klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 2, 2018 18:20:45 GMT -5
FWIW, I have my uRendu connected to my XMC-1’s USB input. Why would you use a separate DAC if you have an XMC-1? I used to use the DAC in my XMC-1 for 2-channel, but I tried the Geek and found it sounded better. So, I use that. The DAC in the XMC-1 is every bit as good as my DC-1, but there are other options I like better. Mark |
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 2, 2018 19:00:05 GMT -5
Hi Mark - No, I'm not saying the Microrendu has a boosted presence range in its frequency response. I am saying that it SOUNDS that way to me. Mr. KeithL noted some time ago that a DAC (or, in this case a streamer) can MEASURE absolutely flat but still SOUND differently. But the MR is not a dac. It's a transport. Keith was saying the filters on a DAC like those in a Sabre dac can sound different. The MR does not have filters of that sort. [/quote] |
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Post by Loop 7 on Dec 2, 2018 20:48:53 GMT -5
Seems like most of the critics are those who have not heard the Microrendu or a similar transport.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 2, 2018 21:36:25 GMT -5
Seems like most of the critics are those who have not heard the Microrendu or a similar transport. Agree. And...I have not actually heard a single person who has heard something of the rendu/SOtM/etc. type of device say something really bad about them. Of all I have read, I only have seen one who tried one and said "meh...found an option as good" (and that person didn't say what they found was better and it was more costly). The worst critique I have seen was that the MR is so tiny, doesn't fit into a rack, and has inputs on 1 end/outputs on the other or that the power supply they chose to use was clunky (the 2 step/box device Boomzilla is using for now). That's fairly telling. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 2, 2018 23:10:14 GMT -5
But the MR is not a dac. It's a transport. Keith was saying the filters on a DAC like those in a Sabre dac can sound different. The MR does not have filters of that sort. LOL - But it SOUNDS like it does!  |
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Post by novisnick on Dec 3, 2018 0:21:36 GMT -5
Hard to argue with what works! No matter how it does it!
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 3, 2018 3:27:19 GMT -5
The problem that people like KeithL and I have with Digital Data Bridges " sounding different" is that we're literally[1] talking about the faithful transport of Digital Data. If you're concerned with this not being true, you should retreat to the nearest cave and start bartering in Stone Knives and Fish Heads. And you absolutely should not have a Bank Account in any modern institution. Now, if Digital Data transports do "sound different", then we ought to be asking " why" instead of inventing " magic thinking" ... again, if you disagree with that, then feel free to find the nearest Comfy Cave. It's entirely possible that there are screwed up engineering issues associated with all of these systems. In my business — high speed Ethernet ... 100Gb/s and beyond — we go out of business OVERNIGHT if we have Silent Data Corruption. But apparently in the Audio Business, Silent Data Corruption is a Business Opportunity. (sigh) I hate sh** like this. So Again, it's freaking frustrating to me, as an engineer, that in the Audio Industry there are no readily available Data Error Statistics at any level for any of these Digital Data subsystems. I mean, seriously, we have crazy people spending stupid amounts of money for insane gadgetry with no real definition of success. Would it break the bank to offer some concrete, real world, actually meaningful, data on what's really happening for the Digital Transport portions of the signal chain which ARE measurably "correct" in a concrete manner. Yea Gods ... After that, let the Analog Magic reign supreme ... Casey [1] Not figuratively as the recent questions concerning usage. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 3, 2018 6:01:52 GMT -5
...I mean, seriously, we have crazy people spending stupid amounts of money for insane gadgetry with no real definition of success. Would it break the bank to offer some concrete, real world, actually meaningful, data on what's really happening for the Digital Transport portions of the signal chain which ARE measurably "correct" in a concrete manner. Yea Gods ... After that, let the Analog Magic reign supreme ...Casey You touch on the core of the problem, Casey - There ARE no readily-available data analysis tools to compare a source audio file from an Ethernet source to a destination audio file from a USB source. The manufacturers don't WANT their devices analyzed, and the consumers lack the tools to do it themselves. And this is surprising because those tools SHOULD be software-based, not hardware. To analyze differences three things would be needed: 1. A software tool that could identify an audio sample and capture it to a file from an Ethernet source in a common format 2. A software tool that could identify the exact SAME audio sample and capture it to a file from a USB source in the same format 3. A software that can compare the Ethernet file and the USB file, identifying any differences and then analyzing those differences in comprehensible terms The only reason that "voodoo explanations" abound is that such tools are not readily available. May I also point out that not everyone is an engineer, and disdain for those who lack your training does not become you. The average Lounge member is intelligent, rational, and eager to find logical explanations for the differences that they hear. It isn't their fault that the tools to answer their questions are not readily available. Cordially - Boomzilla |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 7:37:20 GMT -5
Now, if Digital Data transports do "sound different", then we ought to be asking " why" instead of inventing " magic thinking" ... again, if you disagree with that, then feel free to find the nearest Comfy Cave. I've said many times that I would like to know, but I've never seen a full explanation of "why". I've also multiple times shared what I have read that others say is making the difference (some combo of noise avoidance, jitter avoidance, and latency reduction in the step their parts perform via their code and their parts). Have I seen any data to support that there's a measurable change? No. But, given what I hear with my ears (the biggest single change to my system I have heard in years), at this point I don't care that I have not seen measurement data or a solid/complete theory. Think of it this way...I've bought a lot of gear for which I saw data up front and ended up being very happy with. Once I bought it and liked it based on how it sounded, having had the data up front makes me no more and no less happy when I listen to it. I also have bought things that had data available up front but I didn't look at it because I just happened to be in a store and listened to it and liked it for its sound and bought it. Had I seen the data, I'd be no more or less happy. So, in this case, others reco'd I try it for its sound. I got the chance with no risk to me at all. I love the sound. Not having the data in hand to prove I made the right call doesn't make me the slightest bit unhappy, and if I did now have the data - I'd be no more happy. And - I have also bought things the data and theory said "it should sound good", and I didn't like the equipment. Having the data to prove it should have sounded good didn't make me like it better. Look, I'm an engineer and I'd love to know why these things sound better and have data to prove it. It's been my life to know "why" and it has paid my bills. But, I don't know. And, I'm OK with that - because I love the sound. Still want to insult me and others for finding something that truly makes a difference? Go ahead. Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 8:09:50 GMT -5
The problem that people like KeithL and I have with Digital Data Bridges " sounding different" is that we're literally[1] talking about the faithful transport of Digital Data. If you're concerned with this not being true, you should retreat to the nearest cave and start bartering in Stone Knives and Fish Heads. And you absolutely should not have a Bank Account in any modern institution. Now, if Digital Data transports do "sound different", then we ought to be asking " why" instead of inventing " magic thinking" ... again, if you disagree with that, then feel free to find the nearest Comfy Cave. I thought of a contrary question for you...instead of asking "why do these digital data transports sound better?", why not ask the question "why does a PC or other related options sound worse?" In other words, don't question the better sounding one for doing its job well...question the one that doesn't sound as good. And ask, "What could it be doing wrong?" Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 3, 2018 9:40:58 GMT -5
May I make an attempt at summary? I want to tell time - I don't want to know how to build clocks. |
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Post by novisnick on Dec 3, 2018 9:43:16 GMT -5
May I make an attempt at summary: I want to tell time - I don't want to know how to build a clock. And it all has ties to clocks and timing. Im no clock builder either. 😁 |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 3, 2018 11:05:52 GMT -5
We can tell from measurements that the microrendu is prone to power supply noise sometimes adding large distortion depending on power supply vs direct to USB. Granted we have to also wonder what is causing such bad power in the first place - it may be setup issues or poorly done experiment.  With a good power supply, the microrendu creates a signal no different from connecting it directly to USB.  (From audioscience review) |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 3, 2018 12:00:19 GMT -5
Another example of how "measurebaters" lie. Measures the same - sounds different.
Ipso facto, they're measuring the wrong thing.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 13:28:08 GMT -5
We can tell from measurements that the microrendu is prone to power supply noise sometimes adding large distortion depending on power supply vs direct to USB. Granted we have to also wonder what is causing such bad power in the first place - it may be setup issues or poorly done experiment. (From audioscience review) 2 things: the first one is with a power supply most don't use with them. (The MR and UR use outboard PS's and the buy can choose what they want to use) And, from what I know, there's a "history" between the person who generated the data and the makers of the product, and many have disputed some statements the person who collected the data made when he published it. I'll just leave it at that. Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 3, 2018 13:30:31 GMT -5
We can tell from measurements that the microrendu is prone to power supply noise sometimes adding large distortion depending on power supply vs direct to USB. Granted we have to also wonder what is causing such bad power in the first place - it may be setup issues or poorly done experiment. (From audioscience review) 2 things: that's with a power supply most don't use with them. (The MR and UR use outboard PS's and the buy can choose what they want to use) And, from what I know, there's a "history" between the person who generated the data and the makers of the product, and many have disputed some statements the person who collected the data made when he published it. I'll just leave it at that. Mark Yeah, I'm not 100% sold that his test setup is fully accurate. For most of the time, his measurements tend to spec lower than most of the manufacturers. Whether that's his fault or the manufacturers I don't know. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 13:31:34 GMT -5
2 things: that's with a power supply most don't use with them. (The MR and UR use outboard PS's and the buy can choose what they want to use) And, from what I know, there's a "history" between the person who generated the data and the makers of the product, and many have disputed some statements the person who collected the data made when he published it. I'll just leave it at that. Mark Yeah, I'm not 100% sold that his test setup is fully accurate. For most of the time, his measurements tend to spec lower than most of the manufacturers. Whether that's his fault or the manufacturers I don't know. And there's that bit about him having an axe to grind... Mark |
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Post by Soup on Dec 3, 2018 13:47:22 GMT -5
 All i know is that it makes my music sound better (using the iFi iPower supply)
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 3, 2018 14:24:38 GMT -5
All i know is that it makes my music sound better (using the iFi iPower supply) And, every measurable piece of data I have seen my others on it say the iFi ipower PS's are very low in noise...except the 1 piece of data the "audioscience" guy (Amir) shows. Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 3, 2018 14:31:01 GMT -5
...I mean, seriously, we have crazy people spending stupid amounts of money for insane gadgetry with no real definition of success. Would it break the bank to offer some concrete, real world, actually meaningful, data on what's really happening for the Digital Transport portions of the signal chain which ARE measurably "correct" in a concrete manner. Yea Gods ... After that, let the Analog Magic reign supreme ...Casey You touch on the core of the problem, Casey - There ARE no readily-available data analysis tools to compare a source audio file from an Ethernet source to a destination audio file from a USB source. The manufacturers don't WANT their devices analyzed, and the consumers lack the tools to do it themselves. I think May I also point out that not everyone is an engineer, and disdain for those who lack your training does not become you. The average Lounge member is intelligent, rational, and eager to find logical explanations for the differences that they hear. It isn't their fault that the tools to answer their questions are not readily available. Cordially - Boomzilla I think these tools exist For those who want to use them. I will attempt to find out more |
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All i know is that it makes my music sound better (using the iFi iPower supply) 