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Post by vcautokid on Dec 14, 2018 4:46:18 GMT -5
Yes they can. Design voicing isolation and much much more. I had a few receivers that I really enjoyed. A Harman Kardon's 670i with a gutsy sound and outstanding tuner. My Pioneer Elite that weighs more than my car was delightful. There is so allot you can really do to make a receiver do well.
Engineering and costs are usually where it gets dicey. I love separate components sure but allot of the systems I put together for others involved a receiver. Allot are still being enjoyed to this day.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 14, 2018 5:23:32 GMT -5
Never heard one that sounds as good as the best separates I've heard... Haven't heard a receiver yet that could equal good separates, especially separates that have synergy with each other and the rest of the gear... I think you guys are right, and have hit the core of the question - separates, at their best, are still better than the best receivers and integrateds that I've heard too. But the best receivers and integrated amps (at the consumer price range of $10K or less) can compete with average separates in the same price range. Since I have no experience with integrated amps or receivers in the lofty price ranges (or with separates up there), I can't comment on the comparative value on those. But I think that I'd make the statement comfortably that for the same price point, receivers and (particularly) integrated amplifiers are generally competitive with separates. One might find a separates combo that has exceptional synergy that would win, but you might also find it the other way around. And above a certain price point ($1,500 to 2,000?) the "they use cheap parts to control prices" argument against integrated amps and receivers becomes invalid. The issue of manufacturer size also comes into consideration. At a given price point, a large company (Yamaha, for example) has far greater economy of scale than does somebody building one-offs in their garage. Yamaha can afford to use what would normally be prohibitively costly components because they get the components far more cheaply in the quantities that Yamaha orders. So the manufacturing cost of a receiver or integrated amp with film capacitors is far less for Yamaha than it would be for a smaller company. Yamaha can afford to pass on some of that price-savings to make their receivers competitive and to sell the receivers in (MUCH) larger quantities. |
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Post by davidl81 on Dec 14, 2018 9:43:00 GMT -5
I went from a Marantz SR7009 (AVR) to the AV8802A (Pre/Pro) and the difference is sound quality was incredible. This is not quite fair as the 8000 series is a step up form the 7000 series, but it is the best comparison that I have. With a dedicated pre/pro you will (almost always) get XLR out puts in addition to RCA outputs. Theoretically the balanced XLR outputs should have less noise than the RCA outputs. Also since you don't have the amplifier section in a pre-pro you should also get a (ever so) slightly cleaner signal. Now in the real world can you hear the differences in either one of these two, that's pretty hard to say.
For the most part though a dedicated pre/pro will tend to have better DAC's than a similarly priced AVR, although this is a generalization.
Cost wise I don't think you really save any money doing separates versus an AVR even if you back out the external amplifier cost. Separates sell in far fewer quantities and they tend to be priced at or above similarly specked AVR's.
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 14, 2018 10:02:35 GMT -5
But I think that I'd make the statement comfortably that for the same price point, receivers and (particularly) integrated amplifiers are generally competitive with separates. For easy to drive speakers, or lower end speakers that aren't as revealing, I'd agree. For difficult and/or very revealing speakers, I would disagree, although "generally competitive" is a pretty broad and unclear statement vs. the "as good as" statement made by the OP. I'm referring to "as good as" so as not to confuse the issue. |
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Post by dragonV on Dec 14, 2018 10:54:47 GMT -5
My guess is most people here will tell you no. I can say that when I added my Emotiva amps to my Denon receiver, I heard ZERO difference between using Emotiva power and the Denon internal amps. Here's what I find amusing. Folks here and at Emotiva will basically say that separates are always better. Yet when they came out with the Fusion receiver, you didn't hear that as part of the pitch. I'll bet money that when Emotiva does release that new receiver (I forget the name now, the one that mimics the XMC-2 but with amps inside), they most certainly sell it as sounding just as good as separates. Still it must have been worth trying the Emotiva amps v your Denon internal ones? Did you feel at the time that maybe the Denon internal amps could be bettered??? Just confirming did you ever try the Denon with internal amps v Emotiva amps/separate prepro, or was it only with the Denon acting as the prepro? If so would that really only be comparing Denon internal amps v Emotiva amps, not receiver v separates? Did you return the Emotiva amps during the 30 day period, or sell used? Either way the return shipping cost (or small loss selling used) is worth the audition, and a small price in this great hobby. I had more luck. The separates were noticeably better in my system, than the Pioneer receiver they replaced. Though I guess there is far too many combinations of amps/prepro/receivers/etc etc out there for any of us to answer the original question with real accuracy, experience and educated(or not) opinion is fun though as always....  |
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 14, 2018 11:18:58 GMT -5
Short answer, given the best engineering possible on all components - no!
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Post by davidl81 on Dec 14, 2018 12:12:45 GMT -5
My guess is most people here will tell you no. I can say that when I added my Emotiva amps to my Denon receiver, I heard ZERO difference between using Emotiva power and the Denon internal amps. Here's what I find amusing. Folks here and at Emotiva will basically say that separates are always better. Yet when they came out with the Fusion receiver, you didn't hear that as part of the pitch. I'll bet money that when Emotiva does release that new receiver (I forget the name now, the one that mimics the XMC-2 but with amps inside), they most certainly sell it as sounding just as good as separates. The differences between external amps and AVR amps will be magnified based on the speakers you are running. I would imagine you would be very hard pressed to hear a difference in your Def-Tech speakers between the XPA-2 and the internal Denon amp since your speakers have a powered subwoofer thus negating the need for as much power just for the mid-range and highs. If I tried to run my Mirage OMD-28's just in stereo with an internal amp versus my DR-2 I would be able to hear a difference at moderate to high volumes levels. The point is that everyone's setup is different and it's hard to make blanket statements like XYZ is always better than ABC. One of my co-workers has a theather room with in-wall speakers/subs in an Atmos 7.4.2 setup all powered (except sub) from a Denon AVR, and at moderate volume levels it sounds just as good I my system using a $3000 pre/pro and another $3000 worth of amps. My system may be able to get to a louder dB level, but in reality no one really ever watches a movie that loud anyway. |
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Post by ottaone on Dec 14, 2018 12:43:52 GMT -5
I wouldn't trust a low- or medium-end AVR for a karaoke night. With Emo amps, I'm no longer worried about my speakers over ear-splitting renditions of Céline Dion songs.:-)
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 14, 2018 18:27:31 GMT -5
But I think that I'd make the statement comfortably that for the same price point, receivers and (particularly) integrated amplifiers are generally competitive with separates. One might find a separates combo that has exceptional synergy that would win, but you might also find it the other way around. The equality at the "the same price point" maybe valid for the first time a decision is made whether to buy an AVR or a processor plus a power amp/s. But every time thereafter the equality is not there, because we can swap out the processor and keep the power amp/s. We can do that many times, because quality power amps last a long time, decades even. An example, in my case I bought a UMC-1 and an XPA-5 that cost in total around what my previous AVR's cost. But then I bought a UMC-200 (and kept the XPA-5) and spent much less than I would have on what an equivalent AVR would have cost, like 60% less. More recently I have upgraded to an XMC-1, again for around what the equivalent AVR would have cost, but I still have the same XPA-5. So I saved 60% the first time and then (notionally) used that saving the second time to upgrade the sound quality. With a separates versus AVR comparison it is worthwhile keeping in mind that processors and AVR's have a limited life technically. So maybe the cost for equivalents the first time around is the same, but the second and subsequent times with separates we can either save money or move up the quality ladder. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 15, 2018 10:47:18 GMT -5
I wouldn't trust a low- or medium-end AVR for a karaoke night. With Emo amps, I'm no longer worried about my speakers over ear-splitting renditions of Céline Dion songs.:-) Well right now I wouldn't trust an RMC-1 for 5 minutes. Maybe not even that long because it will probably lock up just turning it on. Just saying. |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 15, 2018 10:51:37 GMT -5
My guess is most people here will tell you no. I can say that when I added my Emotiva amps to my Denon receiver, I heard ZERO difference between using Emotiva power and the Denon internal amps. Here's what I find amusing. Folks here and at Emotiva will basically say that separates are always better. Yet when they came out with the Fusion receiver, you didn't hear that as part of the pitch. I'll bet money that when Emotiva does release that new receiver (I forget the name now, the one that mimics the XMC-2 but with amps inside), they most certainly sell it as sounding just as good as separates. Still it must have been worth trying the Emotiva amps v your Denon internal ones? Did you feel at the time that maybe the Denon internal amps could be bettered??? Just confirming did you ever try the Denon with internal amps v Emotiva amps/separate prepro, or was it only with the Denon acting as the prepro? If so would that really only be comparing Denon internal amps v Emotiva amps, not receiver v separates? Did you return the Emotiva amps during the 30 day period, or sell used? Either way the return shipping cost (or small loss selling used) is worth the audition, and a small price in this great hobby. I had more luck. The separates were noticeably better in my system, than the Pioneer receiver they replaced. Though I guess there is far too many combinations of amps/prepro/receivers/etc etc out there for any of us to answer the original question with real accuracy, experience and educated(or not) opinion is fun though as always.... Denon as a prepro and Emotiva amps only. I kept the Emotiva amps for a few reasons. I figured overall they were built like tanks and therefore better overall. When I wanted to make the move to a separate processor I would be set. More power. And bragging rights of course. 😜 |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 15, 2018 10:52:44 GMT -5
My guess is most people here will tell you no. I can say that when I added my Emotiva amps to my Denon receiver, I heard ZERO difference between using Emotiva power and the Denon internal amps. Here's what I find amusing. Folks here and at Emotiva will basically say that separates are always better. Yet when they came out with the Fusion receiver, you didn't hear that as part of the pitch. I'll bet money that when Emotiva does release that new receiver (I forget the name now, the one that mimics the XMC-2 but with amps inside), they most certainly sell it as sounding just as good as separates. The differences between external amps and AVR amps will be magnified based on the speakers you are running. I would imagine you would be very hard pressed to hear a difference in your Def-Tech speakers between the XPA-2 and the internal Denon amp since your speakers have a powered subwoofer thus negating the need for as much power just for the mid-range and highs. If I tried to run my Mirage OMD-28's just in stereo with an internal amp versus my DR-2 I would be able to hear a difference at moderate to high volumes levels. The point is that everyone's setup is different and it's hard to make blanket statements like XYZ is always better than ABC. One of my co-workers has a theather room with in-wall speakers/subs in an Atmos 7.4.2 setup all powered (except sub) from a Denon AVR, and at moderate volume levels it sounds just as good I my system using a $3000 pre/pro and another $3000 worth of amps. My system may be able to get to a louder dB level, but in reality no one really ever watches a movie that loud anyway. +1. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 14:52:36 GMT -5
My slap-in-the-face moment came decades ago when I switch from receivers to separates in 2 ch. I worked in a repair-sales shop & got access to lots of used but fairly new equipment. Tried S.A.E. Audio Research & Phase Liner (150w area) (some were dinner plate heaters) blew me away. The NAD 3020 budget integrated amp was sweet, along with a Pioneer integrated SA?  I had. Price point wise, some receivers today sound really good. My Denon AVR-5700 (2000 model) was a great sounding receiver for stereo (better that UMC-200 & XMC) to my Monitor Audio's. The combined components were in synergy along with Burr-Brown DACs, better that some later models that did not match it's sound quality in the AVR-5xxx line. The Speakers driven can be the deciding factor as Boom stated. Some are dropping into the 3 & 2 ohm area and most Receivers ain't gonna cut it. It's the power supply that makes the difference. I repeat, it's the power supply, stupid. lol A receiver has size limitations and something needs to be sacrificed and it's usually the power supply- even with all the new high tech designs today. All the other "stuff" in a receiver does add noise, but are most people going to hear it or care? Isolation has improved so much. I did connect the XPA to Denon's pre-out and could not tell a difference in stereo. It surprised me. A power amp is forever- a channel goes out, you get it fixed. If a channel goes out in a receiver you fix it yourself or trash it. I believe DACs are the secret to today's sound. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 17, 2018 15:30:31 GMT -5
The combined components were in synergy along with Burr-Brown DACs I like Burr Brown DAC's too Cheers Gary |
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I had.