New York Time article on the loudness war

[siggie]

Worth a read.

They Really Don’t Make Music Like They Used To

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[26gary26]

Thanks for the reference to the article. It was very interesting.

[KeithL]

A quite thorough article.....

One thing I would stress somewhat more than they did is that radio listening, and especially listening on a car radio, especially favors less dynamic range and higher average level.

When you're tuning across radio stations, the loudest one is most likely to get your attention, especially if you're tuning rapidly - but this is most true when you're listening in a car, where you're distracted, and there is a lot of background noise.

Likewise, while a louder overall presentation often sounds better, at least in the short term, this is also even more true when there is a lot of background noise to overcome - like traffic noise and engine noise.

(So, perhaps, modern cars, which tend to be quieter and have better noise isolation than vintage cars, are on our side on this one.)

Feb 10, 2019 21:25:57 GMT -5 26gary26 said:

Thanks for the reference to the article. It was very interesting.

[Bonzo]

The only music that I think they SHOULD make 2 recordings of is Classical. But the compressed versions should only be distributed to radio stations. This way people could actually HEAR the music while driving in a car. As it is now, listening to classical music while driving is a huge hit ot miss. And I'd say most of it is a miss.

I hate the loudness stuff. Try listening to Adele's first album all the way through...its painful. She has such a great voice but the music is just squashed. Same goes for Greta Van Fleet's first album. Could be so much better. The whole thing just proves that most people are just completely ignorant and really don't care. Sad but true.

[Casey Leedom]

A friend of mine once had a car — a late 1990s T-Top Corvette if I remember right — which had Dynamic Range Compression on the Radio keyed to how fast the car was driving in order to push the Radio above Cabin Noise. Or it may even have had a microphone in the Cabin in order to do this. Actually a fairly useful feature since without it you'd be constantly adjusting the Radio Volume to accommodate for the Cabin Noise Floor yourself.

But other than that, Dynamic Range Compression is Pure Evil ... :-)

Casey

[Bonzo]

Feb 11, 2019 14:05:20 GMT -5 Casey Leedom said:

A friend of mine once had a car — a late 1990s T-Top Corvette if I remember right — which had Dynamic Range Compression on the Radio keyed to how fast the car was driving in order to push the Radio above Cabin Noise. Or it may even have had a microphone in the Cabin in order to do this. Actually a fairly useful feature since without it you'd be constantly adjusting the Radio Volume to accommodate for the Cabin Noise Floor yourself.

But other than that, Dynamic Range Compression is Pure Evil ... :-)

Casey

Many modern cars have speed variable volume. It works off the speed you are traveling. My 2004 Murano had 3 settings, low, medium and high.

[KeithL]

That's pretty cool....

Although, to be honest, my 2012 Nissan Versa is plenty quiet (as long as you aren't listening with the windows open)....

And most real luxury cars I've ridden in lately are quiet enough that it wouldn't really be necessary.

Sadly, I think it's just reached the point where people expect a lot of compression, so they don't notice it when it's there....

(Just as far too many people think what they hear on their $9 ear-buds is what music is supposed to sound like.)

Feb 11, 2019 14:14:37 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Feb 11, 2019 14:05:20 GMT -5 Casey Leedom said:

A friend of mine once had a car — a late 1990s T-Top Corvette if I remember right — which had Dynamic Range Compression on the Radio keyed to how fast the car was driving in order to push the Radio above Cabin Noise. Or it may even have had a microphone in the Cabin in order to do this. Actually a fairly useful feature since without it you'd be constantly adjusting the Radio Volume to accommodate for the Cabin Noise Floor yourself.

But other than that, Dynamic Range Compression is Pure Evil ... :-)

Casey

Many modern cars have speed variable volume. It works off the speed you are traveling. My 2004 Murano had 3 settings, low, medium and high.

[MusicHead]

If we define distortion simply as something at the output that was not at the input, then compression IS a form of distortion.

I DESPISE recordings with artificially squashed dynamic.

[Bonzo]

For many artists it seems like a complete catch 22. But it can be done properly and still be a winner.

I know its been 10+ years now, and I'm biased when it comes to Robert Plant, but his and Allison Krauss' album sold a crap load and won best album of the year. T-Bone Burnett KNOWS how to record, mix, and master. So much so that my wife will compliment a movie soundtrack half way through saying this sounds incredible. And when we watch the credits, its T-Bone. Its truly THAT noticable. The problem is, most normal people just don't care. They accept mediocrity. Idiots.

[KeithL]

I tend to agree - in broad principle - but I always put the dividing line at "what the artist, PRODUCER, AND MIXING ENGINEER intended".

With a lot of modern music there is no single "input".

Very few recordings these days are created by "putting a microphone or two in front of a performer or band and recording what they play".

Most modern music is multi-tracked.... which means that the individual musicians may have been playing at different times, or even in different places, and there may be lots of over-dubbing and re-dubbing.

Likewise, modern music often includes things like synthetic sounds, highly processed samples, and other special effects.

In many cases, I would have to include compression as "just one more thing that can be done to sound that sometimes sounds bad to me".

I tend to draw the line at the master - or at the CD.

If the producer, or the engineer, or even the artist, specified compression AS PART OF THEIR ARTISTIC VISION OF THE PRODUCT, then it isn't distortion.

Even deliberate clipping doesn't count as distortion IF IT WAS DONE DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY TO PRODUCE A CERTAIN ARTISTIC EFFECT.

As far as I'm concerned, anything of that sort is simply a disagreement between myself and the artist or producer...

I have a perfectly clean and undistorted copy of exactly what they wanted me to have.... and I simply don't like their style.

Have you ever looked at a Van Gogh painting?

They don't look anything like "the real thing".

And, personally, I don't like them in the least.

However, since they are also clearly what the artist intended, they aren't distorted.... I just plain don't like the artist.

(It would be different if Van Gogh painted accurate naturalistic paintings and we were talking about bad reproductions.)

So, to me, the unfortunate thing is some combination of:

1) a lot of people really LIKE highly compressed sound (or it catches their attention in certain situations)

2) the artists and producers BELIEVE that to be the case

Unfortunately, the way modern music production works, we often don't have much opportunity to make our feelings on the issue known.

With classical music, you often have a choice of several different performances of the same piece, and even different recordings of the same performance.

This means that you CAN avoid a certain record company, or a certain mixing engineer, if you don't like their stylistic choices.

However, with most other music, you have little choice.

It really isn't practical to avoid purchasing albums by your favorite group because you are dissatisfied with the sound quality.

In most case there isn't an option to buy a better-sounding version of that same group somewhere else.

At best you can speak up whenever possible and hope someone is listening.

Feb 11, 2019 19:52:06 GMT -5 MusicHead said:

If we define distortion simply as something at the output that was not at the input, then compression IS a form of distortion.

I DESPISE recordings with artificially squashed dynamic.

[MusicHead]

Keith,

Yes, that is what I meant to refer to when I wrote "artificially". If the original was not intended to be compressed and then it is compressed after the fact, to me it is just another form of distortion.