casual inspection: The SOtM, for example, is an "active" device using its own computer to convert Ethernet packets to a USB (PCM) stream. I'm not sure about the Micro-Rendu. The AQ, on the other hand, seems to be a simpler device. The Jitterbug (per its name) claims to reduce USB jitter. I bought one of these, tried it, and upon hearing no audible improvement, sent it back. The Schiit Eitr, though, uses a transformer to remove noise and (per Schiit's claims) also removes jitter. I'm not sure how the jitter removal works, but I don't think that Schiit's lying... I've tried an Eitr in my system before, thanks to a generous loan from DYohn , and didn't find it to do a whole lot - certainly not the degree of audible improvement you guys are claiming for the MR & SOtM. So my question is: Do the AQ and the Schiit not remove ENOUGH noise and jitter to provide benefit? Or do my "no difference" results indicate that my Mac Mini server already has a low enough noise and jitter rate to not need such "clean-up" devices? Further, all of these devices claim to improve USB streams. Why use USB at all? I find it the worst-sounding interface of all the available options (tying for last place with TOSLINK optical). Said another way - HDMI sounds best with coaxial SPDIF a close second in my experience. Why would I want to use USB output from my server OR USB input for my DAC if I don't have to? Of the four devices under discussion, only the Schiit Eidr offers a coaxial output, and I heard little to no improvement from it vs. my existing HDMI connection. Isn't improving the USB interface like putting lipstick on a pig? Boomzilla Boom, The Schiit Eitr is a USB to SPDIF converter with Galvanic isolation. The microRendu is a computer that connects to a wifi network by ethernet and then to a DAC, in my case the XMC-1, via USB. I use Audirvana on an iMac. I also have a microRendu. Both the Eitr by itself and the microRendu by itself improve the sound of my system. However, I use the two devices together by connecting the microRendu to the Eitr via USB and then to the XMC-1 by SPDIF and the result is impressive. I have compared both the microRendu and the Eitr to the UltraRendu separately and together. The UltraRendu is superior to both independently, but the combination of the microRendu and Eitr vs the UltraRendu sounds the same to me. Perhaps the Eitr's galvanic isolation is at work. The concept behind these devices is to eliminate jitter and to eliminate/reduce electrical system noise caused by computer processing and the USB circuit itself and of course noise from the electrical supply. The result in my system is a more open, more natural, effortless sound and in my case it is not subtle. I would emphasize that my system did not exhibit any audible noise without the aforementioned devices, but it sounds better now. I would also mention that the power supply you use with the microRendu or UltraRendu makes a significant difference. The Eitr comes with a very good power supply. Anyway, I can recommend the combo of the microRendu and the Eitr or either device by itself for XMC-1 users. However, if I were starting from scratch, I would buy the UltraRendu. The Eitr connected to the UltraRendu did not make any difference to me. On another subject you mention that you find HDMI to be better than SPDIF. I find HDMI to be inferior to SPDIF and USB. Perhaps a lot of this is system dependent. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 31, 2018 8:06:10 GMT -5
... you find HDMI to be better than SPDIF. I find HDMI to be inferior to SPDIF and USB. Perhaps a lot of this is system dependent. Hi fbczar - I find this the most intriguing part of your post! Thanks. Boom |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 31, 2018 8:23:13 GMT -5
IMHO, I don't really hear a lot of difference comparing HDMI Roon audio thru my Oppo versus direct USB from my PC.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 31, 2018 8:29:22 GMT -5
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Post by pedrocols on Oct 31, 2018 9:20:57 GMT -5
I think I haven't changed anything in my system for the past couple of years other than getting a microRendu a few months back. With time whether you accept it or not your ability to hear music will change (scientific and biological fact) so at this point you will be just like an addict chasing that first "hi" unsuccessfully.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 31, 2018 10:18:43 GMT -5
^^^
This is so true!
Post of the year.
PS - do you think that great jazz act spends $$$ on devices like what we're talking about when recording? They lay down a track, engineer it, and produce it.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 31, 2018 10:27:31 GMT -5
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 31, 2018 12:18:12 GMT -5
Not to tee-off the Pi lovers, but remember: the Pi is just a crappy little ARM-based computer that can be programmed to do audio. But it is not specifically designed for this purpose. In my opinion it's only real appeal is it is super cheap, and if you are a DIY sort of person it can be fun. Products designed as network media players like the Sonic Orbiter-based devices, the Micro and Ultrarendu, the SoTM devices, Elac, Arender, Blue Sound products, etc. etc. etc. are also just crappy little ARM-based (usually) computers but they ARE designed specifically for audio, employing low-noise P/S circuits and optimized USB busses and fast memory, etc. And they require no DIY. That's what you pay the extra money for: purpose-built systems, purpose-built software, and ease of use.
Whether that's worth the cost to you or not is an individual decision. Same with Roon VS DLNA or bubbleUPNP or any other freeware. It's about what's worth the cost to each user as an individual.
I AM a DIY kind of guy and I have played with a Pi and also with a couple other ARM-based crappy little computers, and I can tell you that in my experience the extra cost made a WORLD of difference in sound quality and also in ease of use. YMMV.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 31, 2018 13:30:04 GMT -5
Here's a comparison of the SOtM SMS 200 Ultra to the UltraRendu and the DCS Network bridge from "Mr. Underhill" on Computer Audiophile. He also briefly notes a comparison of the DCS to a Pi. He also briefly mentions what others have said about the microrendu vs. the ultrarendu (which is very consistent with what I experienced). --->SEE THIS LINK...11th post on page<----My bottom line...these devices are making a difference and to different degrees. Why? As I have said - I don't know...but I know what I have heard. Some on Computer Audiophile have their theories they share (like, fewer processes running than in a typical PC = less latency in processing signals, lower noise, better circuits, etc..), but I honestly don't care at this point. My ultraRendu sounds great and far better than my prior solution (PC to DAC). Mark |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 31, 2018 14:33:07 GMT -5
Not to tee-off the Pi lovers, but remember: the Pi is just a crappy little ARM-based computer that can be programmed to do audio. But it is not specifically designed for this purpose. In my opinion it's only real appeal is it is super cheap, and if you are a DIY sort of person it can be fun. Products designed as network media players like the Sonic Orbiter-based devices, the Micro and Ultrarendu, the SoTM devices, Elac, Arender, Blue Sound products, etc. etc. etc. are also just crappy little ARM-based (usually) computers but they ARE designed specifically for audio, employing low-noise P/S circuits and optimized USB busses and fast memory, etc. And they require no DIY. That's what you pay the extra money for: purpose-built systems, purpose-built software, and ease of use. Whether that's worth the cost to you or not is an individual decision. Same with Roon VS DLNA or bubbleUPNP or any other freeware. It's about what's worth the cost to each user as an individual. I AM a DIY kind of guy and I have played with a Pi and also with a couple other ARM-based crappy little computers, and I can tell you that in my experience the extra cost made a WORLD of difference in sound quality and also in ease of use. YMMV. Respect your opinion - what are you using, if anything? PS - I'm using the Pi for my non-critical listening in my home office. It's a perfect solution to get my Roon music to my old Denon receiver up there. (I had been using Airplay, but, holy cow, was the audio quality crappy). |
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Post by DYohn on Oct 31, 2018 15:08:21 GMT -5
Not to tee-off the Pi lovers, but remember: the Pi is just a crappy little ARM-based computer that can be programmed to do audio. But it is not specifically designed for this purpose. In my opinion it's only real appeal is it is super cheap, and if you are a DIY sort of person it can be fun. Products designed as network media players like the Sonic Orbiter-based devices, the Micro and Ultrarendu, the SoTM devices, Elac, Arender, Blue Sound products, etc. etc. etc. are also just crappy little ARM-based (usually) computers but they ARE designed specifically for audio, employing low-noise P/S circuits and optimized USB busses and fast memory, etc. And they require no DIY. That's what you pay the extra money for: purpose-built systems, purpose-built software, and ease of use. Whether that's worth the cost to you or not is an individual decision. Same with Roon VS DLNA or bubbleUPNP or any other freeware. It's about what's worth the cost to each user as an individual. I AM a DIY kind of guy and I have played with a Pi and also with a couple other ARM-based crappy little computers, and I can tell you that in my experience the extra cost made a WORLD of difference in sound quality and also in ease of use. YMMV. Respect your opinion - what are you using, if anything? PS - I'm using the Pi for my non-critical listening in my home office. It's a perfect solution to get my Roon music to my old Denon receiver up there. (I had been using Airplay, but, holy cow, was the audio quality crappy). I use Roon on a server I built for it and the Sonore Ultrarendu + Sonore P/S for both my headphone system and for my 2-channel system, and I have the Elac Discovery as an endpoint in my HT system. Oh yes, a Pi-based solution is several steps above Airplay. Good choice. |
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Post by qdtjni on Oct 31, 2018 15:38:36 GMT -5
...Where did I ever write that it sounds better that what you have and why on earth are you quoting me? Maybe you should practice reading more and writing long rude posts more.... Hi qdtjni - I owe you an apology, sir. Apology accepted, sir. |
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Post by qdtjni on Oct 31, 2018 16:09:30 GMT -5
A lot of sensible stuff. I AM a DIY kind of guy and I have played with a Pi and also with a couple other ARM-based crappy little computers, and I can tell you that in my experience the extra cost made a WORLD of difference in sound quality and also in ease of use. YMMV. You made some very valid points, which all make a lot of sense. As for the world of difference in sound, that's not my experience. That can pretty much be generalised for reasonable digital input sources IME. Obviously, each and everyone have their personal experience once they've tried and - their personal expectation bias may or may not influence what we experience. In may case, I'll be honest and admit that I was hoping for that world of difference but certainly didn't expect it. So maybe it was my bias, maybe my ears or not good enough, maybe my DACs are immune to the problems the devices claim to solve or something else. Who knows? DISCLAIMER: I don't claim that an RPI sounds better or even as good as MR; UR, or any SoTM device As for attempts with RPI, I've been trying pretty much since the RPIs started to exist. I've had various different results with various DACs, RPI HW version, OS version and player SW, ranging rom useless to very enjoyable. FFTOMH, DACs using XMOS used to work better than C-Media., the latter used by for instance Schiit and Emotiva. The DACs using C-Media would not work fine without amending kernel parameters back when using RPI 1 (yes 1!). Since RPI-2 and with that, more recent kernel, OS and player SW versions, I don't recall having this kind of problems. Just install a decent OS, like Ropieee or standard Raspbian, it just works. So out of curiosity, in your trials what did you try out and with what DACs? |
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Post by DYohn on Oct 31, 2018 16:40:33 GMT -5
So out of curiosity, in your trials what did you try out and with what DACs? Admittedly it was in 2014 so I assume they might be better now. I bought one and downloaded the Debian software that was de rigor at the time, connected via USB to my Wavelength Brick (my headphone DAC at the time) and started playing via Squeezesoft from my server. It was slow to respond and sounded terrible. Jarringly bright and thin making FLAC files sound like low bit rate MP3. I was not impressed. Indeed, I had also loaded a version of Fedora and Squeezesoft onto a Pogo Plug (one of the first gen pink ones) and experimented with that to the same DAC and it sounded a lot better. It was actually usable where the Pi was not. I also built a streamer using an Intel Atom based mini computer and also tried a Mac Mini, as well as one of the Sonic Orbiter SE micro computer players (which was the worst of the lot, sounding much worse than the Pi.) I was using the Atom-based mini PC as a Squeeze player when I decided to purchase a Micro Rendu which out-classed it, so I then decided to try the Ultrarendu and that was even better. It's so good with Roon, in fact that it via USB to my Schiit Yggdrasil with the new upgraded analog section and new Gen 5 USB receiver sounds just as good as my high-end NorthStar CD transport to the same Yggdrasil via AES. I never turn on the CD transport these days. By the way my server is on a PC I built running Vortexbox as the OS. I had been using Logitech Media Server but last year upgraded to a full Roon license after I realized the Roon solution sounded better than the LMS solution on the same hardware. Oh, and I now use two Yggdrasils since it is the best sounding DAC I have ever experienced, one replacing the Brick and another replacing a Kora Hermes. I also replaced another Wavelength DAC with a Schiit Gungnir multibit. Yes, I have become a Schiit fanboy. |
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Post by qdtjni on Oct 31, 2018 16:57:33 GMT -5
Thanks, DYohn
You wouldn't happen to mean squeezeplay or squeezelite?
I used the latter with good results, albeit depending on OS and/or DAC, kernel mods were sometimes needed.
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Maybe you should practice reading more and writing long rude posts more....
