Emotiva Gen 3 5 Channel and Tekton Ulfberhts

[Deleted]

Jul 19, 2019 9:25:46 GMT -5 KeithL said:

You're quite right - the impedance of most speakers varies significantly over their operating range (in terms of frequency).

The so-called "nominal impedance" is just a sort of general approximation.

There are, however, a few "guidelines" that are usually followed.

For example, it is lower impedance that requires more current from an amplifier, and so makes it work harder.

Therefore, it's not considered to be important if a certain speaker has an impedance that goes very high at a certain frequency, but having an impedance that dips especially low is considered to be "bad form".

The general guideline is that a "well behaved" speaker shouldn't dip much below about 75% of nominal impedance...

So, for example, a 4 Ohm speaker shouldn't dip much below 2.75 Ohms or perhaps 3 Ohms.

It's also less of an issue if a speaker has an impedance that dips very low at very high frequencies - because there is less energy at those frequencies (so the amplifier isn't being strained as much).

Now... as for impedance and driver excursion.

In theory a driver should have a consistent impedance over its full range of excursion.

(If not, that would suggest that the force driving it will vary as it moves, while reproducing a waveform, which would cause distortion.)

In practice, this is never perfect, and some drivers are designed this way as a way to protect themselves.

(Instead of whacking on the end stops if you overdrive them they just sort of stall instead... which doesn't sound quite as bad and doesn't actually break anything.)

It also relates to driver efficiency.

(As a designer, you're trading low distortion over a long excursion, against better efficiency during short excursions, and a bigger and more expensive magnet.)

I should also point out two flaws in what you said about measuring a speaker with an Ohmmeter.

First, a normal Ohmmeter uses DC current to measure resistance, so it will be measuring DC resistance and not the impedance of the voice coil.

In order to measure impedance you need to use an AC test signal.

Second, there's a lot more going on when you push on a woofer.

Yes, by moving the position of the voice coil relative to the magnetic field, you may alter the impedance (by pushing it to a less linear region of its travel).

(This really shouldn't be the case and would normally be considered to be a design flaw... unless it's being done deliberately as a sort of protection.)

However, the impedance of a speaker is largely determined by its mechanical characteristics... like the moving mass of the cone and the spring force provided by the suspension.

By pressing directly on it, you are restricting its movement, which is going to have a major effect on those other parameters.

It would be the equivalent of measuring the characteristics of an electric motor - while holding the shaft so that it can't spin...

The results will be quite far from those you would see "under normal operation".

(It's also rather dangerous to push on a woofer cone because some speakers can be damaged rather easily that way.)

Jul 18, 2019 16:52:15 GMT -5 @shimei said:

Awesome and thorough response!

While I agree lemme point out that even a single speaker rated at 4 ohms will have different impedance at various frequencies. 

Correct me if wrong! Doesn't speaker impedance change? If I take an ohm meter and measure a woofers impedance and push in or out the woofer at various points of excursion does it not change?

Not meaning to overthink this but I was referring to nominal impedance.

Thank you Keith! You're a treasure of knowledge!

Thank you Keith. And just for a point of clarification I would never "push on a woofer" which is working. I was referring to nominal impedance and as you comprehensively stated the different resistance which can be measured at different positions of the speaker's travel.

Also to clarify AudioHTIT I do understand various passive x-overs utilize caps which can hold a charge. Testing can be difficult which is even made obviously observed when simply testing polarity. Taking an "AA" battery and putting it to a speaker with a passive x-over will work one time because of the caps, then the leads need be reversed in order to accurately test phase and whether a speaker may be out of polarity. In car audio this is one of the things installers do. In order to make sure all speakers are in phase pushing out or in at the same time they apply a small voltage. If a speaker especially a woofer is out of phase it becomes quite apparent even by "ear". This is not to suggest that environment etc doesn't have a play in phase shifting but as a basic guideline in wiring up a correct installation.

And yes AudioHTIT I am assuming that nominal impedance of a bi amp connector on the back of the speaker cabinet which is vertically bridged is using 2 8ohm (nominal) channels to come to 4ohms. I could be wrong and acknowledge that if x-overs are taken into account that that might not be correct. And also there's a chance that each channel is 2 ohm but less probable at the bi amp connector in the back as it would not be vertical or parallel at the terminals unless as you suggested the frequencies are taken into account by various x-overs.

To note: I was really intrigued by how testing phase of a speakers some installers use a 9v battery. Can't imagine how many watts that's equal to! Just guessing in the neighborhood of 400watts.

I was never active on this forum before but I'm enjoying the conversation. Can't wait to test various set up combinations and configurations!

I really love it that you fellas are being analytical etc. I plan to review my final setup and think that your input will help make any review more accurate!

[Deleted]

Jul 19, 2019 1:00:49 GMT -5 leonski said:

If you REALLY want to biamp, and with the overall VERY high sensitivity of these speakers, I can't figure the need, your best bet, especially to avoid what Keith wrote about is to GO ACTIVE.

In Short:
First? Find out about the speakers built-in crossover. Frequencies, 'order' and 'type' for a start.
Buy a MiniDSP to cover your needs. Go to their website and check it out.

You'll end up with an amplifier connected to each 'way' of the speaker AND no out of band signal TO the speaker so Keith's objections are off-the-table.
For this type of setup? You could EASILY use the PA-1 amp at 3 per speaker. This would give you incredible power AND ultimately more control than you'll know what to do with.
The MiniDSP has a good software setup which gives you more power than a speaker designer of maybe only 10 years ago could Dream About.
The MiniDSP as crossover goes between the PREAMP and the AMP.   And it's all done at LINE LEVEL......

I'd avoid bridging, too.    In decades in this 'hobby', I've heard of only a few examples of bridging actually helping.    Most often, you go backwards as far as sound quality.  

What makes you even THINK you need so much power?    How much do you think you need?   Keep in mind that doubling power only results in a net of 3db increase.  So If you have
100 watts per speaker NOW, a bump to 200 watts is really minimal.    Assuming all watts are 'equal', which is certainly NOT the case.    10x the power to an even KiloWatt would buy you 
a more meaningful 10db increase.    You see where this is leading, right?   If the speakers I looked at in the Tekton line are what you have, and at 99db sensitivity?    20 watts would put you
out of the house.    And 150 would get you evicted from the neighborhood.  About a 9db increase.  

Active! I'm sure that's an option but I do have a financial limitation!

I don't really think I need a lot of power but I'm trying to utilize what I already own most efficiently. Since the Atmos really are useless to me at this time because they are upward firing I mind as well utilize the XPA-5 in the most practical configuration. I mean what are my choices? Run a left center and right and just let two channels open and not used? Or utilize them all?

Much appreciate your input leonski!

William

[leonski]

Keith, I'm not CERTAI?N, but I think the OP was thinking he pushed on a woofer cone on an UNPOWERED speaker also not connnected to anything.
Using the resistance function of a DVM, you might see variations in resistance but if you move th cone quickly enough. Maybe a few MV on the 200mv scale?
Of course, pushing 'off center' will potentially damage the woofer but pushing evenly round the edge should be ok.

And yes, shamei, speaker impedance does change as a functin of frequency. And also as a function of internal heat, after all speakers as a whole are seldom much more than even 2% efficient.
The remainder goes into HEAT. The voice coil wire, which is essentially BARE COPPER is coated with a very thin coating as an insulator. But it is also rated to a certain tempreture. After that?
You risk 'cooking' a driver which is NEVER good. And the stink with potential amplifier damage.

Link is to MORE than you'd ever want to know about magnet wire temp ratings and classes

www.superioressex.com/uploadedFiles/News/White_Papers/emcwa-nema_magnet-thermal-class-ratings.pdf

[AudioHTIT]

So you’re going to have the three Tekton’s across the front, and you have some kind of up-firing speaker that normally sits on top of another speaker for Atmos? Maybe subwoofers too? You also have the Onkyo for a processor, I assume there’s a display in there somewhere? What about sources, do you have cable/satellite? What about streaming video like ATV or Roku? My point is do you have sources for surround sound? Do you even have a source for Atmos?

If you have 5.1 sources and no Atmos, I’d setup the L/C/R using three channels of the XPA-5, and try to find a way to situate the up-firing speakers as surrounds and try 5.x. Bi-amping any speaker will be subtle, but going from 3.x to 5.x will make quite a difference. Maybe you can try changing the bounce point of the speakers and switch between 5.x and 3.x.2. You have lots of time to try bi-amping, it’s better to play with after you know what the speaker sounds like in a standard configuration, and when you’re trying to eek out the last bit of performance. So, back where you started

[Deleted]

Jul 19, 2019 22:49:00 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

So you’re going to have the three Tekton’s across the front, and you have some kind of up-firing speaker that normally sits on top of another speaker for Atmos? Maybe subwoofers too? You also have the Onkyo for a processor, I assume there’s a display in there somewhere? What about sources, do you have cable/satellite? What about streaming video like ATV or Roku? My point is do you have sources for surround sound? Do you even have a source for Atmos?

If you have 5.1 sources and no Atmos, I’d setup the L/C/R using three channels of the XPA-5, and try to find a way to situate the up-firing speakers as surrounds and try 5.x. Bi-amping any speaker will be subtle, but going from 3.x to 5.x will make quite a difference. Maybe you can try changing the bounce point of the speakers and switch between 5.x and 3.x.2. You have lots of time to try bi-amping, it’s better to play with after you know what the speaker sounds like in a standard configuration, and when you’re trying to eek out the last bit of performance. So, back where you started

I'm upgrading the TV soon. I plan to purchase a 65in OLED LG but not completely educated on the equipment yet. So my future purchase isn't set in stone. Also I have a new Sony UBP-X700 4K Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player. I've been using it to stream media from internet and plugin a USB device. It does play just about every format of music I listen to. Most of the movies I watch if not on disk I stream from the Sony device. The Onkyo also allows USB connections which I haven't experimented with as of yet.

The center channel I'm replacing with the Ulfberht is a Klipsch RC-64ii and the current Atmos are Klipsch RP-500SA.

I think I'll sell these speakers because I haven't a use for them anymore. 

Your thoughts?

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2019 8:51:24 GMT -5 davidl81 said:

Jul 15, 2019 0:25:24 GMT -5 @shimei said:

Hello,

I own an Emotiva Gen 3 5 Channel. I am purchasing the Tekton Ulfberhts this week. My question is what is the output of the Emotiva Amp all 5 channels driven? Here's the thing, the front sound stage which includes Ulfberhts and Tekton Double Impact Center Wide will be 4 ohms. And the Atmos pair of speakers will be 8 ohms.

I'm considering purchasing a second amp just to run my front sound stage: the Ulfberhts and Double Impact Center at 4 ohms.

In summation, what is the 4 ohm rating of a mixed ohm amp? And would you definitely suggest a second amp to power the front sound stage? If so would you recommend I purchase a two channel or three channel amp to power the front sound stage? That is, using a 3 channel to power the entire front sound stage or using a 2 channel to power the Ulfberhts and the 5 channel to power the center and atmos?

Besides listening to music this will be in a theater system.

So all channels in 8 ohm is 250 WPC, in 4 ohm you should get about 400 WPC.  Now in a real world setting especially in home theater you will never have a situation where each channel is pushed to full output at the same time. Maybe one channel (center), but even then it would be pretty rare.

As far as a second amp what is your full set up?  Is it going to just be the front speakers (L/C/R) and then the two Atmos speakers?  Are you running any surround speakers, and if so what is driving those?  Your Tekton speakers are pretty awesome, and if you were to get a different amp I would look real hard at the DR-3 amp for that front stage.  It will get you 600 WPC with all three channels driven.  

Finally got around to taking your advice David. After listening to the XPA Gen 3 power my L C R for a couple of months I decided last night to order the DR-3. I hope the DR-3 will be a serious upgrade in both power and sound all channels driven into 4 ohms. I'll keep the XPA Gen 3 5 channel but in the future might add another channel or three to it in order to accommodate 4 Atmos and possibly rear surrounds for movie play back. 

Enjoy,
Shim

[leonski]

Aimlessly 'improving' stuff is not the way to go. System goals will help you see thru the fog of 'too much stuff'. And unless you need an audiologist to help with hearing problems, MORE power probably isn't going to get you there.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2020 14:04:01 GMT -5 leonski said:

Aimlessly 'improving' stuff is not the way to go. System goals will help you see thru the fog of 'too much stuff'. And unless you need an audiologist to help with hearing problems, MORE power probably isn't going to get you there.

Well, 

My ultimate goal is to utilize an Onkyo 5100 11 channel for movie playback. 

It was either a DR-3 or sending back the XPA 5 for 6 more channels totaling 11 channels. I seriously considered the McIntosh MC303 to power the LCR. Even looked at Parasound as I noted Tekton's Eric seemingly prefers them.  

In the end for less than the Mcintosh I ordered the DR-3 and another Tekton 4-10 subwoofer last night. The McIntosh is an interesting amp producing 400 watts around 1200 watts dynamic jeezers 70 amps and weighs 150 pounds. Point is though I never heard the McIntosh I'm sure it would be like comparing apples to oranges. Still have the budget now to purchase 4 in ceiling speakers for Atmos and even surrounds. 

I'm still short 1-3 channels depending whether I go 4 Atmos and surrounds or not. In the beginning I went with the Emotiva Gen 3 because it was expandable. That was before the DR series came out. 

[leonski]

Will you like the Mac House Sound? You should have some idea before you plunk down THAT kind of coin. Apples and Oranges? Maybe not even that close.

Right now, your 'goals' such as they are center on 'stuff' rather than the sound. Me? I'd start with a Source First approach and
find out if the Onkyo was the bottleneck.

I'm not even going to get into subwoofers, number and setup. My very oddly shaped room is quite good with a single sub, after positioning experiments to find
THE best place for it. Very musical AND plenty of slam for movies as well as producing sub-20hz output of pipe organs.......For the few tunes written which call for such.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2020 14:49:31 GMT -5 leonski said:

Will you like the Mac House Sound? You should have some idea before you plunk down THAT kind of coin. Apples and Oranges? Maybe not even that close.

Right now, your 'goals' such as they are center on 'stuff' rather than the sound. Me? I'd start with a Source First approach and
find out if the Onkyo was the bottleneck.

I'm not even going to get into subwoofers, number and setup. My very oddly shaped room is quite good with a single sub, after positioning experiments to find
THE best place for it. Very musical AND plenty of slam for movies as well as producing sub-20hz output of pipe organs.......For the few tunes written which call for such.

I have no idea as to why you suggest my goals are on stuff rather than sound. And I wasn't aware of there being a bottleneck. 

I don't listen to stereo configuration music playback though with a push of a button the Onkyo bypasses the DAC and runs straight from the source. However, there's a night and day difference going from stereo to 3 channel mode. The dedicated center channel through a center Ulfberht adds a dimension missing from stereo. I also can't help but notice the lack of Atmos' missing objects overhead while playing movies etc. I desire to hear the overhead whirl of choppers or bullets whizzing past my head during movies such as Black Hawk Down or Saving Private Ryan. 

And I agree with you regarding McIntosh, that is, for ten grand one should have the opportunity to listen to the product first. Found a local dealer nearby since McIntosh doesn't sell the amp I was looking at online. They also don't have Tekton's try and return policy for months at a time. Never made my way down to the local McIntosh dealer last weekend as I began rethinking what was most desirable especially since most of my time in front of the system isn't music listening but movie playback. While I do listen to music I seldom listen to playback at low levels but rather what most might consider uncomfortable. I never really listened to music at this kinda level before until purchasing the Ulfs. First thing I noted after 30 minutes of playback was that I was not fatigued from listening. The system just plays louder and louder while sounding as beautifully at low levels. Though, the Ulfs are rated at 1000 watts I'd like something more to push the speakers to a point beyond my expectation. 

Happy you have your desired setup. The Ulfberhts have 4 12" subs. The 4-10 was excess but now that I've listened to the system I find it difficult to live without. The 4-10 sub is a sealed enclosure and actually sounds wonderful up to where I have it crossed over  at 120hz. Last two months I've been playing with various cross over points and I find the 120hz to be most desirable for me. Just that added range between 80 to 120hz draws out a part of the music at levels I never heard before. 

In my mind this is an amusing point which goes to the power of suggestion. A problem I am facing is actual visual orientation. There's only 1 4-10 on the left side and I'd like to balance out the visual. I keep hunting left with my head because of the off balance visual. When a bass note really quakes I keep leaning left with my head looking towards the source. Anyways, when the second 4-10 arrives I plan to integrate it into the system. As is the low end is incredible but not quite there yet. The hairs on the back of my neck are only starting to raise from high SPL levels rather than making them stand straight up 

I'm sure you see where'd I like to put the other 4-10 [one on left and one on right]. And I can't wait to get rid of the 2 Atmos upward firing speakers by Klipsch ontop of the Ulfs. Under the vaulted ceiling they are ineffective only raising the sound stage rather than making an overhead presence. I'm certain 4 in ceiling Atmos speakers will provide the desired effects. 

[davidl81]

Jan 27, 2020 14:17:57 GMT -5 @shimei said:

Jan 27, 2020 14:04:01 GMT -5 leonski said:

Aimlessly 'improving' stuff is not the way to go. System goals will help you see thru the fog of 'too much stuff'. And unless you need an audiologist to help with hearing problems, MORE power probably isn't going to get you there.

Well, 

My ultimate goal is to utilize an Onkyo 5100 11 channel for movie playback. 

It was either a DR-3 or sending back the XPA 5 for 6 more channels totaling 11 channels. I seriously considered the McIntosh MC303 to power the LCR. Even looked at Parasound as I noted Tekton's Eric seemingly prefers them.  

In the end for less than the Mcintosh I ordered the DR-3 and another Tekton 4-10 subwoofer last night. The McIntosh is an interesting amp producing 400 watts around 1200 watts dynamic jeezers 70 amps and weighs 150 pounds. Point is though I never heard the McIntosh I'm sure it would be like comparing apples to oranges. Still have the budget now to purchase 4 in ceiling speakers for Atmos and even surrounds. 

I'm still short 1-3 channels depending whether I go 4 Atmos and surrounds or not. In the beginning I went with the Emotiva Gen 3 because it was expandable. That was before the DR series came out. 

I have the DR-2 and a XPA-9 for my 7.2.4 setup.  5 mono blades on my XPA-9 (Center and surrounds), and 2 stereo blades for the Atmos Channels).  Hindsight being 20/20 I would have done a DR-3 for the LCR and XPA-10 (4 mono blades and 3 stereo blades) in case I ever wanted to add another pair of in ceiling speakers or another surround channel.  But overall I am beyond happy with my current setup. 

[leonski]

Jan 27, 2020 15:58:56 GMT -5 @shimei said:

Jan 27, 2020 14:49:31 GMT -5 leonski said:

Will you like the Mac House Sound? You should have some idea before you plunk down THAT kind of coin. Apples and Oranges? Maybe not even that close.

Right now, your 'goals' such as they are center on 'stuff' rather than the sound. Me? I'd start with a Source First approach and
find out if the Onkyo was the bottleneck.

I'm not even going to get into subwoofers, number and setup. My very oddly shaped room is quite good with a single sub, after positioning experiments to find
THE best place for it. Very musical AND plenty of slam for movies as well as producing sub-20hz output of pipe organs.......For the few tunes written which call for such.

I have no idea as to why you suggest my goals are on stuff rather than sound. And I wasn't aware of there being a bottleneck. 

I don't listen to stereo configuration music playback though with a push of a button the Onkyo bypasses the DAC and runs straight from the source. However, there's a night and day difference going from stereo to 3 channel mode. The dedicated center channel through a center Ulfberht adds a dimension missing from stereo. I also can't help but notice the lack of Atmos' missing objects overhead while playing movies etc. I desire to hear the overhead whirl of choppers or bullets whizzing past my head during movies such as Black Hawk Down or Saving Private Ryan. 

And I agree with you regarding McIntosh, that is, for ten grand one should have the opportunity to listen to the product first. Found a local dealer nearby since McIntosh doesn't sell the amp I was looking at online. They also don't have Tekton's try and return policy for months at a time. Never made my way down to the local McIntosh dealer last weekend as I began rethinking what was most desirable especially since most of my time in front of the system isn't music listening but movie playback. While I do listen to music I seldom listen to playback at low levels but rather what most might consider uncomfortable. I never really listened to music at this kinda level before until purchasing the Ulfs. First thing I noted after 30 minutes of playback was that I was not fatigued from listening. The system just plays louder and louder while sounding as beautifully at low levels. Though, the Ulfs are rated at 1000 watts I'd like something more to push the speakers to a point beyond my expectation. 

Happy you have your desired setup. The Ulfberhts have 4 12" subs. The 4-10 was excess but now that I've listened to the system I find it difficult to live without. The 4-10 sub is a sealed enclosure and actually sounds wonderful up to where I have it crossed over  at 120hz. Last two months I've been playing with various cross over points and I find the 120hz to be most desirable for me. Just that added range between 80 to 120hz draws out a part of the music at levels I never heard before. 

In my mind this is an amusing point which goes to the power of suggestion. A problem I am facing is actual visual orientation. There's only 1 4-10 on the left side and I'd like to balance out the visual. I keep hunting left with my head because of the off balance visual. When a bass note really quakes I keep leaning left with my head looking towards the source. Anyways, when the second 4-10 arrives I plan to integrate it into the system. As is the low end is incredible but not quite there yet. The hairs on the back of my neck are only starting to raise from high SPL levels rather than making them stand straight up 

I'm sure you see where'd I like to put the other 4-10 [one on left and one on right]. And I can't wait to get rid of the 2 Atmos upward firing speakers by Klipsch ontop of the Ulfs. Under the vaulted ceiling they are ineffective only raising the sound stage rather than making an overhead presence. I'm certain 4 in ceiling Atmos speakers will provide the desired effects. 

The 'standard' crossover, I think maybe Dolby Pro Logic or the other guys, is 80hz.   You MIGHT be responding to actually hearing the subs output in a range which you can localize.     I have a SINGLE sub crossed very low indeed.
Subs crossover is 24db/octave at about 40 to 45 hz.    The Mains are low-cut at about 50 to 55hz at 12db / octave.    The 'gap' fills in nicely.      If you are running your main speakers full range (?) you might have problems in the 'overlap' zone.    When I switch my sub OFF, the image collapses.    I don't know why.   But I accept that the mains produce the overtones of the bass and provide the image while the bass at such low frequencies can NOT be localized in a normal room.   Maybe a cavern of some sort?    This would be where the room dimensions EXCEED the wavelength of the bass frequency.   20hz might have a wavelength of 55 feet or more......

Now?   Speakers don't have watts and that should NOT be even the least concern.   A main consideration MIGHT be that the speakers in question have fairly high sensitivity (Efficiency is expressed as a %)  which means you probably don't use nearly as much power as you suspect.     And while Keith i quite correct with his notes on impedance, one thing left out of nearly all these discussions is REACTANCE.    Speakers can look like either a capacitor or inductor to an amplifier, and at various levels at different frequencies.    In the rare case where capacitive and inductive reactance is 'balanced' the speaker might look like a resistor....   I don't know about your Tekton speakers.    Absolute worst case is that they are very reactive and amp killers.   This is VERY unlikely.   
www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-design-impact-monitor-loudspeaker-measurements
Stereophile calls the Impact an 'Easy Load' which is good.    You get a lot out of every watt put in.    But the measured sensitivity is over 6db (a lot) lower than the spec......

We come from different places.    You mention effects and such several times.    Keep in mind that in movies NOBODY knows what it is supposed to actually sound like.    A canon shot?   
A jet zooming overhead.   A building tumbling down.      I've gotten lucky.   My sub is VERY musical and yet when the dinosaur walks, the pictures on the wall vibrate in unison.   

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2020 19:14:56 GMT -5 leonski said:

Jan 27, 2020 15:58:56 GMT -5 @shimei said:

I have no idea as to why you suggest my goals are on stuff rather than sound. And I wasn't aware of there being a bottleneck. 

I don't listen to stereo configuration music playback though with a push of a button the Onkyo bypasses the DAC and runs straight from the source. However, there's a night and day difference going from stereo to 3 channel mode. The dedicated center channel through a center Ulfberht adds a dimension missing from stereo. I also can't help but notice the lack of Atmos' missing objects overhead while playing movies etc. I desire to hear the overhead whirl of choppers or bullets whizzing past my head during movies such as Black Hawk Down or Saving Private Ryan. 

And I agree with you regarding McIntosh, that is, for ten grand one should have the opportunity to listen to the product first. Found a local dealer nearby since McIntosh doesn't sell the amp I was looking at online. They also don't have Tekton's try and return policy for months at a time. Never made my way down to the local McIntosh dealer last weekend as I began rethinking what was most desirable especially since most of my time in front of the system isn't music listening but movie playback. While I do listen to music I seldom listen to playback at low levels but rather what most might consider uncomfortable. I never really listened to music at this kinda level before until purchasing the Ulfs. First thing I noted after 30 minutes of playback was that I was not fatigued from listening. The system just plays louder and louder while sounding as beautifully at low levels. Though, the Ulfs are rated at 1000 watts I'd like something more to push the speakers to a point beyond my expectation. 

Happy you have your desired setup. The Ulfberhts have 4 12" subs. The 4-10 was excess but now that I've listened to the system I find it difficult to live without. The 4-10 sub is a sealed enclosure and actually sounds wonderful up to where I have it crossed over  at 120hz. Last two months I've been playing with various cross over points and I find the 120hz to be most desirable for me. Just that added range between 80 to 120hz draws out a part of the music at levels I never heard before. 

In my mind this is an amusing point which goes to the power of suggestion. A problem I am facing is actual visual orientation. There's only 1 4-10 on the left side and I'd like to balance out the visual. I keep hunting left with my head because of the off balance visual. When a bass note really quakes I keep leaning left with my head looking towards the source. Anyways, when the second 4-10 arrives I plan to integrate it into the system. As is the low end is incredible but not quite there yet. The hairs on the back of my neck are only starting to raise from high SPL levels rather than making them stand straight up 

I'm sure you see where'd I like to put the other 4-10 [one on left and one on right]. And I can't wait to get rid of the 2 Atmos upward firing speakers by Klipsch ontop of the Ulfs. Under the vaulted ceiling they are ineffective only raising the sound stage rather than making an overhead presence. I'm certain 4 in ceiling Atmos speakers will provide the desired effects. 

The 'standard' crossover, I think maybe Dolby Pro Logic or the other guys, is 80hz.   You MIGHT be responding to actually hearing the subs output in a range which you can localize.     I have a SINGLE sub crossed very low indeed.
Subs crossover is 24db/octave at about 40 to 45 hz.    The Mains are low-cut at about 50 to 55hz at 12db / octave.    The 'gap' fills in nicely.      If you are running your main speakers full range (?) you might have problems in the 'overlap' zone.    When I switch my sub OFF, the image collapses.    I don't know why.   But I accept that the mains produce the overtones of the bass and provide the image while the bass at such low frequencies can NOT be localized in a normal room.   Maybe a cavern of some sort?    This would be where the room dimensions EXCEED the wavelength of the bass frequency.   20hz might have a wavelength of 55 feet or more......

Now?   Speakers don't have watts and that should NOT be even the least concern.   A main consideration MIGHT be that the speakers in question have fairly high sensitivity (Efficiency is expressed as a %)  which means you probably don't use nearly as much power as you suspect.     And while Keith i quite correct with his notes on impedance, one thing left out of nearly all these discussions is REACTANCE.    Speakers can look like either a capacitor or inductor to an amplifier, and at various levels at different frequencies.    In the rare case where capacitive and inductive reactance is 'balanced' the speaker might look like a resistor....   I don't know about your Tekton speakers.    Absolute worst case is that they are very reactive and amp killers.   This is VERY unlikely.   
www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-design-impact-monitor-loudspeaker-measurements
Stereophile calls the Impact an 'Easy Load' which is good.    You get a lot out of every watt put in.    But the measured sensitivity is over 6db (a lot) lower than the spec......

We come from different places.    You mention effects and such several times.    Keep in mind that in movies NOBODY knows what it is supposed to actually sound like.    A canon shot?   
A jet zooming overhead.   A building tumbling down.      I've gotten lucky.   My sub is VERY musical and yet when the dinosaur walks, the pictures on the wall vibrate in unison.   

I pretty much agree with what you've taken the time to write out. Thank you! Has been a pleasure engaging you Leonski. 

I have no doubt that upping the cross over from 80hz to 120 has contributed to localizing the left side. I think you're spot on. I'd rather add a second 4-10 to the right side however than to lower the 4-10 to 80hz. 

I'm pretty sure you are aware but the review you posted was for the "monitor" Tektons. Here's an actual review of the Ulfberhts. I haven't been able to find the nice graphs etc on the Ulfs: hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-ulfberht-floorstanding-speaker-reviewed/

We come from different places. You mention effects and such several times. Keep in mind that in movies NOBODY knows what it is supposed to actually sound like. A canon shot?

A jet zooming overhead. A building tumbling down. I've gotten lucky. My sub is VERY musical and yet when the dinosaur walks, the pictures on the wall vibrate in unison.

Except those of us which have experienced jets flying over the combat field while bullets whizzing past and buildings being leveled 

Having said that can't wait to see Top Gun 2 this year. 

[leonski]

I have VERY mixed feelings about reviews. Unless I know the reviewer in relation to what I value, I have trouble getting much out of 'em except they like whatever they are currently listening to.
If you find a reviewer with which you substantially AGREE or DISAGREE that gives you more to go on and possibly WHY.

The best part of stereophile reviews for ME is the mesured data. The characterization of the Tekton 'monitor' as easy to drive is a good thing but I'm offput by the sensitivity mismatch.

Tekton calls out sensitivity at a voltage which is 1 watt at 8 ohms. That's 2 watts at 4 ohms so the sensitivity is 1/2 that listed or 3db LESS.

I used to live near ElToro MCAS. And heard plenty of F4s taking off. Which I'm sure you know MUST by regulations use afterburners at that time. The noise / sound was incredible and you could hear it
echo off the nearby hills. And for 4 or 5 minutes AFTER they took off.

My point is that the sound in a movie is generally an 'Effect' not a mirror of reality. So nobody really knows what most of that stuff is supposed to sound like. Did you ever experience the movie SeaBiscuit? They got an OSCAR Nomination for sound and
deserved it. the racing scene where ALL you heard was the horses heartbeat was simply incredible.

Enjoy.......I just heard the ORIGINAL ForBidden Planet. (1956?) The effects and 'sonic art' in this movie set the pace for a generation. I HOPE they won a sound or music Oscar.

[Deleted]

Jan 28, 2020 1:10:41 GMT -5 leonski said:

I have VERY mixed feelings about reviews. Unless I know the reviewer in relation to what I value, I have trouble getting much out of 'em except they like whatever they are currently listening to.
If you find a reviewer with which you substantially AGREE or DISAGREE that gives you more to go on and possibly WHY.

The best part of stereophile reviews for ME is the mesured data. The characterization of the Tekton 'monitor' as easy to drive is a good thing but I'm offput by the sensitivity mismatch.

Tekton calls out sensitivity at a voltage which is 1 watt at 8 ohms. That's 2 watts at 4 ohms so the sensitivity is 1/2 that listed or 3db LESS.

I used to live near ElToro MCAS. And heard plenty of F4s taking off. Which I'm sure you know MUST by regulations use afterburners at that time. The noise / sound was incredible and you could hear it
echo off the nearby hills. And for 4 or 5 minutes AFTER they took off.

My point is that the sound in a movie is generally an 'Effect' not a mirror of reality. So nobody really knows what most of that stuff is supposed to sound like. Did you ever experience the movie SeaBiscuit? They got an OSCAR Nomination for sound and
deserved it. the racing scene where ALL you heard was the horses heartbeat was simply incredible.

Enjoy.......I just heard the ORIGINAL ForBidden Planet. (1956?) The effects and 'sonic art' in this movie set the pace for a generation. I HOPE they won a sound or music Oscar.

Now you're talking!!! The F-4s were my most favorite plane while growing up. I went into the USAF and served while tasked as an F-16 Crew Chief. The 363rd Fighter Squadron was a former F-4 Wild Weasel base now night time Recon F-16s. In my later years of duty Myrtle beach S.C. closed down and we received the A-10 squadrons. That's when overhead aircraft blasting a 30mm canon was experienced. 

I have seen SeaBiscuit but because of what you just posted I'll review. That's a movie my wife would enjoy viewing with me. 

I don't really have a lot of movies that stick out particularly for sound though Black Hawk Down during the "Irene" scene supposed has 13hz to reproduce the overhead whirls of the blackhawks. I do spend a lot of time in front of Amazon's Quello subscription or Blue - Ray of concerts purchased. 

Enjoy,
Shim

[leonski]

Friend of mine was a driver for F-4 when in WW configuration. He was later a commercial pilot and is now some kind of corporate.
He's the one that told me about necessity for afterburner on F4 takeoff.

Want some noise? I was at AirSpace America airshow down at Brown Field (you've seen this field in move 12 O'Clock High) when the Condorde paid a visit.
Upon returning from a run, some IDIOT ran out on the runway and the plane had to do a flyby......maybe, MAYBE 100 ft up and at power. Now THAT was loud.
Maybe even louder than a Harrier in hover. Aircraft was in 'nose down' configuration and looked like a metalic anteater.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air/Space_America_88

The AN124 was very impressive, too, with Soviet turbofans making a slightliy different noise they their western equals.

[gzubeck]

Jan 27, 2020 14:04:01 GMT -5 leonski said:

Aimlessly 'improving' stuff is not the way to go. System goals will help you see thru the fog of 'too much stuff'. And unless you need an audiologist to help with hearing problems, MORE power probably isn't going to get you there.

What are you kidding me...if it wasn't for upgradeitus the audio industry would be in the toilet! :>)

[gzubeck]

Jan 27, 2020 14:49:31 GMT -5 leonski said:

Will you like the Mac House Sound? You should have some idea before you plunk down THAT kind of coin. Apples and Oranges? Maybe not even that close.

Right now, your 'goals' such as they are center on 'stuff' rather than the sound. Me? I'd start with a Source First approach and
find out if the Onkyo was the bottleneck.

I'm not even going to get into subwoofers, number and setup. My very oddly shaped room is quite good with a single sub, after positioning experiments to find
THE best place for it. Very musical AND plenty of slam for movies as well as producing sub-20hz output of pipe organs.......For the few tunes written which call for such.

Man, if I had the dosh in hand I would be plunking down some money on their super powerful high end amps. They would simply whip your speakers into visceral compliance. Since I don't I'm into plinking vs. Plunking at the moment. :>)

[Deleted]

Feb 20, 2020 0:51:42 GMT -5 gzubeck said:

Jan 27, 2020 14:49:31 GMT -5 leonski said:

Will you like the Mac House Sound? You should have some idea before you plunk down THAT kind of coin. Apples and Oranges? Maybe not even that close.

Right now, your 'goals' such as they are center on 'stuff' rather than the sound. Me? I'd start with a Source First approach and
find out if the Onkyo was the bottleneck.

I'm not even going to get into subwoofers, number and setup. My very oddly shaped room is quite good with a single sub, after positioning experiments to find
THE best place for it. Very musical AND plenty of slam for movies as well as producing sub-20hz output of pipe organs.......For the few tunes written which call for such.

Man, if I had the dosh in hand I would be plunking down some money on their super powerful high end amps. They would simply whip your speakers into visceral compliance. Since I don't I'm into plinking vs. Plunking at the moment. :>)

I imagine that is so and surely will visit the McIntosh dealer one day. Question, given it is impossible for me to bring my speakers along how best to demo amplifiers? Someone recommended that I use headphones. I never thought about doing that and didn't even know whether the headphone jack would share the same circuitry? Just curious if anyone has an recommendation on how to best demo one amp over another in contrast to what I already have? 

[leonski]

You ask a REAL good question. If the store sell your speakers, that might make things easier. But right out of left field? I got nothin'.

Can you arrange an in-home Demo of some sort? Borrow the store copy of the amp and leave everybit of plastic you own as collateral?