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Post by brubacca on Dec 21, 2018 15:44:46 GMT -5
Again you can go through all the paragraphs you want trying to convince yourself that there is no difference or convince us that we can't of heard a difference.
The fact still remains that the MicroRendu is the best transport in my system for musical enjoyment.
Do you have to understand how an airplane flies to fly somewhere?
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 21, 2018 15:47:57 GMT -5
Actually, yes. But as I said, I'm very curious and investigate lots of things across a broad spectrum of interests from High-Energy Particle Physics, to Cancer Research, to Signal Processing, to History and World Affairs, etc., etc. At heart, I'm a scientist.
Casey
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 21, 2018 15:54:43 GMT -5
I said it before, but it is worth repeating...in the end, all the debate is like the Sicilian blabbering on, and it must be tried...and we know how it ended!
Mark
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 21, 2018 16:00:00 GMT -5
All I know is that the quality of music reproduction has never been better for me. And I don't care how it does its magic, I just don't ever want to go back.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 21, 2018 16:04:34 GMT -5
Even though it's about measurements and "objectivists" I give you a recent tirade by Mike Moffatt of Theta and Schiit, the father of the DAC and digital audio expert, on the value of judgement, which seems appropriate here. If this industry professional feels this way, those of you with lesser qualifications should pay heed:
"As I rub my palms together it is now sedition time: I refer to the dubious value of many audio measurements! After all, over time has evolved a set of measurements which have been fancied by many to be the arbiter of all good and bad within the design of audio gear. In fact, many companies will spend up to thirty grand or so for the highest rated measurement gear (AKA protection money) to defend themselves against criers and scribes who adjudge audio gear solely by those measurements judged as proper in the realm of current wisdom. It has caused a race to buy the biggest and longest as a defense. It is seldom considered that the most dyspeptic and critical of these measurebators have seldom attended live music concerts (if any) nor built any bit of audio gear – ever. This, of course, is not meant that all who suffer from the measurebator affliction are of this ilk.
Does this mean I dismiss out of hand measurements of my gear (or any other gear, for that matter). Conditionally, no. One major concern is that I have observed many examples of gear which measure perfectly well only to sound like ass. This tells me that I can trust my senses to tell me that we are not measuring everything that matters; further, I know not yet (nor anyone else) what else matters in measurement. Of a few things, however, I am certain; an example is that dithering adds a measured improvement in my multibit gear of some 20-30db in s/n +n. Can anyone hear this given the start figure is some almost 90 db down? I have tried in vain. I defy anyone to hear the difference. In fact, I am willing to bet, in a public forum, that no one, nobody, can differentiate otherwise identical dithered/not dithered converters. All that remains is for me to brush up on statistics (it has been fifty plus years since my statistics class), figure out a prize and set it up at a show. I phucking mean it – let’s expose measurebation for what it is not and what it does besides cause blindness.
When we get way beyond the edge of the measurebation wing we find nothing but haters of audio, haters of designers, and haters of gear. They are giddy and gleeful when they find reasons supporting the futility of anything audio. (Not all mind you – it is just that too many exist.) I am amazed just how many such false audio opinion leaders exist and the acolytes they spawn. Read most any forum long enough and you will see it. Posts such as “I will not be fooled by Brand A/B/C/D/E who have non perfect measurements as measured by Conan the Crusher as he exposes all the hucksters and posers at his everything about audio dot com website measured with his accujack analyzer which is the best in the entire world so you better believe these companies live to screw their customers. Really?
How about a little fun? How about a lot less vitriol from zealous measurers? How about we realize that what we have in common is we are all members of a somewhat dysfunctional audio family? It’s a hobby, remember. How about we Bob over to the sites of those in the measurement wing not beyond the feathers who actually like not only audio gear, and audio people, but who measure to inform. I know there is at least one out there."
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Post by brubacca on Dec 21, 2018 16:10:30 GMT -5
Actually, yes. But as I said, I'm very curious and investigate lots of things across a broad spectrum of interests from High-Energy Particle Physics, to Cancer Research, to Signal Processing, to History and World Affairs, etc., etc. At heart, I'm a scientist. Casey You must not have young kids at home. I barely eek out a couple hours a week to listen and enjoy music. Yes, we are that busy. So instead of pondering I just enjoy. Different stokes cor different folks. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 21, 2018 16:13:40 GMT -5
I'm kind of agreeing with Casey's answer there.
If someone told me they had a new airplane that could get me to my destination in half the time...
No matter how many people said they'd tried it and found the flight to be both quick and comfortable... I would want to know how it worked before getting on that plane... (And that's doubly true if, out of all those happy customers, none had actually put a stop watch on it.)
Again you can go through all the paragraphs you want trying to convince yourself that there is no difference or convince us that we can't of heard a difference. The fact still remains that the MicroRendu is the best transport in my system for musical enjoyment. Do you have to understand how an airplane flies to fly somewhere? |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Dec 21, 2018 16:15:22 GMT -5
Yeah, unfortunately kids never happened for me. And I'm very sympathetic to the busyness that children bring. I watched my sisters go through it as well as many of my friends. You have both my sympathies and respect.
Casey
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Post by garbulky on Dec 21, 2018 16:15:22 GMT -5
There's nothing wrong with great measurements AND good sound.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 21, 2018 16:55:51 GMT -5
In light of that I would like to point out something... interesting... (And, make no mistake, I offer kudos to Schiit Audio for both excellent products and honesty.)
Schiit Audio may sometimes mention that many of their customers find their gear to sound good (as you will often see me do). However, unless I've missed it somewhere, they never actually specifically claim that any of their gear "sounds better" than anyone else's. They simply provide all the technical information and allow their customers, and potential customers, to make their own choices.
You will also notice that, in spite of Mike's personal opinion, and his tirade..... Schiit Audio still provides reasonably thorough specifications on all their gear. And, in spite of Mike's well known dislike of USB inputs..... Almost all of their current DACs offer USB inputs. (And, in fact, they frequently imply that their latest USB input circuitry doesn't sound so bad after all.)
I absolutely support your right to make your choices based on whatever you like... Therefore, I absolutely respect your right to choose what you prefer to listen to based on subjective listening experiences... However, in return, you need to respect other people's right to ask for actual measurements and technical explanations before making their choices... And, to be honest, subjective experiences are... subjective...
So, I absolutely support your right to offer your subjective opinion that "it sounds really good". However, in return, I also support someone else's right to point out that there appears to be no technical justification for that claim. And I would certainly never suggest that someone who has personally found a Rendu to sound better to them shouldn't buy one and enjoy it.
Even though it's about measurements and "objectivists" I give you a recent tirade by Mike Moffatt of Theta and Schiit, the father of the DAC and digital audio expert, on the value of judgement, which seems appropriate here. If this industry professional feels this way, those of you with lesser qualifications should pay heed: "As I rub my palms together it is now sedition time: I refer to the dubious value of many audio measurements! After all, over time has evolved a set of measurements which have been fancied by many to be the arbiter of all good and bad within the design of audio gear. In fact, many companies will spend up to thirty grand or so for the highest rated measurement gear (AKA protection money) to defend themselves against criers and scribes who adjudge audio gear solely by those measurements judged as proper in the realm of current wisdom. It has caused a race to buy the biggest and longest as a defense. It is seldom considered that the most dyspeptic and critical of these measurebators have seldom attended live music concerts (if any) nor built any bit of audio gear – ever. This, of course, is not meant that all who suffer from the measurebator affliction are of this ilk. Does this mean I dismiss out of hand measurements of my gear (or any other gear, for that matter). Conditionally, no. One major concern is that I have observed many examples of gear which measure perfectly well only to sound like ass. This tells me that I can trust my senses to tell me that we are not measuring everything that matters; further, I know not yet (nor anyone else) what else matters in measurement. Of a few things, however, I am certain; an example is that dithering adds a measured improvement in my multibit gear of some 20-30db in s/n +n. Can anyone hear this given the start figure is some almost 90 db down? I have tried in vain. I defy anyone to hear the difference. In fact, I am willing to bet, in a public forum, that no one, nobody, can differentiate otherwise identical dithered/not dithered converters. All that remains is for me to brush up on statistics (it has been fifty plus years since my statistics class), figure out a prize and set it up at a show. I phucking mean it – let’s expose measurebation for what it is not and what it does besides cause blindness. When we get way beyond the edge of the measurebation wing we find nothing but haters of audio, haters of designers, and haters of gear. They are giddy and gleeful when they find reasons supporting the futility of anything audio. (Not all mind you – it is just that too many exist.) I am amazed just how many such false audio opinion leaders exist and the acolytes they spawn. Read most any forum long enough and you will see it. Posts such as “I will not be fooled by Brand A/B/C/D/E who have non perfect measurements as measured by Conan the Crusher as he exposes all the hucksters and posers at his everything about audio dot com website measured with his accujack analyzer which is the best in the entire world so you better believe these companies live to screw their customers. Really? How about a little fun? How about a lot less vitriol from zealous measurers? How about we realize that what we have in common is we are all members of a somewhat dysfunctional audio family? It’s a hobby, remember. How about we Bob over to the sites of those in the measurement wing not beyond the feathers who actually like not only audio gear, and audio people, but who measure to inform. I know there is at least one out there." |
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Post by brubacca on Dec 22, 2018 9:51:24 GMT -5
I'm kind of agreeing with Casey's answer there. If someone told me they had a new airplane that could get me to my destination in half the time...
No matter how many people said they'd tried it and found the flight to be both quick and comfortable... I would want to know how it worked before getting on that plane... (And that's doubly true if, out of all those happy customers, none had actually put a stop watch on it.)
Again you can go through all the paragraphs you want trying to convince yourself that there is no difference or convince us that we can't of heard a difference. The fact still remains that the MicroRendu is the best transport in my system for musical enjoyment. Do you have to understand how an airplane flies to fly somewhere? I call BS on this. You couldn't possibly get the details on the planes that you seem to want for these streaming devices. I may have only taken 6 aerospace related classes in college, but I have a faint idea as to the detail going into a wing section or engine. Those details just aren't available to the public. I had an entire class (called Gas Dynamics) that dealt with different jet engine sections and their behavior with either sub or supersonic airflow through them. This was all very cursory and undergrad level. Merry Christmas by the way. This may sound aggressive, but I am chuckling while I type this. |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 22, 2018 10:22:36 GMT -5
Ask the pharma industry about this. I actually read the physician info for anything prescribed to my wife or to me - I'll occasionally see something akin to "We don't really know how it works, but it does".
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 22, 2018 10:39:52 GMT -5
I'm kind of agreeing with Casey's answer there. If someone told me they had a new airplane that could get me to my destination in half the time...
No matter how many people said they'd tried it and found the flight to be both quick and comfortable... I would want to know how it worked before getting on that plane... (And that's doubly true if, out of all those happy customers, none had actually put a stop watch on it.)
Again you can go through all the paragraphs you want trying to convince yourself that there is no difference or convince us that we can't of heard a difference. The fact still remains that the MicroRendu is the best transport in my system for musical enjoyment. Do you have to understand how an airplane flies to fly somewhere? Do you want to know how they can make the airplane faster out of curiosity or because you think you can potentially make a better plane? |
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 22, 2018 10:44:15 GMT -5
Ask the pharma industry about this. I actually read the physician info for anything prescribed to my wife or to me - I'll occasionally see something akin to "We don't really know how it works, but it does". Aka placebo effect |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 22, 2018 11:06:55 GMT -5
I'm kind of agreeing with Casey's answer there. If someone told me they had a new airplane that could get me to my destination in half the time...
No matter how many people said they'd tried it and found the flight to be both quick and comfortable... I would want to know how it worked before getting on that plane... (And that's doubly true if, out of all those happy customers, none had actually put a stop watch on it.)
I call BS on this. You couldn't possibly get the details on the planes that you seem to want for these streaming devices. I may have only taken 6 aerospace related classes in college, but I have a faint idea as to the detail going into a wing section or engine. Those details just aren't available to the public. I had an entire class (called Gas Dynamics) that dealt with different jet engine sections and their behavior with either sub or supersonic airflow through them. This was all very cursory and undergrad level. Merry Christmas by the way. This may sound aggressive, but I am chuckling while I type this. Be careful! Now you are inviting a dissertation on keith's theory on how an airplane works!!!! Mark (PS - I'm with you on this...I'm a ChE by training and worked in consumer products, and so far - I've never heard of anyone asking whether newtonian or non-newtonian behavior of Tide liquid affected the cleaning efficacy in a washing machine...) |
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Post by sahmen on Dec 22, 2018 16:32:53 GMT -5
In other news SOtM USA is having a 15% off storewide discount saleUse code VIP15 to get the 15% off discount on all products through January 1st, 2019. Happy savings, Happy Holidays, and most essentially of all, Happy listening !!!   Incidentally, it's that time of the year... Time for getting oneself seriously blown away by some seeeerious audio goodness :   |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Dec 22, 2018 19:37:36 GMT -5
Ask the pharma industry about this. I actually read the physician info for anything prescribed to my wife or to me - I'll occasionally see something akin to "We don't really know how it works, but it does". Aka placebo effect Nope. They don’t know how certain drugs, like certain anesthesias, work, but they use them in surgery. Definitely not placebo when they successfully put a person to “sleep” for surgery |
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Post by LuisV on Dec 24, 2018 13:14:13 GMT -5
I think that given my current system with an old Logitech Squeeze Touch operating as a Roon Bridge into my old DMC-1 via Optical S/PDIF (because the DMC-1 doesn't even have a USB input), that this would be mostly a waste. I suppose I could invest in some kind of fancier USB to Optical S/PDIF device ( KeithL mentioned the Audiophilleo II in one of his posts) which I could then use in conjunction with something like the SOtM MS-200ultra Neo, but then I'd be spending almost $2,000 attempting to experiment with retrofitting better sound for my old DMC-1. I'd rather spend that money on an RMC-1 (or XMC-2, or RMC-1L). Casey
Casey, the Schiit Eitr is a fantastic USB SPDIF converter with galvanic isolation and a nice power supply. It only costs $179.00. I seriously doubt you can do better regardless of cost. I use one in conjunction with a microRendu into my XMC-1. Both devices improve the sound of my system, separately or together. Not to further this debate, but its curious to hear that the Eitr extracted additional details or improved the sound after the mRendu. DYohn I believe you have or at least had an Eitr, have you tried it after the mRendu or uRendu? After a few PMs with klinemj, I gave Roon and ropieee a try and so far I'm liking what I've been hearing. No HAT, simply USB out from the Pi to the Eitr and then into my Modi Uber / Vali 2 combo... been listening through my HD6XX headphones all morning. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 24, 2018 13:19:27 GMT -5
Casey, the Schiit Eitr is a fantastic USB SPDIF converter with galvanic isolation and a nice power supply. It only costs $179.00. I seriously doubt you can do better regardless of cost. I use one in conjunction with a microRendu into my XMC-1. Both devices improve the sound of my system, separately or together. Not to further this debate, but its curious to hear that the Eitr extracted additional details or improved the sound after the mRendu. DYohn I believe you have or at least had an Eitr, have you tried it after the mRendu or uRendu? After a few PMs with klinemj, I gave Roon and ropieee a try and so far I'm liking what I've been hearing. No HAT, simply USB out from the Pi to the Eitr and then into my Modi Uber / Vali 2 combo... been listening through my HD6XX headphones all morning. Eitr worked well between the Ultrarendu and a DAC I was using that did not have a USB input. It is a very good USB to S/PDIF converter. |
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Post by Loop 7 on Dec 24, 2018 13:27:08 GMT -5
I feel like a complete weirdo in that I have never looked at nor considered test data for an audio gear purchase.
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