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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 28, 2018 19:06:31 GMT -5
... That said, you never answered my question. Yes or No? Ever hear one?If not, they have a 30 day trial period...Why not try it risk free?...Mark You have my curiosity piqued sufficiently that I may try it. Curse you! LOL |
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Post by chicagorspec on Oct 28, 2018 19:10:08 GMT -5
Mark, you damn fool. Why listen for yourself, when instead free of charge you can spend a lifetime here writing tomes, and participating in circular arguments with people you’ve never met?
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 28, 2018 19:12:58 GMT -5
Mark, you damn fool. Why listen for yourself, when instead free of charge you can spend a lifetime here writing tomes, and participating in circular arguments with people you’ve never met? I'm shooting for a cut of sales... (Kidding...) Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 28, 2018 19:17:12 GMT -5
... That said, you never answered my question. Yes or No? Ever hear one?If not, they have a 30 day trial period...Why not try it risk free?...Mark You have my curiosity piqued sufficiently that I may try it. Curse you! LOL Excellent idea... While I would certainly recommend the ultraRendu or higher in their series, novisnick might recommend other options. Regardless...try them. And, as a first test, try something that does not sound great. My best examples are Carole King Tapestry and older Linda Ronstadt. Then move to other music that is better recorded/mastered. Mark |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 28, 2018 19:29:17 GMT -5
No, not at all. the asynchronous clock is not a master word clock. We’re dipping into deep engineering here folks, above most pay grades. I thought the purpose of an asynchronous clock was to negate the need for synchronizing clocks between devices? Oops, ya thought wrong. Sorry about that. In the beginning of my research I thought the same. The word clock is usually 16 bit and has much to do with timing and electrical voltages between multiple “slave” clocks. My system requme to select which clock will be the Master Word Clock which all the others will pulse with. sign waves are determined by the timing of the data beng received. Simply said too early or too late is bad and screws up ever thing connected to it. Right down to the CPU of the computers. Causing extra energy to be required to correct the problem. And heres where jitter comes in to play havoc. Preventing off timing and jitter before it happens is the way to deal with these problems. Its complicated and Im babbling again, well not babbling but confusing the hell out of you! The reader. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 28, 2018 19:31:46 GMT -5
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Post by Soup on Oct 28, 2018 19:41:51 GMT -5
Still loving my microRendu. Excellent sound and solid customer support.
No time to debate this issue. It just works.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 28, 2018 19:49:18 GMT -5
I find that when I eat these things, I have lower jitter. Well, OK...I take a nap. And, that's the same thing, right? Mark |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 28, 2018 20:18:23 GMT -5
OMG!
A thread NOT discussing the RMC-1? With continuous discussion? Thanks goodness!
About time we had another topic of interest.
😁🎶🎶🎶🤔
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Post by Loop 7 on Oct 28, 2018 22:25:01 GMT -5
Still loving my microRendu. Excellent sound and solid customer support. No time to debate this issue. It just works. On Computer Audiophile, people rave about the microRendu. Seems like a lot of money for a small device but obviously it's worth it. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Oct 29, 2018 4:21:09 GMT -5
Boomzilla and bluemeaniesWhy we don’t connect our PC to the DAC. A direct feed from a PC of any sort is the worst sounding data stream (music) you can hear, especially USB. We use USB as it will carry the highest signal available besides 2iS and not many systems use that. There is so much noise and magnetic fields, add in a few cheap clockes inside the PC on top of the main SMPS. Then the junk coming from the screen, keyboard and mouse! Geezzzus! Your killing me and the music. we need to output the music in such a way to leave that mess behind, fortunately we can, via ethernet. Cat 5 will do but cat 6 or 7 is better. This stream is done in packets which require proper clocking. So much for a direct connection to the DAC. Sending the music to another computer designed to eliminate all of that mess is where our solution is found. NAA, Network Audio Adapter such as the micro Rendu or the sotm sms-200 ULTRA which converts ethernet to USB. This is a better way to feed the DAC as we will have added a galvanic isolation. With the sotm we’ve also added a TOTL reclocker which is most important. Clocking and timing is everything when dealing with moving data or packets. To soon or too late and the clock and computer need to request the data again, corrupting the music and adding noise , at the same time stressing the processors of both PC and NAA CPU. Now we have a completely clean signal to feed your DAC, hopefully its of sufficient quality to maximize the upgrade you’ve just incorporated into your system. Ok, Im off in the weeds providing way more info then required. But its so fun and interesting on how it all works. Heres how I enjoy my digital library and Tidal HiFi subscription: My Mac Mini and network player (sotm/ NAA) is always on, same as my DAC. HOT gear sounds better. (Long story about why it should stay on, ask if you dare! 😋) 1)Fire up Preamp and then amp 2)plop down in big chair 3)access Roon app on IPAD 4)select my music and enjoy Nick the noise you are describing escapes me. Perhaps I have the worst hearing of all and what I perceive as good sounding music is my imagination. I use a track pad and a wireless keyboard. After my initial opening of TIDAL and AIRSERVER I shut down my keyboard. I always shut down my external TUBE DAC. I first turn on MY system systematically, first my dac, tube pre-amp, lastly my tube monoblocks. Some of the issue you are talking about maybe found in the audio setup of IMac or Mac Mini. Honestly I do not know. The test for me was when I was listening to a jazz album and hearing the smashing of a high-hat. It was distinct. I am not trying to disclaim your thoughts on this subject as I was thinking of the Sonare in my search for getting a good, clean streaming feed to my dac. I chose not too and when to another direction. I will say in reading this post there are people here that agree with you and I would love to compare the differences between the Sonare or the sotm sos200 ultra with what I already have in my system. Would the devices mentioned be connected between my Mac mini and dac? Sorry if this is a repeat question. I am on the run these days and at times do not have the freedom to read all posts connected with the thread. Thanks Nick and good topic. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 29, 2018 4:56:39 GMT -5
bluemeanies thanks for your interest. When I dove into this I had no idea about any of the technical stuff at all. I was like many, plug it and nd it sounds good? We’re good! Done! Not so fast, we’ve been conditioned that plug and play was all that and then some. They hid dirty littlle secrets and noise and sound your years cant really perceive but your brain can. Sort of the way our brain fixes much time delay and such without a concussion decision. To answer your question, yes, one of these devices goes in between the server/PC and the DAC. THIS IS THE EXACT point where ugly really does make it easy to hear the difference. What we hear when a direct connection to that PC is made is very audible. Jump out and smack you in most cases. The sotm and its internal master word clock sets the standard and all the lessor word clocks in the system are slaved to it. Timing is most critical! A data stream is actually a stream of packets sent at precisely the exact moment required to unpack it at the DAC. The data transmitted via Ethernet doesn’t have the extra “noise” as it is a natural filter. Hate to use that word because of the designed filters used to change the sound signature, thats another story! Oh, its deep. Another tool implemented into a great signal is a galvanic isolator. It works by creating a field that moves the signal forward without a physical connection. Therefore leaving behind any noise in said signal. The problem of timing and jitter etc is attended to much more diligently in the recording process, as we know trash in equals trash out! Ever have a recording that was just over the top in SQ. This is where it starts, in the engineering of the record or track.. continuing the vigilance only make sense. And once again Ive rambled on about what ivelearned and am learning but it seems to come out erratically. Its so intertwined and I’ve not the education to translate or convey properly. There are device manufacturers that are willing to fill a void if theres money to be made, cold hard fact. Theres a demand to fix a problem after the fact and they are oh so willing to offer a “filter” device that “solves” the problem. The priblem should never exist to start with! It should be adressed before it happens, By adding a “fix” at the end of the data stream one only covers and hides information needed to have The absolute best SQ. Ever hear a remaster that sucked? Chances are its poor attention to the details and a budget and greed factor that states very literally, “Time is Money”! Its late so I’ll save you all from further pain and ramblings. Ask away, you’ll get more! LOL What a rabbit hole I’ve dove into! LOL
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Post by Soup on Oct 29, 2018 5:56:16 GMT -5
FOOBAR 2000 works great for me and many others and the price is right (free)!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 29, 2018 6:14:35 GMT -5
Nick the noise you are describing escapes me. Perhaps I have the worst hearing of all and what I perceive as good sounding music is my imagination. I used to think of "noise" as something like electrical noise that entered from an outside source. The devices like the rendu series and the sotm products are making me think broader about sonic effects other than electrical noise. I'm now thinking about all the things that impact sound and create digital artifacts that sound less than ideal. I didn't think I had "noise". But, suddenly all is clearer with an ultraRendu...so..."something went away" and what's left is better. What was it that left and how did it go away? I don't know...but it's really good now. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 29, 2018 9:49:26 GMT -5
...devices like the rendu series and the sotm products... OK - I'll bite - WTF is a "sotm product?" |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 10:00:42 GMT -5
...devices like the rendu series and the sotm products... OK - I'll bite - WTF is a "sotm product?" SOTM Sentinels of the Multiverse SOTM Summer of the Monkeys SOTM Site of the Mont SOTM Scan of the Month SOTM Student of the Month SOTM The Spike on the Mic SOTM Someone Once Told Me SOTM Song of the Month SOTM Secrets of the Moon SOTM Spur Of The Moment SOTM Standing On The Moon SOTM Someone Other than Me SOTM Son of the Morning SOTM Swarm of the Marro SOTM Shadow Of The Moon SOTM Swarm of the Marrow SOTM Staff of the Masters SOTM Smoke on the Mountain SOTM Sol of the Month SOTM Share Of The Market SOTM Scrolls of the Megilloth SOTM Swaggernaut of the Month SOTM Striker of the Month |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 29, 2018 10:16:52 GMT -5
...devices like the rendu series and the sotm products... OK - I'll bite - WTF is a "sotm product?" You don’t get YouTube on your computer do you? OR you just refuse to watch any videos that I’ve posted. Perhaps a personal invite my friend. 😋 A note of apology to Sonura and @klienmj My sms-200 Ultra SE,I made claims that this unit was far superior to the micro Rendu, I still feel that way but I should also note that it has added costs to do so. The SE version adds silver wiring and a electronic silver shielding blanket. The Ultra indicates that it has an add $900 word clock board incorporated into the unit. A huge oversight on my part, I am sorry. There is an entry level sotm sms-200 thats more equal to the standard micro rendu. Must run |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 29, 2018 10:39:58 GMT -5
Sometimes it's easier just to use a DAC that is immune to the extra noise - then you don't need to remove it. 
I do need to correct you on a few points however...
You are quite right that Ethernet acts as a filter - in the sense that it simply fails to pass along various types of noise and other flaws in the signal. HOWEVER, by its nature, Ethernet itself creates its own variety of issues. More to the point, Ethernet adds its own noise of various types to the signal; however, since the digital circuitry it is designed to be used with is immune to all of them, it isn't considered to matter. Ethernet is, relatively speaking, timing independent.
Ethernet packets are not delivered in a precise cadence, nor do they need to be... as long as they arrive mostly intact and more or less in order.
(Most commonly used network protocols include mechanisms for re-sending a few lost packets or correcting the situation if a few packets arrive out of order.)
Therefore, ANY device that accepts an Ethernet input, and extracts audio from it, MUST re-clock that signal.
Incidentally, in a DAC, THE ONLY CLOCK THAT MATTERS is the clock that is used to submit the data to the DAC chip itself for conversion. Many DACs re-clock all the data they receive, and asynch USB inputs create an entirely new clock to use with the data as it is received.)
Some DACs that fail to do adequate filtering and re-clocking on their own are sensitive to the quality of the clock used for incoming data...
And, with old-style USB inputs, the internal clock is generated by "locking onto the incoming USB clock"... But I'm not aware of anybody who uses the Ethernet packet clock for anything except receiving Ethernet data...
The real purpose of galvanic isolation is to prevent ground and power supply noise from the originating device from finding its way into the DAC. In general, noise mixed with the DATA is irrelevant; digital data is just ones and zeros.... anything in between, including noise, should be ignored by the digital input circuitry. (And, in a proper design, analog noise on the digital data lines should be well isolated from the analog portions of the circuitry.)
Galvanic isolation can eliminate certain specific types of noise - specifically ground and power supply noise - but doesn't do anything for high frequency noise mixed with the data.
(Many USB-powered DACs are susceptible to this - and benefit from a galvanic isolator.)
And, yes, extra filtering or re-clocking can definitely help, especially if you're using a DAC that has insufficient filtering or re-clocking of its own.
HOWEVER, as with line filtering, it only serves to reduce or eliminate problems that actually exist... as opposed to being an upgrade that makes everything better.
bluemeanies thanks for your interest. When I dove into this I had no idea about any of the technical stuff at all. I was like many, plug it and nd it sounds good? We’re good! Done! Not so fast, we’ve been conditioned that plug and play was all that and then some. They hid dirty littlle secrets and noise and sound your years cant really perceive but your brain can. Sort of the way our brain fixes much time delay and such without a concussion decision. To answer your question, yes, one of these devices goes in between the server/PC and the DAC. THIS IS THE EXACT point where ugly really does make it easy to hear the difference. What we hear when a direct connection to that PC is made is very audible. Jump out and smack you in most cases. The sotm and its internal master word clock sets the standard and all the lessor word clocks in the system are slaved to it. Timing is most critical! A data stream is actually a stream of packets sent at precisely the exact moment required to unpack it at the DAC. The data transmitted via Ethernet doesn’t have the extra “noise” as it is a natural filter. Hate to use that word because of the designed filters used to change the sound signature, thats another story! Oh, its deep. Another tool implemented into a great signal is a galvanic isolator. It works by creating a field that moves the signal forward without a physical connection. Therefore leaving behind any noise in said signal. The problem of timing and jitter etc is attended to much more diligently in the recording process, as we know trash in equals trash out! Ever have a recording that was just over the top in SQ. This is where it starts, in the engineering of the record or track.. continuing the vigilance only make sense. And once again Ive rambled on about what ivelearned and am learning but it seems to come out erratically. Its so intertwined and I’ve not the education to translate or convey properly. There are device manufacturers that are willing to fill a void if theres money to be made, cold hard fact. Theres a demand to fix a problem after the fact and they are oh so willing to offer a “filter” device that “solves” the problem. The priblem should never exist to start with! It should be adressed before it happens, By adding a “fix” at the end of the data stream one only covers and hides information needed to have The absolute best SQ. Ever hear a remaster that sucked? Chances are its poor attention to the details and a budget and greed factor that states very literally, “Time is Money”! Its late so I’ll save you all from further pain and ramblings. Ask away, you’ll get more! LOL What a rabbit hole I’ve dove into! LOL |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 29, 2018 11:00:51 GMT -5
That is indeed the purpose of an asynchronous USB input... to provide a "clean local clock" which is independent of the source device's data clock. (Don't use the term asynchronous clocking... that is a more general term that applies much more widely.)
In a DAC, the ONLY important clock is the one that is used to clock the data through the actual conversion process (the clock that clocks the data into the DAC chip). Strictly speaking, all of the clocks before that only serve to move the data along, and data is remarkably tolerant of clock variations (which is one of the benefits of digital data).
HOWEVER, in some situations, the DAC's clock is derived from the upstream clocks. For example, with S/PDIF inputs, the clock is part of the data. And, in old-style USB audio inputs, one or more PLLs (phase-locked loops) would be used to "lock onto" the incoming USB packet clock so that it could be used to clock the DAC. In modern asynch USB inputs, the input circuitry has its own clock, which is used to clock the data into the DAC. And many modern DACs use an ASRC or something similar to create a new and clean clock for the DAC. (An asynch USB input only works for USB; an ASRC can be applied to remove timing errors and jitter from any type of incoming digital audio signal.)
The main use of master system clocks these days is in studio situations - where extremely low latency is required.
In general, every time you re-clock, you introduce a slight delay. If you need to send a signal out to another device, perhaps for processing, and have it return "in time" with other signals, you cannot afford this extra delay. However, for home audio payback gear, a delay of a few milliseconds in the audio signal chain is not a problem at all.
I thought the purpose of an asynchronous clock was to negate the need for synchronizing clocks between devices? Oops, ya thought wrong. Sorry about that. In the beginning of my research I thought the same. The word clock is usually 16 bit and has much to do with timing and electrical voltages between multiple “slave” clocks. My system requme to select which clock will be the Master Word Clock which all the others will pulse with. sign waves are determined by the timing of the data beng received. Simply said too early or too late is bad and screws up ever thing connected to it. Right down to the CPU of the computers. Causing extra energy to be required to correct the problem. And heres where jitter comes in to play havoc. Preventing off timing and jitter before it happens is the way to deal with these problems. Its complicated and Im babbling again, well not babbling but confusing the hell out of you! The reader. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 29, 2018 11:45:05 GMT -5
Much thanks to @kiethl for helping with some of the information that I’ve been trying to convey.
And yes, theres always that bugger, “properly designed” ! 🤔
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