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Post by Porscheguy on Nov 29, 2018 19:32:53 GMT -5
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Post by jjkessler on Nov 29, 2018 23:09:25 GMT -5
Still love putting a record on the turntable on lunch break and cranking it when working from home. For me, sure, digital is precise and convenient but., albums have both warmth as well as bringing back memories of growing up and dropping the needle on a new album that took your entire paycheck to buy...Vinyl knocks 40 years off my actual age while listening to them
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Post by novisnick on Nov 30, 2018 0:10:36 GMT -5
Still love putting a record on the turntable on lunch break and cranking it when working from home. For me, sure, digital is precise and convenient but., albums have both warmth as well as bringing back memories of growing up and dropping the needle on a new album that took your entire paycheck to buy...Vinyl knocks 40 years off my actual age while listening to them |
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Post by amped on Nov 30, 2018 10:31:09 GMT -5
In a good recording vinyl can easily offer a lifelike reproduction of the recording space...Something that a Squared off digital signal can't reproduce but digital is getting much better.
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Post by 405x5 on Nov 30, 2018 11:03:17 GMT -5
Never will I forget the day my brother walked into my house with a compact disc player. We hooked the thing up, my jaw dropped. Records ended right there. Bill |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Nov 30, 2018 11:20:55 GMT -5
That was exactly my experience.
I though vinyl albums sounded fine, except that the surface noise and ticks and pops always annoyed me. And, unlike some people, I always viewed the ritual of carefully extracting the album from the sleeve, cleaning it, and gently placing it on the turntable, to be more annoying than pleasing. And setting up, adjusting, tweaking, and otherwise fiddling with the turntable was simply a chore.
To me, CDs simply represented the end of everything that annoyed me about vinyl. And, in many cases (but not always), they actually sounded better.
Do some CDs sound awful, and especially many of the early ones? Absolutely.
However, many vinyl lovers seem to forget that there were also plenty of vinyl albums that sounded lousy as well.
And, unlike vinyl albums, and barring rare problems, CDs SOUND THE SAME FOREVER.
They don't wear out. They don't mysteriously acquire ticks and pops. And you don't find that the tiny speck of dust you missed when putting them away has made your favorite song unlistenable the next time you try to play it. (And, if you're worried about that, you can make a backup of a CD.)
Never will I forget the day my brother walked into my house with a compact disc player. We hooked the thing up, my jaw dropped. Records ended right there. Bill |
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Post by Porscheguy on Nov 30, 2018 11:29:18 GMT -5
Love that 64db SN ratio from vinyl. And the pops and clicks  |
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Post by 405x5 on Nov 30, 2018 11:40:52 GMT -5
That was exactly my experience.
I though vinyl albums sounded fine, except that the surface noise and ticks and pops always annoyed me. And, unlike some people, I always viewed the ritual of carefully extracting the album from the sleeve, cleaning it, and gently placing it on the turntable, to be more annoying than pleasing. And setting up, adjusting, tweaking, and otherwise fiddling with the turntable was simply a chore.
To me, CDs simply represented the end of everything that annoyed me about vinyl. And, in many cases (but not always), they actually sounded better.
Do some CDs sound awful, and especially many of the early ones? Absolutely.
However, many vinyl lovers seem to forget that there were also plenty of vinyl albums that sounded lousy as well.
And, unlike vinyl albums, and barring rare problems, CDs SOUND THE SAME FOREVER.
They don't wear out. They don't mysteriously acquire ticks and pops. And you don't find that the tiny speck of dust you missed when putting them away has made your favorite song unlistenable the next time you try to play it. (And, if you're worried about that, you can make a backup of a CD.)
Never will I forget the day my brother walked into my house with a compact disc player. We hooked the thing up, my jaw dropped. Records ended right there. Bill What Keith said.... I would only echo the longevity thing, that you can sit down 20 years after the fact and hear a disc sound as pure as it did in 1988 (or whatever). Bill |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Nov 30, 2018 12:09:43 GMT -5
At the risk of admitting to a bit of OCD I'll go even a bit further....
One of the things that I always hated the most about vinyl was the uncertainty in general.
If I played an album and heard a tick, I'd get up, clean it off, and play that track again... just to make sure the tick was gone. And, if that tick wasn't gone, and wouldn't yield to a more thorough cleaning, I'd end up buying a new copy. And, in fact, on albums I really liked, sometimes I'd buy a spare copy - just in case something happened to my other copy. And then there were the discussions about whether certain batches were better than others, or whether another copy, made at the beginning of the life of a new master, might be better. And, yes, they also sometimes just plain wear. And, whenever I took out a record to play, there was always a bit of the "hold breath until we hear that it didn't get damaged sitting on the shelf" - because sometimes it did.
Now, comparing that to CDs.... All of the CDs from a certain master are identical; so no worries about whether to buy the top one in the pile, or the one twenty down from the top. When I RIP a CD, my ripping program actually confirms every track using checksums (so now I know both the RIP and the CD are perfect). And, once the files are on my hard disc, I can back up that track, or my entire collection. I also have a nice little utility that can run checksums on the whole disc; so, if I ever wonder, I can hit a few keys and verify that ALL of the tracks in my collection are perfect.
(Imagine being able to hit a few buttons and confirm that every album in your vinyl collection was perfect, and hadn't picked up any ticks, scratches, or wear.) And, if I worry about losing my collection if my house burns down, I can copy my entire collection in a few hours (for the cost of a $200 portable hard drive).
And, finally, unlike with a vinyl album, if I DO hear a tick or pop, and it turns out to be due to a minor dropout, or a glitch with my current DAC... I can confirm that the file is still perfect. That way, instead of wondering, I KNOW that it won't be there the next time I play it. (Or, if it is, once I replace that DAC, it will be perfect again.)
That was exactly my experience. I though vinyl albums sounded fine, except that the surface noise and ticks and pops always annoyed me. And, unlike some people, I always viewed the ritual of carefully extracting the album from the sleeve, cleaning it, and gently placing it on the turntable, to be more annoying than pleasing. And setting up, adjusting, tweaking, and otherwise fiddling with the turntable was simply a chore.
To me, CDs simply represented the end of everything that annoyed me about vinyl. And, in many cases (but not always), they actually sounded better.
Do some CDs sound awful, and especially many of the early ones? Absolutely. However, many vinyl lovers seem to forget that there were also plenty of vinyl albums that sounded lousy as well.
And, unlike vinyl albums, and barring rare problems, CDs SOUND THE SAME FOREVER.
They don't wear out. They don't mysteriously acquire ticks and pops. And you don't find that the tiny speck of dust you missed when putting them away has made your favorite song unlistenable the next time you try to play it. (And, if you're worried about that, you can make a backup of a CD.)
What Keith said.... I would only echo the longevity thing, that you can sit down 20 years after the fact and hear a disc sound as pure as it did in 1988 (or whatever). Bill |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 30, 2018 12:55:36 GMT -5
So I have no doubt that Vinyl sounds different from the same Stereo Master on a CD. If for no other reason than the Vinyl has to have the RIAA Equalization applied to the Stereo Master. But maybe even more importantly, no matter how small, light, and delicate a cartridge needle is, it's still got mass and that's going to affect Frequency Response — especially in the High Frequencies. My guess is that we could come up with a Digital Filter which replicates this distortion and put it on a DAC and everyone would be talking about how "sweet" that playback sounded with the rolled off High Frequencies. You could probably follow that with another Digital Filter to emulate the distortion caused by Tube Amplifiers for those who really wanted Old School Sound ... Casey |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 30, 2018 13:17:31 GMT -5
So I have no doubt that Vinyl sounds different from the same Stereo Master on a CD. If for no other reason than the Vinyl has to have the RIAA Equalization applied to the Stereo Master. But maybe even more importantly, no matter how small, light, and delicate a cartridge needle is, it's still got mass and that's going to affect Frequency Response — especially in the High Frequencies. My guess is that we could come up with a Digital Filter which replicates this distortion and put it on a DAC and everyone would be talking about how "sweet" that playback sounded with the rolled off High Frequencies. You could probably follow that with another Digital Filter to emulate the distortion caused by Tube Amplifiers for those who really wanted Old School Sound ... Casey You are talking about a vinyl rip |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 30, 2018 13:27:05 GMT -5
By "Vinyl RIP" I presume that you're talking about doing an Analog-to-Digital Conversion (ADC) on the output of the Phono Preamplifier output[1]? I suppose one could take a Digital Stereo Master with the standard CD Redbook Dynamic Range (~107dB), do the Dynamic Range Compression for Vinyl (~78dB), then the RIAA Equalization, play that back on a Turntable, and through a Phono Preamplifier[1], a ADC, and finally compare that with the original Stereo Master to characterize the kinds of changes that were made in that process ... Casey [1] Note that the Phono Preamplifier has two fundamental jobs: 1. Boost the very small Moving Coil/Magnet Cartridge signals into standard ranges, and 2. do the RIAA Equalization. |
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Post by brubacca on Nov 30, 2018 13:32:15 GMT -5
My experience is that I have a few albums that just "sound" better on the TT.
Van Morrison Moondance being one of them. I just enjoy it more on vinyl.
Jack Johnson In Between Dreams is another one.
I don't think blanket statements work on this one.
There could be many reasons for this which I just don't care to figure out.
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Post by knucklehead on Nov 30, 2018 13:47:37 GMT -5
In a good recording vinyl can easily offer a lifelike reproduction of the recording space...Something that a Squared off digital signal can't reproduce but digital is getting much better. Well, since you can't hear those individual 'squared off' digital signals it shouldn't bother you, right? Sort of like watching an old movie still on film, where the frame rate is 24 frames per second. All those stills help to create the illusion of movement. CDs are no different. You can't hear the 'squared off' digital signals individually, way too many of them to hear one squared off pip. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 30, 2018 14:52:28 GMT -5
I'm gradually working my way through my vinyl collection, one LP at a time, seeking out the digital version that sounds as good to me (or preferably even better). Some examples;
The SACD multi channel version of DOSM sounds better than any vinyl copy I have heard (mine or any other) including the quadraphonic version.
On the hybrid disc of Bros in Arms the stereo track sounds better than the vinyl version. (I think it also sounds better than the multi track version).
The Hotel California SACD multi channel is much better sounding than my vinyl version (which is the best version I could find).
Similarly Rumours, the SACD multi channel version is awesome.
Machine Head, the SACD multi channel version is streets better sounding than my vinyl version (but it's been to a few parties in its day).
But there are exceptions;
I haven't found a digital version of any Sam Cooke album that sounds betters then the vinyl.
Similarly Billy Joel, still searching for a version of any album that sounds better than the vinyl.
Doobie Bros, the vinyl version of Takin' it to the Streets is still the best that I have heard.
After listening to many different versions of albums, digital and analogue, I long ago reached the conclusion that what I hear has far more to do with the mastering than what media I happen to be playing it from. Some mixes are just better, better engineered, from better masters, and they would sound better no matter what media they are on.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by mazurkr on Dec 3, 2018 0:28:13 GMT -5
So I have no doubt that Vinyl sounds different from the same Stereo Master on a CD. If for no other reason than the Vinyl has to have the RIAA Equalization applied to the Stereo Master. But maybe even more importantly, no matter how small, light, and delicate a cartridge needle is, it's still got mass and that's going to affect Frequency Response — especially in the High Frequencies. My guess is that we could come up with a Digital Filter which replicates this distortion and put it on a DAC and everyone would be talking about how "sweet" that playback sounded with the rolled off High Frequencies. You could probably follow that with another Digital Filter to emulate the distortion caused by Tube Amplifiers for those who really wanted Old School Sound ... Casey Last patch for Sony's wm1z/a added a "vinyl processor" setting that is meant to, and i quote, "Recreate the warm, rich playback of a record on a turntable". sounds pretty good, actually, on certain songs |
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Post by highfihoney2 on Dec 3, 2018 2:12:22 GMT -5
I seriously don't want to argue the finer points of vinyl playback but for my ears in my systems the overall enjoyability of the music depends on the recording format ,by that I'm referring to the quality of the master tape used to make an LP or CD , I've got early CDs that sound horrific where the vinyl version is fantastic and vice versa ,alot of my enjoyment with listening is from hands on the Lp,I enjoy taking the LP out ,cleaning it ,adjusting my platter speed and just enjoying watching the LP spin ,if people are looking to " clean up " their vinyl playback look into 1970s DBX units ,there's way too many models for me to list but ebay is usually full of different models to chose from pretty cheap .
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Post by geeqner on Dec 3, 2018 9:42:02 GMT -5
Vinyl sounding "better than the BEST Digital recording technologies(sic)" = I think NOT! However, when: - "done right" = Well Engineered recording / mixing / mastered
- Well-maintained = Owner understands proper care of media and player (Handling records BY EDGES, Soft Sleeves, Cleaning Records & cleaning Stylus, etc.)
- Played back on GOOD Equipment = I'm NOT saying that you need to spend 10-Grand on a Turntable / Cartridge / Tonearm, but to ge the "full effect" you DO need Quality Equipment. Such as anything with a GOOD Phono stage that "plays nice" with your chosen cartridge (whereas differences in CD players from all but the "cheapos" are harder to discriminate)
It CAN sound AWFULLY DARNED GOOD! Plus I also agree with the fun / nostalgia of the process and Album Art that one does not get with On-Line files (and CDs are so much SMALLER in this respect) When you get right down to it - I STILL find the level of sound quality that could be achieved by mechanically encoding Audio signals into a "scratch on a chunk-O-plastic" to be AMAZING!Those who "Poo-Poo" Vinyl have never heard a good album "spun-up" on a carefully selected and matched rig (I'm not saying that it's BETTER than CD or High-Res Digital - but when done properly, it would be hard to tell the difference in a normal / typical listening environment.) As for the $30K Turntable / $10K Tonearm / $5K Cartridge people - I cannot help but wonder if they're seeking a level of sound that is "not there to begin with": (I wonder what the Frequency Response, Dynamic Range, and Signal-to-Noise Ratio was / is of the "state-of-the-art" equipment that was used to Master and Cut the Master Disks and what degree of distortion / degradation was introduced when the Master was cast and used to make the "daughter Negatives" that were used in the pressing process used to make Vinyl albums.?) I also agree that CDs and Digital Files are / can be so much less of a "pain" to deal with (but the pain, in small doses, can be fun - look at the Tatoo craze...) |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 3, 2018 9:54:50 GMT -5
How good does vinyl sound? About as good as you remember it sounding...
If your earlier vinyl experience was with scratched 45s, then that's what you've learned to expect.
If your experience was with mid to high quality playback gear, then that's what you've learned to expect.
Will your 2018 vinyl experience be all that different from your previous one? Maybe, but probably not.
The biggest difference is that you can't walk down to the local record store and buy a new album for the price of a Big Mac. Selection is down, prices are up (WAY up). Yes, you might get lucky and find some old geezer who croaked and whose spouse / kids are selling a huge lot of pristine vinyl for "haul-it-away" prices, but you can bet that there's a BUNCH of others trying to buy the same stash.
If the sound of vinyl is a 5 (on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being live music), then 1980s digital started out at a 2. But digital has improved (a LOT), and in 2018, digital, at its best, is now a 7. But vinyl, at its best, is not a bit better. Different? yes. Better? no.
This is not to say that anyone who prefers vinyl is "wrong" in any way - just that it takes more money and effort to coax a 7-quality sound out of vinyl than it does with digital. Your money, your choice.
I've lots of friends who love both. And I enjoy hearing their vinyl when I visit. But for me, it isn't worth the time, money, and effort. YMMV
Cordially - Boom
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Post by valgolfs on Dec 3, 2018 12:55:30 GMT -5
I just added a phono preamp with DSP to my rig and it sounds great, quite a bit better than what I had. Yes phono and DSP in the same sentence. It has enough gain for any cartridge and a dozen things to tweek to your hearts content if you want. Parks Audio Puffin at $399 increased the joy for vinyl in my rig by a bunch.
Seems like blasphemy, but I highly recommend it for someone looking for a phono preamp in this price range.
Merry Christmas to me.
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