klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 17, 2018 11:17:26 GMT -5
Well, if someone with an RMC-1 reported the same thing with two different USB streamers, I'm inclined to pop for buying those two and shipping them to Emotiva so they can hear it and then start debugging what's going on with the USB Inputs ... Casey So, when you say "debugging the USB inputs", to me - that sounds like you are presuming something is wrong with the receiving device and its USB inputs (the RMC-1 in what you are proposing). I don't think that's the case...note that I keep saying that I think what these things do is prevent bag things from happening before it gets to the USB inputs of a DAC. So, if I am correct, the thing to investigate would not be what's going on within the receiving device...it would be what's going on prior to the signal getting to it. Mark |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 17, 2018 12:36:15 GMT -5
Nah, changing people's minds is boring; I'm a scientist at heart.
The interesting things for me are A. determining that there is a measurable difference (using some set of measurement devices which would include people's ears), B. understanding (if possible) what's causing that, and C. seeing if it could be fixed with reasonable cost.
Casey
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 17, 2018 16:00:11 GMT -5
Nah, changing people's minds is boring; I'm a scientist at heart. The interesting things for me are A. determining that there is a measurable difference (using some set of measurement devices which would include people's ears), B. understanding (if possible) what's causing that, and C. seeing if it could be fixed with reasonable cost. Casey If you want "A", well, you already have the ears of me, boomzilla, dyohn, brubacca, sahmen, novisnick, chicagorspec, wilbuthegoose, bitsandbytes, and more who have experienced these types of devices and report a measurable by ear difference. And, I don't recall a single person who has tried one who had said "worse" or "no difference at all". On "C", again - per my last comment...it appears you are continuing to think that the "issue" is on the receiving unit's part. I think you are wrong on that. Or, am I misinterpreting what you are saying? On "B", if you figure it out, keep it secret and go into production with your own option and sell it to us for a value price! Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 19, 2018 7:00:54 GMT -5
Applies to streamers too...
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 20, 2018 17:36:06 GMT -5
Just to clarify something - once and for all.
A digital audio FILE really is just bits.... there is nothing else there.... period.... end.
A digital audio SIGNAL is bits and a clock..... there is nothing else there that is part of the digital audio signal. (Anything else that's there, like noise, is not part of the signal, and the only way to improve it is to get rid of it.)
So, if you had a perfect DAC, it would take the bits, create a new perfect clock for them, and ignore any noise or anything else that was present. Therefore, anything that delivered the correct bits to your perfect DAC would sound the same as anything else that delivered the same perfect bits.
And the ONLY way a transport can alter the sound, other than by altering the bits, is to remove something extra, which shouldn't be there, but which your imperfect DAC is unable to ignore as it should. Or, to phrase that slightly differently, if your DAC was perfect, then the transport COULD NOT POSSIBLY do anything better than delivering the bits perfect and unaltered. As such, if the transport delivers the bits correctly, and makes everything sound better, then it MUST be "fixing an issue with the receiving unit". The presumption would therefore be that "Sonore has found a problem common to all or most DACs and found a way to compensate for or correct it by improving the quality of the incoming signal".
Or, to phrase it differently.... If two DACs produce audio output that sounds different, when fed the same bits, then you have "an issue on the receiving end"..... (Because any two DACs, when fed the exact same bits, should produce the exact same output.) And, if altering something upstream causes this difference, then it must indeed be "compensating for an issue on the receiving end".
Again, however, nothing is perfect, and it is quite useful to produce an improvement by correcting for a flaw in another device that may otherwise be degrading it.
Nah, changing people's minds is boring; I'm a scientist at heart. The interesting things for me are A. determining that there is a measurable difference (using some set of measurement devices which would include people's ears), B. understanding (if possible) what's causing that, and C. seeing if it could be fixed with reasonable cost. Casey If you want "A", well, you already have the ears of me, boomzilla, dyohn, brubacca, sahmen, novisnick, chicagorspec, wilbuthegoose, bitsandbytes, and more who have experienced these types of devices and report a measurable by ear difference. And, I don't recall a single person who has tried one who had said "worse" or "no difference at all". On "C", again - per my last comment...it appears you are continuing to think that the "issue" is on the receiving unit's part. I think you are wrong on that. Or, am I misinterpreting what you are saying? On "B", if you figure it out, keep it secret and go into production with your own option and sell it to us for a value price! Mark |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 20, 2018 17:39:45 GMT -5
Like I said KeithL, if someone tries two different transports on the RMC-1 and says that one is better than the other, I'll buy one of each and send them to you for your amusement. That way if you discover that the RMC-1's USB input has a problem, you can solve it once and for all there and everyone can just buy $35 Raspberry Pi's afterwards ... :-) Casey |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 20, 2018 18:09:59 GMT -5
Like I said KeithL, if someone tries two different transports on the RMC-1 and says that one is better than the other, I'll buy one of each and send them to you for your amusement. That way if you discover that the RMC-1's USB input has a problem, you can solve it once and for all there and everyone can just buy $35 Raspberry Pi's afterwards ... :-) Casey Please do explain to me what the RMC-1 has to do with this? I see zero relationship. Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 20, 2018 18:11:21 GMT -5
Just to clarify something - once and for all. A digital audio FILE really is just bits.... there is nothing else there.... period.... end. A digital audio SIGNAL is bits and a clock..... there is nothing else there that is part of the digital audio signal. (Anything else that's there, like noise, is not part of the signal, and the only way to improve it is to get rid of it.) So, if you had a perfect DAC, it would take the bits, create a new perfect clock for them, and ignore any noise or anything else that was present. Therefore, anything that delivered the correct bits to your perfect DAC would sound the same as anything else that delivered the same perfect bits.
And the ONLY way a transport can alter the sound, other than by altering the bits, is to remove something extra, which shouldn't be there, but which your imperfect DAC is unable to ignore as it should. Or, to phrase that slightly differently, if your DAC was perfect, then the transport COULD NOT POSSIBLY do anything better than delivering the bits perfect and unaltered. As such, if the transport delivers the bits correctly, and makes everything sound better, then it MUST be "fixing an issue with the receiving unit". The presumption would therefore be that "Sonore has found a problem common to all or most DACs and found a way to compensate for or correct it by improving the quality of the incoming signal". Or, to phrase it differently.... If two DACs produce audio output that sounds different, when fed the same bits, then you have "an issue on the receiving end"..... (Because any two DACs, when fed the exact same bits, should produce the exact same output.) And, if altering something upstream causes this difference, then it must indeed be "compensating for an issue on the receiving end". Again, however, nothing is perfect, and it is quite useful to produce an improvement by correcting for a flaw in another device that may otherwise be degrading it.
If you want "A", well, you already have the ears of me, boomzilla, dyohn, brubacca, sahmen, novisnick, chicagorspec, wilbuthegoose, bitsandbytes, and more who have experienced these types of devices and report a measurable by ear difference. And, I don't recall a single person who has tried one who had said "worse" or "no difference at all". On "C", again - per my last comment...it appears you are continuing to think that the "issue" is on the receiving unit's part. I think you are wrong on that. Or, am I misinterpreting what you are saying? On "B", if you figure it out, keep it secret and go into production with your own option and sell it to us for a value price! Mark And now the extended version: Enjoy! Mark |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 20, 2018 18:21:29 GMT -5
Wow, is this still going on? I see the "discussion" continues to be those of us who have used these devices and like them trying to be told how wrong we are by those who have not. Sad.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 20, 2018 18:38:13 GMT -5
Please do explain to me what the RMC-1 has to do with this? I see zero relationship. That's my personal interest. It's the platform I'm planning on buying[1] so I have a vested interest in seeing it work well. The hypothesis that I'm going with to explain what's going on is based on this abbreviated picture of the Data Path: [[ Music Data Storage of some kind ]] -> [[ Transport "A" or "B" ]] -> [[ DAC ]]The DAC is consuming the Digital Audio Data from the Music Data Storage. Transport "A" and "B" are tasked with the last leg of the path to get the original Digital Audio Data into the DAC. This is supposed to be a bit-perfect transportation of the Digital Music Data from the Music Data Storage into the DAC. Absent Transport "A" or "B" actually changing the Digital Audio Data, if there's a difference in the sound, then there's a bug in the DAC's input section. Casey [1] Though I may end up with an RMC-1L (AKA RMC-2) or XMC-2 from the same platform family. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 20, 2018 18:55:05 GMT -5
Wow, is this still going on? I see the "discussion" continues to be those of us who have used these devices and like them trying to be told how wrong we are by those who have not. Sad. No, there are just some who want to know what's going on. Consider it the Curious Scientist in me ... And feel free to ascribe "Curious" at any comma-point you like ... :-) Casey |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 20, 2018 19:01:33 GMT -5
Wow, is this still going on? I see the "discussion" continues to be those of us who have used these devices and like them trying to be told how wrong we are by those who have not. Sad. No, there are just some who want to know what's going on. Consider it the Curious Scientist in me ... And feel free to ascribe "Curious" at any comma-point you like ... :-) Casey It's simple, really, as I've tried to explain before. It is not just "digital bits" being transported from one medium to another. It is client-server software being handled on very electrically quiet small, specialized computers. What we are reporting is that some specialized computers (SoTM, Sonore products) sound better to us than other specialized computers (Raspberry Pi) and, in my case, that the Roon software sounds better than the LMS software. Trying to say it's because of some issue of USB or dismissing it as "impossible" is arrogant ignorance hiding behind technical expertise. I am also a scientist and an engineer and for years dismissed higher-end players and streamers as snake oil. I was completely wrong once I used my ears. I say try one if you use network audio and listen for yourself. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 20, 2018 19:32:43 GMT -5
Please do explain to me what the RMC-1 has to do with this? I see zero relationship. That's my personal interest. It's the platform I'm planning on buying[1] so I have a vested interest in seeing it work well. The hypothesis that I'm going with to explain what's going on is based on this abbreviated picture of the Data Path: [[ Music Data Storage of some kind ]] -> [[ Transport "A" or "B" ]] -> [[ DAC ]]The DAC is consuming the Digital Audio Data from the Music Data Storage. Transport "A" and "B" are tasked with the last leg of the path to get the original Digital Audio Data into the DAC. This is supposed to be a bit-perfect transportation of the Digital Music Data from the Music Data Storage into the DAC. Absent Transport "A" or "B" actually changing the Digital Audio Data, if there's a difference in the sound, then there's a bug in the DAC's input section. Casey [1] Though I may end up with an RMC-1L (AKA RMC-2) or XMC-2 from the same platform family. So...you are thinking that somehow the RMC-1/XMC-2 DAC will suddenly have a different result than an LH Labs, Schiit, Mytek, DC-1, and more with these devices. Care to share your hypothesis on why you think that would be the case? What specific bug do they all seem to have on their input sections? Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 20, 2018 19:35:24 GMT -5
Wow, is this still going on? I see the "discussion" continues to be those of us who have used these devices and like them trying to be told how wrong we are by those who have not. Sad. From now on, I will mainly just share clips of the Sicilian from the Princess Bride. It seems appropriate. Mark |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 20, 2018 20:35:01 GMT -5
Wow, is this still going on? I see the "discussion" continues to be those of us who have used these devices and like them trying to be told how wrong we are by those who have not. Sad. I once was lost, but now I'm found. I was a skeptic, but I bought one on approval, and IT MAKES A LARGE DIFFERENCE - AN IMPROVEMENT that for me was worth the cost. Try one for yourself. Small Green Computer offers a money-back offer. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 20, 2018 20:55:49 GMT -5
(And they have some very good deals right now...)
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 20, 2018 22:54:28 GMT -5
No, there are just some who want to know what's going on. Consider it the Curious Scientist in me ... And feel free to ascribe "Curious" at any comma-point you like ... :-) It's simple, really, as I've tried to explain before. It is not just "digital bits" being transported from one medium to another. It is client-server software being handled on very electrically quiet small, specialized computers. What we are reporting is that some specialized computers (SoTM, Sonore products) sound better to us than other specialized computers (Raspberry Pi) and, in my case, that the Roon software sounds better than the LMS software. I'm not going to be able to buy off on that argument, so let's just let that thread die. So...you are thinking that somehow the RMC-1/XMC-2 DAC will suddenly have a different result than an LH Labs, Schiit, Mytek, DC-1, and more with these devices. Care to share your hypothesis on why you think that would be the case? What specific bug do they all seem to have on their input sections? I don't know about the RMC-1, but I would certainly hope so. The argument is fairly simple. If Transport "A" makes things wonderful, then I can put a cardboard box around Transport "A" and the DAC and call that the new DAC' with the same improved performance. Look, I'm not telling people that what you're hearing isn't true. One of my best friends also says that the move from a Raspbery Pi 3+ running the RuPieee distribution to a SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo totally changed the sound (for the better) of his Team NT-503. What I am saying is that, as a very curious person, I'm not satisfied with merely observing data. I want to know "why". If there's something that these Transports are doing, it ought to be possible to simply do the same in the RMC-1 or any other expensive DAC (because the cost of "making things wonderful" may preclude doing this on cheaper DACs). Casey |
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 20, 2018 23:14:32 GMT -5
It's simple, really, as I've tried to explain before. It is not just "digital bits" being transported from one medium to another. It is client-server software being handled on very electrically quiet small, specialized computers. What we are reporting is that some specialized computers (SoTM, Sonore products) sound better to us than other specialized computers (Raspberry Pi) and, in my case, that the Roon software sounds better than the LMS software. I'm not going to be able to buy off on that argument, so let's just let that thread die. So...you are thinking that somehow the RMC-1/XMC-2 DAC will suddenly have a different result than an LH Labs, Schiit, Mytek, DC-1, and more with these devices. Care to share your hypothesis on why you think that would be the case? What specific bug do they all seem to have on their input sections? I don't know about the RMC-1, but I would certainly hope so. The argument is fairly simple. If Transport "A" makes things wonderful, then I can put a cardboard box around Transport "A" and the DAC and call that the new DAC' with the same improved performance. Look, I'm not telling people that what you're hearing isn't true. One of my best friends also says that the move from a Raspbery Pi 3+ running the RuPieee distribution to a SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo totally changed the sound (for the better) of his Team NT-503. What I am saying is that, as a very curious person, I'm not satisfied with merely observing data. I want to know "why". If there's something that these Transports are doing, it ought to be possible to simply do the same in the RMC-1 or any other expensive DAC (because the cost of "making things wonderful" may preclude doing this on cheaper DACs). Casey You do not have to observe data you silly you just need to listen to it. You are really starting to sound pathetic. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 20, 2018 23:40:14 GMT -5
Curious, pathetic, sure. But that's me.
Casey
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 20, 2018 23:44:34 GMT -5
Curious, pathetic, sure. But that's me. Casey Yes you so keep it to yourself. |
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