Well Keith I have a pair of T2s...

[robs]

...eventhough I criticized the measurements from the Stereophile review.

Schiit Vidar as the amp and DC-1 for DAC/Pre-Amp.

Thinking about getting a different DAC though, what do you think Keith? What synergizes well with these speakers and amp?

Should I get another Vidar and bi-amp these speakers or run them in monoblock mode?

[garbulky]

robs
You are just fine! Sit back and listen. What do you think of the sound? Is that your current placement? It may be a bit too close together.

[vcautokid]

If you go mono you run balanced full differential too. If you have a source and Preamplifier that is full balanced and differential. Is worth it to go mono. Do the basics first. They are almost free. Speaker placement, room treatment, and so on. More power doesn't always fix everything first.

[robs]

May 7, 2019 23:21:07 GMT -5 garbulky said:

robs
You are just fine! Sit back and listen. What do you think of the sound? Is that your current placement? It may be a bit too close together.

No that picture was taken as soon as I took the T2s out of the box. Too eager to set everything up and get an initial listen.

Right now I have them about 12ft apart up against a wall, slightly toed in towards me. I'm in a pretty small carpeted room. I don't have any bass treatments or other stuff. Just a computer desk between the speakers while I'm sitting in the sweet spot for imaging.

Positives:
- Phenomenal reproduction of vocals from that AMT tweeter. If you listen to predominately vocal based music, these are your speakers. Clarity and transparency are superb here.
- Bass is extremely tight and booming. The Vidar's biggest strength is in this area and competes with TOTL amps in bass reproduction.

Negatives:
- Might be a touch too smooth and soft for aggressive rock music for some.
- Some tracks might be too laid back for some, others grab you by the balls.

I still need to do more listening to make an opinion on the midrange. 

The only question for me now is how resolving these speakers are to warrant a few changes in my system, like trying out a different DAC or bi-amping/monoblocking.

[Boomzilla]

Hi robs -

Might I suggest that if some tracks are "too laid back...others grab you by the stones," then it might be the recording, not the speakers? But I could be wrong...

The bass can be easily adjusted by changing the distance to the back wall.

Boomzilla

[brubacca]

I agree with Boomzilla. Some sound great and some don't.... Its the recordings. Welcome to the hell of owning really good gear. Sit back and just listen.

If you must do something I'd suggest a Bifrost Multibit and Saga preamp to compliment Vidar.

[geebo]

May 8, 2019 5:46:17 GMT -5 robs said:

May 7, 2019 23:21:07 GMT -5 garbulky said:

robs
You are just fine! Sit back and listen. What do you think of the sound? Is that your current placement? It may be a bit too close together.

No that picture was taken as soon as I took the T2s out of the box. Too eager to set everything up and get an initial listen.

Right now I have them about 12ft apart up against a wall, slightly toed in towards me. I'm in a pretty small carpeted room. I don't have any bass treatments or other stuff. Just a computer desk between the speakers while I'm sitting in the sweet spot for imaging.

Positives:
- Phenomenal reproduction of vocals from that AMT tweeter. If you listen to predominately vocal based music, these are your speakers. Clarity and transparency are superb here.
- Bass is extremely tight and booming. The Vidar's biggest strength is in this area and competes with TOTL amps in bass reproduction.

Negatives:
- Might be a touch too smooth and soft for aggressive rock music for some.
- Some tracks might be too laid back for some, others grab you by the balls.

I still need to do more listening to make an opinion on the midrange. 

The only question for me now is how resolving these speakers are to warrant a few changes in my system, like trying out a different DAC or bi-amping/monoblocking.

If the bass is too boomy for you you can try partially plugging the ports in the back. Rory worked with me on doing that while he was still with Emotiva because I had to have them a bit too close to the wall. I ended up with some 1.5" shipping tubes surrounded by foam stuffed into the ports and that tamed the bass pretty well.

[robs]

May 8, 2019 5:54:43 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Hi robs -

Might I suggest that if some tracks are "too laid back...others grab you by the stones," then it might be the recording, not the speakers? But I could be wrong...

The bass can be easily adjusted by changing the distance to the back wall.

Boomzilla

Yup that's definitely true. A lot of recordings I have from the 80s do sound flat and not very involving. Some more modern recordings make me sit up a bit more from my chair to take notice. I guess I could do some equalization, but I'm a purist and rather have the recording reproduced with warts and all.

I like the bass as it is now. Sure it's probably better if there is more distance from the wall, but I'm very happy with the bass right now. I just don't have much room to get serious speaker placement.

[robs]

May 8, 2019 6:48:44 GMT -5 geebo said:

May 8, 2019 5:46:17 GMT -5 robs said:

If the bass is too boomy for you you can try partially plugging the ports in the back. Rory worked with me on doing that while he was still with Emotiva because I had to have them a bit too close to the wall. I ended up with some 1.5" shipping tubes surrounded by foam stuffed into the ports and that tamed the bass pretty well.

Oh I didn't know the adjective "boomy" was a bad thing. No I mean the bass from these loudspeakers really kick. It's the opposite of it sounding "bloomy".

[ÈlTwo]

We take "boomy," when referring to bass, to mean the opposite of "clean."

[robs]

Gotcha. Yeah definitely the opposite of "boomy" then.

When this amp isn't full warmed up, the bass can be a bit flabby and "bloomy".

[rbk123]

Spend more time playing with location, and also with angle. Try raising the back some and see if that changes things; same with the front or both the back and front. However you probably should hold off making any changes until they are fully broken in and then take your time with the positioning/angle testing. That way you're only changing one variable at a time as it will take a while for them to fully break in.

[garbulky]

You've got it right rob. The DC-1 is a fantastic dac for ya. I have one and I've listened to the very nice T2's with it. I've also listened to a whole lot of dacs to compare. There's been a lot that don't sound as good. There's been a rare few that sound as good as the DC-1 (Mytek Liberty, Rega DAC). There's been a few that sound a bit better in some aspects (Schiit Gumby multibit - better in some - worse in other aspects). But in overall sound, there's been none that I would spend the money to trade it in. I will tell you the Emotiva XPA-1 gen 2 is the best amp I've heard - and I listen at rather low volumes. My upgrade is eventually going to be a Schiit Ygdrassil but I'm waiting on a unit that has a remote.
But I think the Vidar will be JUST FINE and perhaps not worth the money to upgrade.

If anything, you can try room treatment. Even a little can make a difference. I think that's where you will see noticeable improvements. That and carpets.
www.amazon.com/ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24x48x2-Inches/dp/B002WLB0RW
EVen one of these behind your head on the wall may help. More the better.

[robs]

May 8, 2019 9:00:33 GMT -5 garbulky said:

You've got it right rob. The DC-1 is a fantastic dac for ya. I have one and I've listened to the very nice T2's with it. I've also listened to a whole lot of dacs to compare. There's been a lot that don't sound as good. There's been a rare few that sound as good as the DC-1 (Mytek Liberty, Rega DAC). There's been a few that sound a bit better in some aspects (Schiit Gumby multibit - better in some - worse in other aspects). But in overall sound, there's been none that I would spend the money to trade it in. I will tell you the Emotiva XPA-1 gen 2 is the best amp I've heard - and I listen at rather low volumes. My upgrade is eventually going to be a Schiit Ygdrassil but I'm waiting on a unit that has a remote.
But I think the Vidar will be JUST FINE and perhaps not worth the money to upgrade.

If anything, you can try room treatment. Even a little can make a difference. I think that's where you will see noticeable improvements. That and carpets.
www.amazon.com/ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24x48x2-Inches/dp/B002WLB0RW
EVen one of these behind your head on the wall may help. More the better.

So are you saying just stick with one Vidar then with the T2s? I mean the T2s have a sensitivity of 91db, so maybe it doesn't make sense to get a 2nd?

I wonder how much gain would be introduced in the system with two Vidars.

[tchaik]

robs,

looking forward to seeing your setup once placement, toe-in etc.... is done.
more pics please. I love my T2's

[Bonzo]

May 8, 2019 5:46:17 GMT -5 robs said:

May 7, 2019 23:21:07 GMT -5 garbulky said:

robs
You are just fine! Sit back and listen. What do you think of the sound? Is that your current placement? It may be a bit too close together.

No that picture was taken as soon as I took the T2s out of the box. Too eager to set everything up and get an initial listen.

Right now I have them about 12ft apart up against a wall, slightly toed in towards me. I'm in a pretty small carpeted room. I don't have any bass treatments or other stuff. Just a computer desk between the speakers while I'm sitting in the sweet spot for imaging.

Positives:
- Phenomenal reproduction of vocals from that AMT tweeter. If you listen to predominately vocal based music, these are your speakers. Clarity and transparency are superb here.
- Bass is extremely tight and booming. The Vidar's biggest strength is in this area and competes with TOTL amps in bass reproduction.

Negatives:
- Might be a touch too smooth and soft for aggressive rock music for some.
- Some tracks might be too laid back for some, others grab you by the balls.

I still need to do more listening to make an opinion on the midrange. 

The only question for me now is how resolving these speakers are to warrant a few changes in my system, like trying out a different DAC or bi-amping/monoblocking.

How big is your room? 12 feet apart is quite a distance apart.

[robs]

Sorry guys can't answer your questions yet or post more pictures because I just bought a Bifrost Multibit and Saga preamp both from Schiit.

I went with the Bifrost for the DAC because it uses a 16 bit DAC chip and I really missed the Modi Multibit I had, which also had the mega combo burrito filter. Nearly all of my music is 16/44.1 and I have hundreds of redbook CDs I listen to with my CD transport. Considering the Multibit preserves all the original samples intact, the 16 bit Bifrost is a perfect match there. Considering I am still using single ended connections, didn't make much sense to get a more expensive DAC that had balanced connections...unless I go the monoblock route which I'm still uncertain of. Also the Bifrost is upgradeable and supposedly their new USB implementation next year will be superior to SPDIF...we'll see.

I needed a pre-amp to go with the DAC, so the Saga seemed like a pretty good budget pick as it has a relay-switched stepped attenuator but I could also use it as a tube buffer.

So what will happen to my DC-1?

Well it's going to have exclusive duties running my JBL LSR305s for computer use.

I'll try to get more pics in as soon as I get everything setup, and then get your guys take on my room setup/treatments.

[selind40]

May 10, 2019 7:59:13 GMT -5 robs said:

Sorry guys can't answer your questions yet or post more pictures because I just bought a Bifrost Multibit and Saga preamp both from Schiit.

I went with the Bifrost for the DAC because it uses a 16 bit DAC chip and I really missed the Modi Multibit I had, which also had the mega combo burrito filter. Nearly all of my music is 16/44.1 and I have hundreds of redbook CDs I listen to with my CD transport. Considering the Multibit preserves all the original samples intact, the 16 bit Bifrost is a perfect match there. Considering I am still using single ended connections, didn't make much sense to get a more expensive DAC that had balanced connections...unless I go the monoblock route which I'm still uncertain of. Also the Bifrost is upgradeable and supposedly their new USB implementation next year will be superior to SPDIF...we'll see.

I needed a pre-amp to go with the DAC, so the Saga seemed like a pretty good budget pick as it has a relay-switched stepped attenuator but I could also use it as a tube buffer.

So what will happen to my DC-1?

Well it's going to have exclusive duties running my JBL LSR305s for computer use.

I'll try to get more pics in as soon as I get everything setup, and then get your guys take on my room setup/treatments.

Sounds like you got a great plan going...….but, if that DC-1 needs a new home....let me know

[KeithL]

I figured it's about time I chimed in with a few comments....

I have always considered the DC-1 to be a really excellent DAC - and I haven't changed that opinion.

(I can honestly say that I haven't heard any other DAC in the $500 price range that I thought sounded better.)

And, of course, you DON'T need a preamp to go with the DC-1.

Individual DACs sound different for a variety of reasons - however there is no specific technological advantage to "multi-bit DACs".

The claim that "such and such a DAC preserves all the original samples", while true, is really a sort of red herring.

The output on your DAC is ANALOG.... therefore, you aren't hearing any samples, original or otherwise...

All that matters is how accurately that analog output represents the information that those samples were carrying...

(And, to be quite blunt, how it minces and dices the samples on the way to that result is totally irrelevant; all that matters is the result.)

I've never heard one in person, but the Vidar seems like a nice little amp, so I have no comments on it either way.

However, unless you actually need more power, the result of which would be a slight increase in how loud you can play your system, I see little reason to add a second one.

(And, while the Vidar seems like an excellent deal on its own, when you look at the price and performance of a pair of them, there are other options to consider.)

I am of very mixed opinions when it comes to tube buffers.

Most modern equipment should have no need for a buffer - and there's no reason to suggest that it would improve anything.

The ONLY thing that a TUBE buffer can do, beyond being a buffer, is to add coloration to the sound.

I personally prefer to avoid coloration whenever possible - so I have no use for them.

But, while I haven't heard the Saga, I've heard other tube gear from Schiit Audio, and found it to be well designed and nicely built...

Also, to be fair, while some tube gear sounds almost indistinguishable from solid state gear, Schiit's tube gear usually manages to sound like what it is.

So, if you really want tube coloration, then that's probably a good way to get it.

(Also, worth noting, is that a tube power amp usually adds a a lot of coloration, and has a major effect on the bass because of its low damping factor; the effect from a tube buffer will be more subtle.)

I would, however, suggest that you actually compare the sound of your DC-1 to that of your new DAC (with and without the tube buffer).

You might be surprised about which pieces of gear actually end up where.

May 10, 2019 8:25:55 GMT -5 selind40 said:

May 10, 2019 7:59:13 GMT -5 robs said:

Sorry guys can't answer your questions yet or post more pictures because I just bought a Bifrost Multibit and Saga preamp both from Schiit.

I went with the Bifrost for the DAC because it uses a 16 bit DAC chip and I really missed the Modi Multibit I had, which also had the mega combo burrito filter. Nearly all of my music is 16/44.1 and I have hundreds of redbook CDs I listen to with my CD transport. Considering the Multibit preserves all the original samples intact, the 16 bit Bifrost is a perfect match there. Considering I am still using single ended connections, didn't make much sense to get a more expensive DAC that had balanced connections...unless I go the monoblock route which I'm still uncertain of. Also the Bifrost is upgradeable and supposedly their new USB implementation next year will be superior to SPDIF...we'll see.

I needed a pre-amp to go with the DAC, so the Saga seemed like a pretty good budget pick as it has a relay-switched stepped attenuator but I could also use it as a tube buffer.

So what will happen to my DC-1?

Well it's going to have exclusive duties running my JBL LSR305s for computer use.

I'll try to get more pics in as soon as I get everything setup, and then get your guys take on my room setup/treatments.

Sounds like you got a great plan going...….but, if that DC-1 needs a new home....let me know

[selind40]

May 10, 2019 11:39:52 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I figured it's about time I chimed in with a few comments....

I have always considered the DC-1 to be a really excellent DAC - and I haven't changed that opinion.

(I can honestly say that I haven't heard any other DAC in the $500 price range that I thought sounded better.)

And, of course, you DON'T need a preamp to go with the DC-1.

Individual DACs sound different for a variety of reasons - however there is no specific technological advantage to "multi-bit DACs".

The claim that "such and such a DAC preserves all the original samples", while true, is really a sort of red herring.

The output on your DAC is ANALOG.... therefore, you aren't hearing any samples, original or otherwise...

All that matters is how accurately that analog output represents the information that those samples were carrying...

(And, to be quite blunt, how it minces and dices the samples on the way to that result is totally irrelevant; all that matters is the result.)

I've never heard one in person, but the Vidar seems like a nice little amp, so I have no comments on it either way.

However, unless you actually need more power, the result of which would be a slight increase in how loud you can play your system, I see little reason to add a second one.

(And, while the Vidar seems like an excellent deal on its own, when you look at the price and performance of a pair of them, there are other options to consider.)

I am of very mixed opinions when it comes to tube buffers.

Most modern equipment should have no need for a buffer - and there's no reason to suggest that it would improve anything.

The ONLY thing that a TUBE buffer can do, beyond being a buffer, is to add coloration to the sound.

I personally prefer to avoid coloration whenever possible - so I have no use for them.

But, while I haven't heard the Saga, I've heard other tube gear from Schiit Audio, and found it to be well designed and nicely built...

Also, to be fair, while some tube gear sounds almost indistinguishable from solid state gear, Schiit's tube gear usually manages to sound like what it is.

So, if you really want tube coloration, then that's probably a good way to get it.

(Also, worth noting, is that a tube power amp usually adds a a lot of coloration, and has a major effect on the bass because of its low damping factor; the effect from a tube buffer will be more subtle.)

I would, however, suggest that you actually compare the sound of your DC-1 to that of your new DAC (with and without the tube buffer).

You might be surprised about which pieces of gear actually end up where.

May 10, 2019 8:25:55 GMT -5 selind40 said:

Sounds like you got a great plan going...….but, if that DC-1 needs a new home....let me know

Damn it Keith...… I was that close to prying the DC-1 away for my system... Lol. : )   Have a nice weekend everyone!!