|
Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 4, 2020 22:47:27 GMT -5
So I've been meaning to post on the AVS Thread, but I'll ask here instead: What does the limitation of Dirac operating at 48kHz mean as far as High-Resolution Music? Say a 96kHz/24bit track?
Casey
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,498
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jan 4, 2020 22:54:44 GMT -5
It sounds like Dirac on the HTP-1 is limited to a sampling rate of 48k I wonder if the RMCs will have the same limitation... I'm still really happy with the sound quality of the RMC, but from the early adopter reports on AVS it sounds like the HTP-1 developers are really doing a nice job on the software side... I really like what I see of the webUI and the fast switching/lack of HDMI drop out issues sounds very appealing. It will be interesting to see how the reports look after more testing and if anyone will do a side by side comparison. Hypothetically, let’s say the HTP-1 was offered with Dirac @48k and Dirac @96k sampling rates, do you think you could hear the difference in a blind testing?
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,498
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jan 4, 2020 23:10:57 GMT -5
So I've been meaning to post on the AVS Thread, but I'll ask here instead: What does the limitation of Dirac operating at 48kHz mean as far as High-Resolution Music? Say a 96kHz/24bit track? Casey I'd be willing to bet that I wouldn't hear much if any difference between the two sampling rates, and I'd bet a large percentage of us audio enthusiasts wouldn't either. I have no tests, evidence or proof of my guess, so take my post as an unsubstantiated opinion. I would however like for someone to prove me wrong.
|
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 859
|
Post by richb on Jan 5, 2020 0:13:27 GMT -5
So I've been meaning to post on the AVS Thread, but I'll ask here instead: What does the limitation of Dirac operating at 48kHz mean as far as High-Resolution Music? Say a 96kHz/24bit track? Casey I'd be willing to bet that I wouldn't hear much if any difference between the two sampling rates, and I'd bet a large percentage of us audio enthusiasts wouldn't either. I have no tests, evidence or proof of my guess, so take my post as an unsubstantiated opinion. I would however like for someone to prove me wrong. I think there may be a benefit in having headroom in real-time processing. I'd like a processor that is transparent with and without DSP. - Rich
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 5, 2020 0:39:02 GMT -5
Yes, okay, but what does it mean for Dirac to be processed at 48kHz, 96kHz, etc.? What exactly is happening at those processing rates? Is Dirac chopping time up into 48kHz pieces and applying some form of Digital Filtering of Digital Audio Data? Volume Control? What? If it's Digital Filtering of Digital Audio Data, then 48kHz will have interesting aliasing effects on Digital Audio Data which is at Sampling Rates other than 48kHz.
Casey
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Jan 5, 2020 0:54:29 GMT -5
So I've been meaning to post on the AVS Thread, but I'll ask here instead: What does the limitation of Dirac operating at 48kHz mean as far as High-Resolution Music? Say a 96kHz/24bit track? Casey It is obviously a limitation if you play music files with sample rates above 24/48 or if you use software like Audirvana and up sample above 24/48. Almost all BluRay movie soundtracks have a 24/48 soundtrack so the base Dirac sample rate would have no effect for them. Amazon Music HD has Flac files above 24/48 and the same is true of Tidal’s MQA files. Given all that, I think a 24/192 sample rate is a big deal if you own high res music files above 24/48. For me the higher sample rate promised for Dirac in Emotiva’s new processors was a major factor in upgrading from my XMC-1.
|
|
Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,348
|
Post by Lsc on Jan 5, 2020 7:08:02 GMT -5
Yes, from tech day.. ETA estimated time of arrival.. No promise, just that they plan to have it ready Q1. Well, I was the one who published the notes, and here's exactly what they said: There is nothing that said they "plan" to have it ready in the notes or what Dan said. This quote is from Dan's public comments as we enjoyed lunch. I don't point that out to disrespect you, so don't take it as that. I'm merely wanting to make sure my notes are not misinterpreted. Mark (PS - I am not an Emotiva employeee...just a lounge member who takes detailed notes and publishes them after any events I'm at...) I thought you may have said that Dirac works for 2 channel but not 16? If so were you able to hear the 2 channel room correction using Dirac on tech day?
|
|
|
Post by cwt on Jan 5, 2020 7:17:41 GMT -5
It sounds like Dirac on the HTP-1 is limited to a sampling rate of 48k I wonder if the RMCs will have the same limitation... I'm still really happy with the sound quality of the RMC, but from the early adopter reports on AVS it sounds like the HTP-1 developers are really doing a nice job on the software side... The RMC'S have been stated to [eventually] process Dirac at 24/96 which speaks to the dsp horsepower they have ; the HTP1's Dirac just like audyssey implementations out there runs at a 48khz sampling rate . That said most movies are either 16/48 or 24/48[after a certain date] so its a moot point . As for hi rez downloads it matters more I would speculate for how the music is mixed and editing care taken than something that may well have been upsampled [depending on the source of course ] The positive to come from all this ; now the HTP1 is getting some positive feedback will be to light a fire under Emo as mentioned . If some proud owner of a HTP1 lends one to Audio Science Review the proverbial may hit the fan
|
|
|
Post by wilburthegoose on Jan 5, 2020 8:19:00 GMT -5
My take is that the Audio Science Review guy is a quack. Knows just enough to be dangerous.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
|
|
|
Post by cwt on Jan 5, 2020 12:07:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by tom9933 on Jan 5, 2020 12:13:59 GMT -5
As for the can you hear the difference I'm not sure, but I agree with the point about it showing the potential limits of the hardware. As I'm sure most RMC owners are doing I've been trying to compare as much as I can now so that I can make the big decision once Emo turns on Dirac and the clock starts. The Arcam/JBL platform seems to have teething issues at this point so my guess is that the decision will be between keeping the RMC1 or sending it back and replacing it with a HTP-1. Here are the pros/cons I see for each unit at this point. HTP-1: pros - modern webUI and update mechanism, fast booting, fast HDMI switching and based on initial reports "it just works" compatibility, built in Roon endpoint, color front display, Aura3D and IMAX support cons - dirac limited to 48k (is this a can you hear issue?), no balanced input (external DAC/Phono pre etc) unknowns - sound quality, remote control usability, HDMI 2.1 RMC-1: pros - excellent sound quality, room for expansion, balanced input cons - slow boot up, slow HDMI switching, manual USB upgrade process, failed upgrades require sending the unit back, audio drop out issues, clunky non back lit remote control unknowns - how dirac will work, what expansion cards what/when/cost, HDMI 2.1
Overall it seems like the emotiva hardware is top rate but it seems like the software is the weak point. On the HTP it seems like the hardware is a lower grade than the RMC (maybe more like my Denon 8500), but still very nice and hopefully a step up from the Denon. Ironically my Denon is back in the theater at the moment and I'm finding I really like the "it just works" aspect although I can easily hear the difference... Another sound quality difference that I wonder is the output type discussion, considering I have emo amps it seems like that may be another pro, but once again can you really hear that difference...
BTW I also find it ironic that we are talking about a direct competitor on the Emotiva forum....
|
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 859
|
Post by richb on Jan 5, 2020 13:08:43 GMT -5
As for the can you hear the difference I'm not sure, but I agree with the point about it showing the potential limits of the hardware. As I'm sure most RMC owners are doing I've been trying to compare as much as I can now so that I can make the big decision once Emo turns on Dirac and the clock starts. The Arcam/JBL platform seems to have teething issues at this point so my guess is that the decision will be between keeping the RMC1 or sending it back and replacing it with a HTP-1. Here are the pros/cons I see for each unit at this point. HTP-1: pros - modern webUI and update mechanism, fast booting, fast HDMI switching and based on initial reports "it just works" compatibility, built in Roon endpoint, color front display, Aura3D and IMAX support cons - dirac limited to 48k (is this a can you hear issue?), no balanced input (external DAC/Phono pre etc) unknowns - sound quality, remote control usability, HDMI 2.1 RMC-1: pros - excellent sound quality, room for expansion, balanced input cons - slow boot up, slow HDMI switching, manual USB upgrade process, failed upgrades require sending the unit back, audio drop out issues, clunky non back lit remote control unknowns - how dirac will work, what expansion cards what/when/cost, HDMI 2.1 Overall it seems like the emotiva hardware is top rate but it seems like the software is the weak point. On the HTP it seems like the hardware is a lower grade than the RMC (maybe more like my Denon 8500), but still very nice and hopefully a step up from the Denon. Ironically my Denon is back in the theater at the moment and I'm finding I really like the "it just works" aspect although I can easily hear the difference... Another sound quality difference that I wonder is the output type discussion, considering I have emo amps it seems like that may be another pro, but once again can you really hear that difference... BTW I also find it ironic that we are talking about a direct competitor on the Emotiva forum.... Neither product has published performance measurements and specifications. The HTP-1 is reported to switch inputs in approximately 3 seconds by less than a handful of users. The RMC-1 switches in approximately 3 seconds with my LG C9 (HDMI 2.1'ish chipset). Until, there are more data points with complex configurations, this is still conjecture. The HTP-1 is reported to boot in 1 minute which seems in the same ball-park as the RMC-1. This is not surprising since the XMC-1 was MDS based as well. I agree that Emotiva software is lagging the hardware. I think they know that. - Rich
|
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 859
|
Post by richb on Jan 5, 2020 13:21:17 GMT -5
My take is that the Audio Science Review guy is a quack. Knows just enough to be dangerous. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.... Criticism is fine but just name calling, creates doubt about the expressed opinion. Audio Science Review is taking measurements which are objective data points, something we do not find other sites pontificating over performance. Emotiva may provide an RMC-1 for measurement, something that would be great. Product issues were discovered with the AV8805 that may or may not be audible but that is up to the reader to decide. I am sure owners were not appreciative, so it goes. I believe the opinion part of the site is that products that cost >$4K should be able to perform as well or better than 2 channel DACs costing $400 or less. It may not be fair to compare a 16-channel and 2-channel product that is up to the reader to decide. Marketing for these products taught their excellence that should be backed up by objective measurement data. In the 13 to 16-channel market (even 5 figure + products), there are little or no specifications, including output voltage for amp gain matching. - Rich
|
|
|
Post by petew on Jan 5, 2020 13:47:33 GMT -5
I think the simpler architecture of the HTP-1 is a big advantage for stability. What MP left out vs. Emotiva... No OSD (and no complex OSD overlay) - replaced with superior web based setup No DSD decode - used by few people, but seems to be part of the problem with EMO switching speeds No analog bypass - affects a small number of users No tuner (woo hoo) Limited to 48k (We'll see if Emotiva can pull off higher sample rates. I am doubtful).
The few Emotiva advantages (from my personal standpoint) Nicer aesthetics (HTP-1 is butt ugly!) Proven track record for excellent sound on all EMO products (ATI ain't no slouch either, though) Lower price XMC-2, especially with UFL
I think Emotiva made some poor choices with the product development. Clinging on to the XMC-1 software base. That whole lipstick on a pig thing. Should have included a modern update process - IP vs. sneakernet Taking the whole project in-house. They should have stuck it out with MDS. Developing a product that complex is a daunting task. They knew the new HDMI board was not working well in the XMC-1 - that should have been a warning sign to consider something different with the RMC. Insisting on OSD with full overlay. HDMI is a *bleep* even without adding that complication. Hanging on to XMC-1 legacy hardware problems (trigger outputs not robust, USB update) Expensive (?) remote control. Hard to use by feel. OLED displays are unique and blue, but low resolution. Color touchscreen is superior. Encoder knob on RMC-x is probably an unnecessary expense.
If Emotiva does not get Dirac running soon and get the platform stable and mostly bug free, they are in a world of hurt.
If they don't start releasing expansion modules for the RMC-1, who is going to have confidence that they will ever get them done, or that they will do something useful with the limitations of the standard Dolby and DTS upmixers. Anyone who can use more than sixteen channels should probably go to one of the proven (and expensive) products that are already out there. I have doubts that Emotiva can write their own upmixer since they can't even get the basics right after more than a year.
I'm still rooting for the underdog, but I become more doubtful every day. I sincerely hope this debacle does not sink them.
|
|
|
Post by tom9933 on Jan 5, 2020 14:04:00 GMT -5
Neither product has published performance measurements and specifications. The HTP-1 is reported to switch inputs in approximately 3 seconds by less than a handful of users. The RMC-1 switches in approximately 3 seconds with my LG C7 (HDMI 2.1'ish chipset). Until, there are more data points with complex configurations, this is still conjecture. The HTP-1 is reported to boot in 1 minute which seems in the same ball-park as the RMC-1. This is not surprising since the XMC-1 was MDS based as well. I agree that Emotiva software is lagging the hardware. I think they know that. - Rich Totally agree, I guess I need to measure things with the RMC once its back, but by comparison to the Denon it feels much slower...
|
|
richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 859
|
Post by richb on Jan 5, 2020 14:12:58 GMT -5
Neither product has published performance measurements and specifications. The HTP-1 is reported to switch inputs in approximately 3 seconds by less than a handful of users. The RMC-1 switches in approximately 3 seconds with my LG C7 (HDMI 2.1'ish chipset). Until, there are more data points with complex configurations, this is still conjecture. The HTP-1 is reported to boot in 1 minute which seems in the same ball-park as the RMC-1. This is not surprising since the XMC-1 was MDS based as well. I agree that Emotiva software is lagging the hardware. I think they know that. - Rich Totally agree, I guess I need to measure things with the RMC once its back, but by comparison to the Denon it feels much slower... I correct my earlier post, input switching was closer 8 seconds on my C7 and more that twice as fast when I upgrade to the C9. There are some reports that the number and type of devices connected can matter. The Oppo 205 had issues with some Sony gear because even when powered off it was causing HDMI handshakes. Emotiva has to live with HDMI because they chose this business but they are correct, it isn't pretty. Hopefully, we will see DSD identification improvements and an option to disable DSD per input to improve performance and reliability, since this is a small segment and input dependent. - Rich
|
|
|
Post by tom9933 on Jan 5, 2020 14:28:08 GMT -5
I correct my earlier post, input switching was closer 8 seconds on my C7 and more that twice as fast when I upgrade to the C9. There are some reports that the number and type of devices connected can matter. The Oppo 205 had issues with some Sony gear because even when powered off it was causing HDMI handshakes. Emotiva has to live with HDMI because they chose this business but they are correct, it isn't pretty. Hopefully, we will see DSD identification improvements and an option to disable DSD per input to improve performance and reliability, since this is a small segment and input dependent. - Rich That makes some sense as I assume it takes time for the display to lock but its also interesting that the same manufacturer was faster with the newer model... With my JVC the Denon just feels faster both in the inital time for an image to appear and when switching between my two devices (Shield and DVR). The other nice thing about the Denon is that CEC works where as with the RMC I have to disable that...
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,760
|
Post by klinemj on Jan 5, 2020 16:38:22 GMT -5
Well, I was the one who published the notes, and here's exactly what they said: There is nothing that said they "plan" to have it ready in the notes or what Dan said. This quote is from Dan's public comments as we enjoyed lunch. I don't point that out to disrespect you, so don't take it as that. I'm merely wanting to make sure my notes are not misinterpreted. Mark (PS - I am not an Emotiva employeee...just a lounge member who takes detailed notes and publishes them after any events I'm at...) I thought you may have said that Dirac works for 2 channel but not 16? If so were you able to hear the 2 channel room correction using Dirac on tech day? They did say on Tech Day they had Dirac working for 2 channel, but that Dirac had not provided all the necessary files for more than that. They did not demo the 2 channel version...the 2 channel room featured a refurb XMC-1 as a demo of what kind of system that could be (and the old XMC-1 doesn't work with the new Dirac). The rooms with RMC-1's were doing multi-channel and setup demos. Mark
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 5, 2020 18:39:04 GMT -5
So, if Dirac operates at such a low resolution, is there an option on the RMC-1/RMC-1L/XMC-2 to not use it for Stereo? We have a ton of 96kHz/24bit and higher music assets ... including a stupid amount of DSD ...
Casey
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Jan 5, 2020 18:53:06 GMT -5
So, if Dirac operates at such a low resolution, is there an option on the RMC-1/RMC-1L/XMC-2 to not use it for Stereo? We have a ton of 96kHz/24bit and higher music assets ... including a stupid amount of DSD ... Casey Reference stereo
|
|