klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 1, 2018 14:20:17 GMT -5
Agreed....But, when differences do exist, it would be nice to have at least some theory as to why. While it would be nice to have a theory, if something sounds better - I actually don't care why (and...I a theory guy, as previously noted). If I don't have to build one and I can buy one, try it, and return it if I don't like it...then I have nothing to lose. Also, ever hear of a "trade secret"? In some ways, they are better than a patent for protecting key knowledge from being copied by others and thus eroding the knowledge-holder's market. In trade secrets, the maker does not tell anyone the "why" that they figured out and until others figure it out - nobody can copy you. In a patent, you must tell others the "why/how"...and your exclusive right to make/use/sell the solution runs out 20 years from filing date. And even then, others may take that published knowledge and try to infringe your patent and not pay you for it. By the way...you really should give these devices a listen. Mark |
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Post by foggy1956 on Nov 1, 2018 16:06:41 GMT -5
At the risk of getting my head handed to me... I'm streaming Tidal from my older Asus via USB into my Sony Walkman ZX300 running in DAC mode. From there I'm coming out of the 4.4mm balanced out headphone jack into the rca connections on my preamp and of course on then to the amps and speakers. Everything sounds pretty darn good to me... Am I missing something? Should I have some special equipment to get a better sound? Am I getting my monies worth out of Tidal with this setup? IMHO, try replacing the walkman with a big or little ego knowing you have 30 days to return if not happy |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Nov 1, 2018 16:06:43 GMT -5
It's called "emergent characteristics" when something works beyond the theory, or when something that should work doesn't work as planned, or when something works in ways not planned or predicted. It's why some power supplies make a difference when the theory says it shouldn't matter. It's why two designers can use the same components in the same ways and create two different sounding devices. It's why some digital sounds different from other digital. It's why some people can hear differences in cables. It's what some people call "synergy." Sometimes it just happens out of the blue. Sometimes it is impossible to figure out the why, there is just the "is." If there was one perfect theory in electronics, one "correct" way to do things, or one perfect solution, then everyone would simply do it that way. But there isn't. Thus : variety. I love variety, and I love it even more when experiments reveal some emergent characteristic that I think makes for a better personal experience.
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Post by qdtjni on Nov 1, 2018 16:35:12 GMT -5
By all means, there could be some secret sauce recipe that these small companies incidentally came up with independently.
If that really is the case, shouldn’t there be any measurements showing the differences on the analogue side of DACs?
Afterall, that’s we’re it matters and there wouldnt need to be any disclosure of why it’s better.
All I see is the measurement being made by independent party is rejected and none, really none, that rejects his.
If his measurements were that off because of his method - it should be easy to disapprove it.
The lack of those are highly suspicious and on top of that nobody, and I mean nobody, did any tests. Why is that?
And don’t give me that BS that I haven’t tried them myself, because I have.
Admittevely, I had my expectation bias but so do you guys.
Having said that, I have no doubts that with certain soureces and certain DACs, an Rendu; SoTM or other devices sound better to you than what you had before.
In other wordsr, it could be nothing else than expectation bias, which is all fine as long as you’re happy.
Do keep in mind, that’s not a universal truth and if it was, at least present some measurement showing that’s it at leas measures the same as without the magic sauce on the analogue side of it.
Remember that extra ordinary claims calls for extra ordinary evidence.
Which leads me to me my final point, Emperor’s new clothes anyone?
Finally, super clocks in an Ethernet switch?
Come on!
I’ll get my coat now.
EDIT: corrected some typos and am sure I missed some
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 1, 2018 18:15:18 GMT -5
By all means, there could be some secret sauce recipe that these small companies incidentally came up with independently. If that really is the case, shouldn’t there be any measurements showing the differences on the analogue side of DACs? Perhaps you missed a point I was making...sometimes, with innovations, the traditional measures no longer apply. And, sometimes, the creator choose to keep the new things secret. That doesn't mean it's not real. It just means they are not showing it. That said - there is a lot of snake oil out there. So, I understand the skepticism many have. Those who choose to not show measurements are at risk of being labeled snake oil. That is their choice. Also, I don't think these "small companies incidentally came up with" something. I think some had a plan and made it happen. And I am glad they did. Mark |
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Post by novisnick on Nov 1, 2018 18:46:32 GMT -5
By all means, there could be some secret sauce recipe that these small companies incidentally came up with independently. If that really is the case, shouldn’t there be any measurements showing the differences on the analogue side of DACs? Perhaps you missed a point I was making...sometimes, with innovations, the traditional measures no longer apply. And, sometimes, the creator choose to keep the new things secret. That doesn't mean it's not real. It just means they are not showing it. That said - there is a lot of snake oil out there. So, I understand the skepticism many have. Those who choose to not show measurements are at risk of being labeled snake oil. That is their choice. Also, I don't think these "small companies incidentally came up with" something. I think some had a plan and made it happen. And I am glad they did. Mark Mark, stop telling people that it’s raining! Be honest, we’re pissing on their leg! LOL JUST KIDDING Y’all. But you get my point? The brain is more complex and smarter then you are! |
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Post by liv2teach on Nov 2, 2018 0:46:03 GMT -5
At the risk of getting my head handed to me... I'm streaming Tidal from my older Asus via USB into my Sony Walkman ZX300 running in DAC mode. From there I'm coming out of the 4.4mm balanced out headphone jack into the rca connections on my preamp and of course on then to the amps and speakers. Everything sounds pretty darn good to me... Am I missing something? Should I have some special equipment to get a better sound? Am I getting my monies worth out of Tidal with this setup? IMHO, try replacing the walkman with a big or little ego knowing you have 30 days to return if not happy Alright, you talked me into it...I guess that's what being an audiophile does to you...the ongoing search for audio nirvana...huh. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 2, 2018 2:37:26 GMT -5
Secrets seems skeptical about reviewing these. They claim their lab gear may not handle the needed tests, and that the tests would be time consuming. They're also skeptical about the potential market (and thus the potential interest) in such a review. They think that because the potential market is so small, that readers just wouldn't be sufficiently interested. While I understand their points and even agree with most of them, I also respect the opinions and the veracity of my fellow Loungers who claim that they're hearing BIG differences. So where does that leave me? I see several paths forward: 1. Accept a review sample from Nick's distributor with the understanding that any review I write may or may not get published (if the distributor is still willing to loan a review sample for an "unsure thing" review) 2. Buy one and try it - If I don't think it's worth the $$$, I can send it back for small change 3. Wonder forever if I missed out on a wonder by convincing myself that this is bogus because there's no proof (and live with what I've got) Options one and two at least get me out of being nagged by youse guys! LOL OTOH, option three costs the least in time and money (the "lazy-man's option"). The other fly in this particular ointment is that if I try one of these (sample or purchase) and I like it, I may face an "endless upgrade" cycle. From what youse guys say, the fancier the power supply, the better the thing sounds. And on top of that, the makers keep coming out with endless tweaks and upgrades (this month's "ultra" becomes next month's "ultra plus" etc.). In other words, these are neither mature products nor fixed technologies. klinemj has already gone from the base model to the current top-of-the-line; what happens when the next (inevitable) "improvement" hits the market? Since these ARE products in development rather than mature technologies, might it be more prudent to take my option three until the market shakes out? Within a year, I'd predict that one of the two makers (Micro Rendu or SOtM) will achieve dominance and the other will either be bought out or go bankrupt. Why would I want to gamble potentially thousands of bucks and end up with the loser's (no longer supported) product? The resale value on a quirky product from a bankrupt manufacturer is virtually zero. So to sum up this ramble, there are very good reasons to avoid these products at this time - no scientific evidence of efficacy, little confidence that the manufacturers will remain economically viable, high cost of purchase, and extremely rapid depreciation due to newer model cycles and very low consumer demand. These may not be absolutely deciding factors, but they must be considered. Boom |
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Post by qdtjni on Nov 2, 2018 4:22:12 GMT -5
By all means, there could be some secret sauce recipe that these small companies incidentally came up with independently. If that really is the case, shouldn’t there be any measurements showing the differences on the analogue side of DACs? Perhaps you missed a point I was making...sometimes, with innovations, the traditional measures no longer apply. And, sometimes, the creator choose to keep the new things secret. That doesn't mean it's not real. It just means they are not showing it. That said - there is a lot of snake oil out there. So, I understand the skepticism many have. Those who choose to not show measurements are at risk of being labeled snake oil. That is their choice. Also, I don't think these "small companies incidentally came up with" something. I think some had a plan and made it happen. And I am glad they did. Mark I don't think I did, I appreciate that. However, I'm asking for measurements of the analogue side after DACs that at least show the signal integrity being on par with for instance a RPI. There are none, none from the manufacturers, none from the magazines that normally present measurements in their reviews and almost none from all the community of consumers. Not even a simple audiodiffmaker test. As for the incidentally, I meant that more than one company came up with this inventions at more or less the exact time, I'm sure they had a plan. |
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Post by qdtjni on Nov 2, 2018 4:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by qdtjni on Nov 2, 2018 5:06:20 GMT -5
Boom, go with option 1 or 2.
Even if you don't hear any difference, they are easy to use, practical and flexible as already point out by DYohn.
They may be worth keeping just for that.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 2, 2018 6:51:01 GMT -5
I see several paths forward: 1. Accept a review sample from Nick's distributor with the understanding that any review I write may or may not get published (if the distributor is still willing to loan a review sample for an "unsure thing" review) 2. Buy one and try it - If I don't think it's worth the $$$, I can send it back for small change 3. Wonder forever if I missed out on a wonder by convincing myself that this is bogus because there's no proof (and live with what I've got) Options one and two at least get me out of being nagged by youse guys! LOL OTOH, option three costs the least in time and money (the "lazy-man's option"). ... The other fly in this particular ointment is that if I try one of these (sample or purchase) and I like it, I may face an "endless upgrade" cycle. From what youse guys say, the fancier the power supply, the better the thing sounds. And on top of that, the makers keep coming out with endless tweaks and upgrades (this month's "ultra" becomes next month's "ultra plus" etc.). In other words, these are neither mature products nor fixed technologies. klinemj has already gone from the base model to the current top-of-the-line; what happens when the next (inevitable) "improvement" hits the market? I'd go w/options #1 or 2. I'd like to hear what you think in your system. Re. me going to the top of the line, I didn't. I went to their mid-level. In network music players, they have the microrendu, the ultrarendu, and the Signature Rendu SE. Chicagorspec has their top of the line network music player...the Signature Rendu SE. And, he also has their top of the line music server (sonictransporter i7). If you really want to go to their top...go to the signature rendu SE.  Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 2, 2018 7:07:04 GMT -5
However, I'm asking for measurements of the analogue side after DACs that at least show the signal integrity being on par with for instance a RPI. There are none, none from the manufacturers, none from the magazines that normally present measurements in their reviews and almost none from all the community of consumers. Not even a simple audiodiffmaker test. Now that would be interesting. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 2, 2018 7:34:03 GMT -5
I'd go w/options #1 or 2. I'd like to hear what you think in your system... Hi Mark - Thanks for your confidence in my ears! I'm interested in what they might sound like too. But note that ALL the objections in my previous post had absolutely nothing to do with how one of these devices might sound. Instead, they addressed the viability of the source companies, the security of the warranties, and the potential resale value in the future. ALL of those remain legitimate concerns, even if I discover that I really like the sound of the device. If I buy one, and then the company goes bankrupt, and then my device dies (entirely possible since they're complex and compact AND they run hot). Who's going to service or replace my item? At what cost? I'd suspect that if the company fails in the next few years (~0.5 likelihood) and the device dies after that interval (~0.5 likelihood again during it's "normal service life"), I'm just out the purchase price with no recourse anywhere. This has happened to me a couple of times before (I specifically remember a Mark Levinson phono head amp). If the technology is as good as you say, I can't imagine that more established companies won't jump into the market soon with their own similar products. I'd much rather buy such a device from an established company (Parasound or Emotiva, for instance) than from a shop in someone's garage. Even if Micro-Rendu and SOtM are much larger than I think, they don't even begin to approach the size and stability of a larger company. And corporate stability IS a major predictor of the value of product warranties. OTOH, if the technology doesn't spread, then the likelihood of either Micro-Rendu OR SOtM remaining in business (after they've saturated their tiny potential market demographic) is virtually zero. Now who knows - the technology may work swimmingly, in which case some company (Apple?) may buy the companies, incorporating the technology into their existing computers and audio devices. Then there'll be no need for stand-alone boxes at all. There's no reason why (with adequate shielding) a device like the MR or SOtM couldn't work INSIDE a source or destination device rather than being an expensive outboard accessory. And when the function of these devices is clearly understood, there's nothing to keep other companies from either eliminating the cause of the "problem" that these devices fix or else engineering far less-expensive means of eliminating the consequences of such problems. So, to summarize again, I'm not yet convinced that either Micro-Rendu OR SOtM have a valid business model (regardless of whether their technology works). Boomzilla |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 2, 2018 8:36:20 GMT -5
Boomzilla - you're in my camp. I looked at the Rendu and SOtM options, and I'm going to pass. Paying $1000 for a 0.01% improvement in sound quality doesn't make sense to me. PS - I tried HQ Player, and I deinstalled it. PPS - The biggest improvements I experienced (in no particular order) 1. XMC-1 with Dirac 2. XPA-5, Parasound A21 amplification 3. HSU VT-15 subwoofer 4. Paradigm studio 100 v5 speakers 5. For movies - I swear the awesome video quality of my LG OLED seems to make the audio sound better. I know it doesn't, of course, but the mind is an interesting thing.
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 2, 2018 9:05:27 GMT -5
I would at least try to find a used microRendu that won't break the bank which is what I did. I agree that paying almost and even over 1k for this kind of product is kind of silly and that's just my opinion.
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Post by novisnick on Nov 2, 2018 9:24:43 GMT -5
Boomzilla - you're in my camp. I looked at the Rendu and SOtM options, and I'm going to pass. Paying $1000 for a 0.01% improvement in sound quality doesn't make sense to me. PS - I tried HQ Player, and I deinstalled it. PPS - The biggest improvements I experienced (in no particular order) 1. XMC-1 with Dirac 2. XPA-5, Parasound A21 amplification 3. HSU VT-15 subwoofer 4. Paradigm studio 100 v5 speakers 5. For movies - I swear the awesome video quality of my LG OLED seems to make the audio sound better. I know it doesn't, of course, but the mind is an interesting thing. So, what methodology did YOU use to come up with a 0.01% improvement. Hmmm,,,,, I think not. But you go with that. 🤔 you’ve tried the list of 1-5 and made a rational decision, but discount what you haven’t experienced out of hand! Again, 🤔 I’m looking for any logic here. 😋 Yep, 1-4 are great improvements IMHO, Whish I had #5 at home. 👍 |
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 2, 2018 11:16:22 GMT -5
This is so dreadful. Please somebody lock this nonsense. How can you old farts can keep up with this 🤔😂
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Post by novisnick on Nov 2, 2018 11:18:37 GMT -5
This is so dreadful. Please somebody lock this nonsense. How can you old farts can keep up with this 🤔😂 Relax my friend, we’ve given the RMC-1 thread a well deserved rest! LOL  |
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Post by fbczar on Nov 2, 2018 12:46:19 GMT -5
I'd go w/options #1 or 2. I'd like to hear what you think in your system... Hi Mark - Thanks for your confidence in my ears! I'm interested in what they might sound like too. But note that ALL the objections in my previous post had absolutely nothing to do with how one of these devices might sound. Instead, they addressed the viability of the source companies, the security of the warranties, and the potential resale value in the future. ALL of those remain legitimate concerns, even if I discover that I really like the sound of the device. If I buy one, and then the company goes bankrupt, and then my device dies (entirely possible since they're complex and compact AND they run hot). Who's going to service or replace my item? At what cost? I'd suspect that if the company fails in the next few years (~0.5 likelihood) and the device dies after that interval (~0.5 likelihood again during it's "normal service life"), I'm just out the purchase price with no recourse anywhere. This has happened to me a couple of times before (I specifically remember a Mark Levinson phono head amp). If the technology is as good as you say, I can't imagine that more established companies won't jump into the market soon with their own similar products. I'd much rather buy such a device from an established company (Parasound or Emotiva, for instance) than from a shop in someone's garage. Even if Micro-Rendu and SOtM are much larger than I think, they don't even begin to approach the size and stability of a larger company. And corporate stability IS a major predictor of the value of product warranties. OTOH, if the technology doesn't spread, then the likelihood of either Micro-Rendu OR SOtM remaining in business (after they've saturated their tiny potential market demographic) is virtually zero. Now who knows - the technology may work swimmingly, in which case some company (Apple?) may buy the companies, incorporating the technology into their existing computers and audio devices. Then there'll be no need for stand-alone boxes at all. There's no reason why (with adequate shielding) a device like the MR or SOtM couldn't work INSIDE a source or destination device rather than being an expensive outboard accessory. And when the function of these devices is clearly understood, there's nothing to keep other companies from either eliminating the cause of the "problem" that these devices fix or else engineering far less-expensive means of eliminating the consequences of such problems. So, to summarize again, I'm not yet convinced that either Micro-Rendu OR SOtM have a valid business model (regardless of whether their technology works). Boomzilla The microRendu costs $640.00. The UltraRendu costs $875.00. The iFi Power Supply costs $50.00 and the SBooster Power Supply costs $349.00. There are other, more esoteric, power supplies available that cost considerably more. The microRendu and UltraRendu are small, purpose built computers. They do not cost much so the economic risk is not too great and the fact they are purpose built extends their useful life beyond that of the typical computer. The life expectancy of most computers is dictated by the tasks they can perform and their ability to accept upgrades. As for running hot, sitting either device on a $12.00 fan eliminates the problem. The SBooster definitely sounds better, but the iFi is not chopped liver. Resale has been very good in my experience. I guess you just have to evaluate the improvement in sound versus the cost/risk. In reading your many entertaining posts I had no idea you were so risk averse. My condolences relative to the Levinson head amp. A Marc Levinson anything would be a terrible thing to lose. |
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