DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2018 15:38:05 GMT -5
An (exaggerated, but only slightly) anecdote from a focus group "blind test" experiment I once participated in. Four "average" people in a room, all relaxed and feeling good, told that they were about to hear a sound and we wanted them to describe what they heard. We play a recording of the Stanford student orchestra playing a series of tones. The first person says, "An orchestra playing tones." the second, "That was terrible, it hurt my ears." The third, "If you listen closely, the second violin is flat." The fourth, "Are you using Scan Speak slit-cone revelator mid range drivers?"
Each person heard what they wanted to hear. Why? Because they were humans and we tried not to define perception biases for them.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 1, 2018 15:41:51 GMT -5
An (exaggerated, but only slightly) anecdote from a focus group "blind test" experiment I once participated in. Four "average" people in a room, all relaxed and feeling good, told that they were about to hear a sound and we wanted them to describe what they heard. We play a recording of the Stanford student orchestra playing a series of tones. The first person says, "An orchestra playing tones." the second, "That was terrible, it hurt my ears." The third, "If you listen closely, the second violin is flat." The fourth, "Are you using Scan Speak slit-cone revelator mid range drivers?" Each person heard what they wanted to hear. Why? Because they were humans and we tried not to define perception biases for them. And it was the same equipment right? |
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DYohn
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Posts: 18,488
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2018 15:46:29 GMT -5
An (exaggerated, but only slightly) anecdote from a focus group "blind test" experiment I once participated in. Four "average" people in a room, all relaxed and feeling good, told that they were about to hear a sound and we wanted them to describe what they heard. We play a recording of the Stanford student orchestra playing a series of tones. The first person says, "An orchestra playing tones." the second, "That was terrible, it hurt my ears." The third, "If you listen closely, the second violin is flat." The fourth, "Are you using Scan Speak slit-cone revelator mid range drivers?" Each person heard what they wanted to hear. Why? Because they were humans and we tried not to define perception biases for them. And it was the same equipment right? It was at the same time. |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 1, 2018 16:09:27 GMT -5
An (exaggerated, but only slightly) anecdote from a focus group "blind test" experiment I once participated in. Four "average" people in a room, all relaxed and feeling good, told that they were about to hear a sound and we wanted them to describe what they heard. We play a recording of the Stanford student orchestra playing a series of tones. The first person says, "An orchestra playing tones." the second, "That was terrible, it hurt my ears." The third, "If you listen closely, the second violin is flat." The fourth, "Are you using Scan Speak slit-cone revelator mid range drivers?" Each person heard what they wanted to hear. Why? Because they were humans and we tried not to define perception biases for them.  |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 1, 2018 16:29:28 GMT -5
Having worked over 30 years in consumer products, I can fully attest to different consumers having different preference responses for the exact same products. It's not just in audio.
Mark
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Post by jdmusante on Dec 1, 2018 17:58:14 GMT -5
Well, well, well.... This just showed up at my doorstep. The sonicTransporter is back ordered until next week apparently. I emailed SGC and asked when my order would ship. They upgraded my shipping and sent this NDA. Pretty cool of them to do. I have some listening to do tonight!  |
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Post by chicagorspec on Dec 1, 2018 18:06:38 GMT -5
Well, well, well.... This just showed up at my doorstep. The sonicTransporter is back ordered until next week apparently. I emailed SGC and asked when my order would ship. They upgraded my shipping and sent this NDA. Pretty cool of them to do. I have some listening to do tonight! View AttachmentEnjoy it! We look forward to your thoughts. |
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Post by jdmusante on Dec 2, 2018 0:20:31 GMT -5
Enjoy it! We look forward to your thoughts. Hooked it up. Took me a few to get it up and running. Pulled my wife into the room and asked her to listen with me. We've only been married two years and together for just about five. She is mostly in awe of my sonic playroom but now is becoming a burgeoning audiophile. Kind of fun to watch. I let her pick a few songs she knew first. Her reaction was that she could tell the sound was fuller and was enjoying what she was hearing. She wanted to hear 'Carry On My Wayward Son', which made me chuckle. Its the song her and her daughter would always crank up when going on road trips. To me the quieter portions of the song were where the ultraRendu shined. Kansas isn't something I play on my home stereo, like ever, so I was commenting to her that this may be the first time either of us ever heard the song on a good system and outside of a car or boombox.  Next up we listened to: Hamilton Soundtrack - Lin Miranda's voice just jumps out at you. The low end on this is super fun to listen to. Norah Jones Feel Like Home - I just love her voice The Beatles Abbey Road (second half) Feist Let It Die - Again, amazing voice and this album has awesome low end Bela Fleck & the Flecktones Rocket Science Medeski Martin & Wood Combustication Overall, it think it sounds very good. The sound is fuller, the highs and vocals are crystal clear & the separation is fantastic. I was wondering what I was going to hear as I thoroughly enjoyed the sound of my system as it was but there is an improvement. Someone earlier in this thread brought up the question of what was enough with our obsession in chasing the last 10% of audio perfection and what was it worth. I think this device perfectly encapsulates that statement. It is a wonderful refinement of something that was already really good (to my ears). Is it worth $900 for the last 10%? I guess it is as I'm going to keep it. Is the difference night and day? No, but the sound is better and will stay integrated into my system. Jason |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 2, 2018 0:41:15 GMT -5
I've now got the Schiit Eitr in my audio signal-chain again, allowing me to use the Microrendu with DACs that don't have a USB input (such as my Arcam AVR550). I've also now got the (most excellent) Sennheiser HD-650 headphones in the house that let me hear a bit deeper into the MR-voodoo. And these "enhancements" change my Microrendu listening how? In the first post of this thread, I speculated that the Microrendu emphasized the presence band. Mr. klinemj replied that he doubted it because the MR/Ultrarendu's effects were also audible in the bass and treble ranges. And while I agree with Mr. Kline, I think I also slightly disagree. To use an analogy, my Microrendu seems to add "Technicolor" effects to some otherwise bland recordings. And although the audio effects DO also affect the bass and treble portions of the frequency spectrum, the effects do not seem to be applied equally across the entire frequency range. Yes, there ARE more dynamics in the bass and treble, but that dynamic enhancing effect is DOUBLY applied to the presence range - affecting female voices and percussive leading-edge sounds particularly. Now I've used my Microrendu with three DACs (the Mytek Liberty, the Emotiva Stealth DC-1, and the Arcam AVR-550s built-in), and while the results of the Microrendu itself are consistent, the interaction with the DACs can create different results. In terms of their "sans-Microrendu" native sound, I'd rate the Mytek nominally the brightest (bordering on, but never quite sliding into Sabre glare), the DC-1 the closest to neutral (in my system), and the Arcam a tad laid-back. WITH the Microrendu (with or without the Schiit Eitr in the system), the Mytek becomes harsh, the DC-1 sounds like the (non-Microrendu) Mytek, and the Arcam now sounds like the (non-Microrendu) DC-1. In other words, each DAC seems to have more "presence range" with the Microrendu in the system. That said, the Microrendu doesn't really create any "etch" around the leading edges of presence-range sounds (an excellent trick, that) except slightly with the Mytek. So compared to headphone listening without the Microrendu, I think that the Microrendu's "more vivid presentation" IS slightly an artifact of an enhanced presence range. And although the Technicolor overlay is definitely pleasant with some (most?) music, and although it's also IMMEDIATELY audible for most listeners, it can still be "too much" with some associated equipment, and is, therefore, not a universal panacea. So depending on your equipment, I could understand some users trying this and saying "no thanks." The "negatives" of my Microrendu, to list them plainly, are the following: 1. The MR (to my ears and in my room) seems to slightly emphasize the presence range of female voices and percussive leading edges leaving slightly lower frequency sounds (tom-tom heads and male voices, for instance) sounding slightly lower in amplitude 2. With some equipment already prone to glare (my Oppo UDP-205 with its Sabre DAC and my Mytek Liberty with its Sabre DAC, for instance) the presence enhancement can sometimes be "too much" and cause "etching" on those presence range sounds 3. The device isn't cheap and mine uses a "Bozo the Clown" concoction of power supply components that are tedious to locate among your other equipment But for MY system, the positives of the Microrendu are generally greater than the negatives. That said, is the Microrendu worth its price? THAT becomes an entirely different kettle of whatever. Would your system benefit more from having an extra $1,000 in the pair of speakers that you're using? Would your system benefit more from $1,000 of room treatments? Would your family rather have the extra $1,000 in the bank? For many of us (particularly the younger Loungers who are still raising families and buying houses) these are all VERY significant questions. I don't see a Microrendu streamer being the best upgrade for a one to two thousand dollar system... But for those of us to whom a grand is not a big issue, then the Microrendu (or other similar streamers) is/are probably worth trying. For those who can't afford one, the value question is moot. But for those in the middle, definitely try it before you buy it - both Sonore and SOtM offer reasonably generous return periods. And who knows, you might fall in love. Boomzilla |
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Post by chicagorspec on Dec 2, 2018 8:58:08 GMT -5
Enjoy it! We look forward to your thoughts. Hooked it up. Took me a few to get it up and running. Pulled my wife into the room and asked her to listen with me. We've only been married two years and together for just about five. She is mostly in awe of my sonic playroom but now is becoming a burgeoning audiophile. Kind of fun to watch. I let her pick a few songs she knew first. Her reaction was that she could tell the sound was fuller and was enjoying what she was hearing. She wanted to hear 'Carry On My Wayward Son', which made me chuckle. Its the song her and her daughter would always crank up when going on road trips. To me the quieter portions of the song were where the ultraRendu shined. Kansas isn't something I play on my home stereo, like ever, so I was commenting to her that this may be the first time either of us ever heard the song on a good system and outside of a car or boombox. Next up we listened to: Hamilton Soundtrack - Lin Miranda's voice just jumps out at you. The low end on this is super fun to listen to. Norah Jones Feel Like Home - I just love her voice The Beatles Abbey Road (second half) Feist Let It Die - Again, amazing voice and this album has awesome low end Bela Fleck & the Flecktones Rocket Science Medeski Martin & Wood Combustication Overall, it think it sounds very good. The sound is fuller, the highs and vocals are crystal clear & the separation is fantastic. I was wondering what I was going to hear as I thoroughly enjoyed the sound of my system as it was but there is an improvement. Someone earlier in this thread brought up the question of what was enough with our obsession in chasing the last 10% of audio perfection and what was it worth. I think this device perfectly encapsulates that statement. It is a wonderful refinement of something that was already really good (to my ears). Is it worth $900 for the last 10%? I guess it is as I'm going to keep it. Is the difference night and day? No, but the sound is better and will stay integrated into my system. Jason Thanks, Jason. Great summary, and it sounds like you had a similar experience to what many others of us have felt. I hope the UR continues to make your and your wife’s listening more enjoyable and fun! |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 2, 2018 9:23:32 GMT -5
Boomzilla You certainly have tried a lot of combinations and given the MR a thorough run down. But, if you mean by your conclusion that the reason for the change in sound is an increase in dB level through the "presence range" (which is what I presume you mean), I am not ready to agree to that conclusion. I do agree that the range you are talking about sound remarkably clear with a rendu vs. without...but I'm not ready to conclude it's due to boosted frequencies. Why, you ask? 1) As I noted, I picked up huge improvements in the bass and treble also - so the full range. I don't know if I mentioned it or not, but the first time I listened to a MR - I noticed the improved bass and only later did I realize I had my sub off. (To run my sub in reference stereo mode with the complex wiring I have), I have to flip a switch and sometimes I forget.) I hear improvements on bass drum, bass guitar, upright acoustic bass, piano, mandolin, trumpets, sax, cymbals, male and female voices, and so on. And, the improvement I am hearing is not what I would call "dynamics"...it's what I would call clarity - and specifically...distinction between individual notes as opposed to a blurring of one note into another. It comes on most clearly to me when I hear 2 voices or 2 instruments that are very close in frequency...I can identify each with the rendu vs. often think it's just 1 instrument or 1 voice without. Examples are male voices singing in close harmonies (like in certain parts of Grateful Dead's Ripple). If the result were due to a boost in frequency, I should just hear what sounds like 1 but louder...but I hear 2...or more distinct voices. 2) I've heard differences between the microrendu, the ultrarendu, and the signature rendu...if the reason were a boost in certain frequency range, how is Sonore making differences across their lineup? Are they adding more and more boost across their range? I doubt that...that would get annoying quickly, I would think. That said, to test your theory would be fairly simple. If you measured frequency response with and without the microrendu, if there's a boost that's audible in part of the frequency range, it should show. Still got REW handy? To your point on what to improve in a $1k-$2k system...I do agree that there may be other parts of that kind of a system that would benefit from an incremental $1k. However, for a system that's already very strong overall, the improvement from a rendu product or the like can be quite well worth it and take a very good system to an all new level. Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 2, 2018 10:09:07 GMT -5
Boomzilla You certainly have tried a lot of combinations and given the MR a thorough run down. But, if you mean by your conclusion that the reason for the change in sound is an increase in dB level through the "presence range" (which is what I presume you mean), I am not ready to agree to that conclusion. I do agree that the range you are talking about sound remarkably clear with a rendu vs. without...but I'm not ready to conclude it's due to boosted frequencies. Hi Mark - No, I'm not saying the Microrendu has a boosted presence range in its frequency response. I am saying that it SOUNDS that way to me. Mr. KeithL noted some time ago that a DAC (or, in this case a streamer) can MEASURE absolutely flat but still SOUND differently. ...the improvement I am hearing is not what I would call "dynamics"...it's what I would call clarity - and specifically...distinction between individual notes as opposed to a blurring of one note into another. It comes on most clearly to me when I hear 2 voices or 2 instruments that are very close in frequency...I can identify each with the rendu vs. often think it's just 1 instrument or 1 voice without... No argument here - my Microrendu DOES add clarity (and dynamics). 2) I've heard differences between the microrendu, the ultrarendu, and the signature rendu...if the reason were a boost in certain frequency range, how is Sonore making differences across their lineup? Are they adding more and more boost across their range? I doubt that...that would get annoying quickly, I would think. So you're saying they're adding more and more "clarity"with their more expensive models? Thanks, mark - I always enjoy your comments! I've offered to loan my Microrendu to garbulky to see what he makes of it.[/quote] |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 2, 2018 10:27:19 GMT -5
Boomzilla - thanks for the clarification! Sounds like we agree then! On the higher end models, yes...the difference that I heard in clarity was more and more evident as I went up the product line. So, whatever they have learned, they can "dial" it. Pretty impressive to me...and it makes the engineer in me really curious. I also look forward to seeing gar's results and enjoy reading about your experiments. Mark
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Post by frisco on Dec 2, 2018 12:34:33 GMT -5
Compared my new ultra rendu against my old mr last night. I did see an improvement that one might describe amore of the same—more separation of notes and a little more presence. When I used the mr I would hear things that were missing compared to other sources and when I used the ur I would at times hear details missing with the mr.
a couple of other observations. My upstairs speakers, phase tech pc 60, are known for being unforgiving on bad recordings. Thought I had tamed that, until adding the mr with lps, when at times I had to turn down the volume for wayward soprano or shrill brass. With the ur, I still say to myself—she shouldn’t have tried that note—but I don’t reach for the control to turn down the volume.
Speaking of volume, the ur seems to accentuate the volume difference between music recorded/ mastered at what I perceive to be lower volumes, like revolver or all things must past— But when I turn up the volume the older recording sounds better than ever with the ur. I have no idea what is causing this effect.
overall, the combination of sound and much better ergonomics make the ur worth the extra cost, but I’m not sure the cost of a new ur is worth it if you already have an mr—unless you want one, like me, for a second system.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 2, 2018 13:47:03 GMT -5
...I also look forward to seeing gar's results and enjoy reading about your experiments... Alas, the garbulky has turned down the loan saying that it'll be too hard to implement on his system (no Ethernet output, maybe?). Today, I'll try moving the Microrendu from the Arcam and over to the Stealth DC-1 again. This is NOT a trivial move: 1. The Arcam uses all RCA interconnects - the DC-1 and everything downstream of it all use XLR 2. The subs have to be manually balanced to work without electronic bass management 3. New (unequal length) speaker wires have to be cobbled together 4. The Microrendu itself has to move from the AV rack to the "stereo only" rack 5. New power cords & Ethernet cords have to be installed for all the stereo gear,. Another two to three hours of work... |
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Post by novisnick on Dec 2, 2018 14:32:33 GMT -5
...I also look forward to seeing gar's results and enjoy reading about your experiments... Alas, the garbulky has turned down the loan saying that it'll be too hard to implement on his system (no Ethernet output, maybe?). Today, I'll try moving the Microrendu from the Arcam and over to the Stealth DC-1 again. This is NOT a trivial move: 1. The Arcam uses all RCA interconnects - the DC-1 and everything downstream of it all use XLR 2. The subs have to be manually balanced to work without electronic bass management 3. New (unequal length) speaker wires have to be cobbled together 4. The Microrendu itself has to move from the AV rack to the "stereo only" rack 5. New power cords & Ethernet cords have to be installed for all the stereo gear,. Another two to three hours of work... $2,100.00 move? |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 2, 2018 15:23:41 GMT -5
FWIW, I have my uRendu connected to my XMC-1’s USB input. Why would you use a separate DAC if you have an XMC-1?
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Post by Soup on Dec 2, 2018 15:45:43 GMT -5
Send me a PM if anyone wants to buy a used microrendu....................
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Post by sahmen on Dec 2, 2018 17:33:55 GMT -5
FWIW, I have my uRendu connected to my XMC-1’s USB input. Why would you use a separate DAC if you have an XMC-1? I wish you hadn't asked, because the answer might trigger a lot of uncomfortable blushes, reddened faces, unsolicited hand-wringing, the nagging of teeth, and all kinds of potential hazards, all of which I can certainly do without this Sunday evening... I am referring, in short, to the kind of "hoopla" one sometimes stirs up on this forum, involuntarily, whenever they report "hearing a difference," practically, difference of any kind in audio, even though one would think it is precisely the hearing and enjoyment of such unique differences that makes enthusiasts and audiophiles out of most of us. On the other hand, this might well go down more smoothly than I suspect, and that would be much, much better to my tastes, especially this evening. Be that as it may, and since I have come this far, let me attempt to finish what I have--err, no,--what you have started.  First of all : the XMC-1 is an excellent performer, for both music and HT purposes, even without the recent HDMI board or the ATMOS upgrades, both of which are still missing on mine,( since I would like to get both upgrades together, when the Atmos one becomes available). For the processing of both HT and musical material coming from computers, cd-players, and video streamers, such as the Roku, Nvidia shield, Amazon Fire, or Apple TV, the XMC-1 was trouncing every processor or AVR that came before it, at least in my own humble experience, until two years ago... What happened two years ago, you might ask? I simply discovered that I could squeeze even more/better 2-channel audio bliss from my rig by adding a capable standalone DAC to the chain, solely for 2-channel reference stereo listening, ironically, using XMC-1 itself as an interface between the DAC and my amps. My Schiit Yggdrasil proved that assumption to be accurate, and that was soon to be followed by my Metrum Acoustics Hex DAC (which I have since replaced with the Onyx)... For 2-channel stereo music "processed" (ironic, since no real processing allegedly occurs in Reference Stereo) through the XMC-1 in the Reference Stereo setting , I think both of those DACs offer me a listening experience that is superior in many ways to that of the XMC-1, whether I am listening through my tower speakers, or headphones. That is why my Ultrarendu is plugged (via a stello U3 USB==>> AES/EBU converter) into the Yggdrasil, most of the time, and my Metrum Acoustic Amber Roon Bridge/Endpoint is plugged into metrum Onyx DAC at the moment, And that is also why I prefer to plug my ERC-3 into the Yggdrasil for 2-channel CD music, even though, I have been listening to extremely limited amounts of CD based music ever since I discovered Roon/Tidal and the rendu and Ambre network players. Mind you, this is in no way a diss against the XMC-1's chops for handling music. My Oppo 203 is still hooked up to it not only for playing blu rays and videos, but also for SACDs. and any blu ray or DVD-music playback functionality... So are my standard streaming boxes (Amazon Fire, Apple TV, Nvidia Shield)... I am just saying that for purely "reference" calibre 2-channel stereo playback, I find the two standalone DACS I have mentioned a lot more exciting and fulfilling., I am also not referring to just any standalone DAC. I am sure there are several standalone DACs that cannot hold a candle to the one in the XMC-1. I simply like the sound of my Yggy Analog 2 and my Metrum Onyx better. YMMV, of course. |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 2, 2018 18:10:39 GMT -5
Boomzilla You certainly have tried a lot of combinations and given the MR a thorough run down. But, if you mean by your conclusion that the reason for the change in sound is an increase in dB level through the "presence range" (which is what I presume you mean), I am not ready to agree to that conclusion. I do agree that the range you are talking about sound remarkably clear with a rendu vs. without...but I'm not ready to conclude it's due to boosted frequencies. Hi Mark - No, I'm not saying the Microrendu has a boosted presence range in its frequency response. I am saying that it SOUNDS that way to me. Mr. KeithL noted some time ago that a DAC (or, in this case a streamer) can MEASURE absolutely flat but still SOUND differently. [/quote] But the MR is not a dac. It's a transport. Keith was saying the filters on a DAC like those in a Sabre dac can sound different. The MR does not have filters of that sort. |
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