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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 17, 2020 18:45:33 GMT -5
Hi Gary Cook - First - on Emotiva's product page, right now, the PA-1 is $299. I'm assuming it's a USA only price? Second - Yes there is a WORLD of difference between specifications (and price) between the XPA-1, Gen. 2. Every difference you noted is accurate. However... The PA-1's distortion figure is for full output. NOBODY plays at that level unless you're trying to power a football stadium rock concert. Normal listening level (for most) is ONE WATT or less. Fact. Third - As to sound quality, garbulky (whose ears I trust) listened to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 system with the PA-1s as replacements. His comment was that they were very close in sound with the XPA-1s being superior in some aspects, but the PA-1s winning in others. He ultimately kept his XPA-1 amps, but said it was in no way a runaway. Fourth - You may have heard a LOT of amps with B&O modules, but if you haven't heard the PA-1s, then you are just speculating with absolutely no basis. Mr. Lauffman stated to me that it was his opinion that the PA-1's modules were the first Class-Ds he'd heard that he considered "audiophile" quality. And I suspect he's heard a lot more amps than you and I combined? Fifth - I agree with you wholeheartedly that how the amp SOUNDS is the only significant factor (provided you aren't limited by pricing). I love my PA-1 amps based on their sound - not their size, weight, efficiency, or price. I suspect that if you ever hear them, you'll agree. Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by rbk123 on Apr 17, 2020 19:15:14 GMT -5
Third - As to sound quality, garbulky (whose ears I trust) listened to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 system with the PA-1s as replacements. His comment was that they were very close in sound with the XPA-1s being superior in some aspects, but the PA-1s winning in others. He ultimately kept his XPA-1 amps, but said it was in no way a runaway. Garbulky has said this about every other amp in Emotiva's line-up. From the UPA's, to the XPR's, to the BASx's. Hardly noteworthy. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 17, 2020 20:30:46 GMT -5
Hi Gary Cook - First - on Emotiva's product page, right now, the PA-1 is $299. I'm assuming it's a USA only price? Second - Yes there is a WORLD of difference between specifications (and price) between the XPA-1, Gen. 2. Every difference you noted is accurate. However... The PA-1's distortion figure is for full output. NOBODY plays at that level unless you're trying to power a football stadium rock concert. Normal listening level (for most) is ONE WATT or less. Fact. Third - As to sound quality, garbulky (whose ears I trust) listened to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 system with the PA-1s as replacements. His comment was that they were very close in sound with the XPA-1s being superior in some aspects, but the PA-1s winning in others. He ultimately kept his XPA-1 amps, but said it was in no way a runaway. Fourth - You may have heard a LOT of amps with B&O modules, but if you haven't heard the PA-1s, then you are just speculating with absolutely no basis. Mr. Lauffman stated to me that it was his opinion that the PA-1's modules were the first Class-Ds he'd heard that he considered "audiophile" quality. And I suspect he's heard a lot more amps than you and I combined? Fifth - I agree with you wholeheartedly that how the amp SOUNDS is the only significant factor (provided you aren't limited by pricing). I love my PA-1 amps based on their sound - not their size, weight, efficiency, or price. I suspect that if you ever hear them, you'll agree. Cordially - Boomzilla Not disagreeing with your views, mine just happen to be different. It would be interesting to find out what differences, if any, there are between the B&O ICEPower ASC300 modules sold under various brand names. From my limited knowledge of their circuitry there doesn’t seem much opportunity for them to be voiced differently to align with a particular engineering preference, sound wise. Noting that Dan did say that there is no Emotiva circuitry whatsoever in the PA-1’s. I’ve owned (each for some time) 9 different Emotiva power amps and to my ears they have a family sound, there are differences but they all have more in common than not. I did read your review on the PA-1’s back in February and I found myself nodding at some of your observations which I had noted with other B&O modules. Such as, they are temperature sensitive, they don’t like low impedance loads and they are susceptible to earth loop hum. I would add another, for music 135 watts is plenty, more than enough, but for movie sound tracks I caught them out a few times with loud sound effects (which, in comparison, the XPA-1L’s handle easily). Which for me rules them out, as my L&R have to perform both stereo 2.1 and home theatre duties. No right or wrong, just different requirements listening with different ears. Cheers Gary |
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Post by vcautokid on Apr 17, 2020 21:31:55 GMT -5
With the ever growing number of channels and installation constraints and more, Class D is coming into its it's own. I am not beholden to any one or another topology. Just the one that works for me. Could care less if it floats anyone else's boat. I still use my Crown XLS-1002 in my bedroom with my Elac 6.2 debut, and they do well together. I just plain do not have room for a traditional design anymore. You pick and pays your money and play your tunes and movies. Someone said "the only one who needs to be impressed with your system is you!" Solid advice. Now if someone gets me say even the UPA-1 monos or XPA-1L, I could just make them fit.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 18, 2020 7:49:10 GMT -5
Third - As to sound quality, garbulky (whose ears I trust) listened to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 system with the PA-1s as replacements. His comment was that they were very close in sound with the XPA-1s being superior in some aspects, but the PA-1s winning in others. He ultimately kept his XPA-1 amps, but said it was in no way a runaway. Garbulky has said this about every other amp in Emotiva's line-up. From the UPA's, to the XPR's, to the BASx's. Hardly noteworthy. Whoops, I typed a long post just to realize I had essentially typed it before in this thread! Long story short: though I've liked (almost) every Emotiva amp, the PA-1 and the XPA-1 gen 2 occupy the top slot for me. The XPA-2 gen 2 is of course an honorary mention, but it's so similar to the XPA-1 gen 2 that I don't really consider it when rating amps. The PA-1 and the XPA-1 gen 2 sound slightly different enough to consider them as both being great amps in their own right as the best I've heard. The other amps I've heard don't really match up to these imo. Well...except for B'zilla's heavily modified monoblock heathkit tube amps. Oh and the XPR-1 may also but I haven't properly had time to assess it. |
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Post by rbk123 on Apr 18, 2020 10:39:58 GMT -5
Pavlov would be proud.
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Lsc
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 3,435
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Post by Lsc on Apr 18, 2020 11:33:32 GMT -5
The XPA2 gen2 was a total flop to me. It was not as refined as I would have hoped. However, I still thought for the price point it was a very good value.
Same with the XPA5 gen 1, the amp that got me started with Emotiva. Great value but lots of hiss and lacked that top line refinement.
My XPR2 & my old XPR5 was far superior. I had the XPR2 and the XPA2 at the same time and it wasn’t close.
My buddy did an in home trial with the Parasound A31 but kept his XPR2- said the Parasound was inferior.
I think everyone has different scales. What is a huge difference for me, well for my bros who don’t care about this stuff, it sounds the same. So, if you can’t hear the difference then it’s ok - you just saved yourself a lot of money. Enjoy your gear.
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Post by novisnick on Apr 18, 2020 12:24:40 GMT -5
Garbulky has said this about every other amp in Emotiva's line-up. From the UPA's, to the XPR's, to the BASx's. Hardly noteworthy. Whoops, I typed a long post just to realize I had essentially typed it before in this thread! Long story short: though I've liked (almost) every Emotiva amp, the PA-1 and the XPA-1 gen 2 occupy the top slot for me. The XPA-2 gen 2 is of course an honorary mention, but it's so similar to the XPA-1 gen 2 that I don't really consider it when rating amps. The PA-1 and the XPA-1 gen 2 sound slightly different enough to consider them as both being great amps in their own right as the best I've heard. The other amps I've heard don't really match up to these imo. Well...except for B'zilla's heavily modified monoblock heathkit tube amps. Oh and the XPR-1 may also but I haven't properly had time to assess it. Your invitation is always open to spend more time with the XPR-1’s garbulky , lunch and or dinner included. 🎶😁🎶 |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 18, 2020 17:57:18 GMT -5
Same with the XPA5 gen 1, the amp that got me started with Emotiva. Great value but lots of hiss and lacked that top line refinement. I still have and use daily my XPA-5 Gen 1 and it has no hiss, none whatsoever and never has. I have had it connected with XLR cables since I installed the XPA-1L's and there is zero, zilch, no induced or internally generated noise whatsoever. Maybe I'm just lucky. Cheers Gary |
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
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Post by Lsc on Apr 18, 2020 19:51:55 GMT -5
Same with the XPA5 gen 1, the amp that got me started with Emotiva. Great value but lots of hiss and lacked that top line refinement. I still have and use daily my XPA-5 Gen 1 and it has no hiss, none whatsoever and never has. I have had it connected with XLR cables since I installed the XPA-1L's and there is zero, zilch, no induced or internally generated noise whatsoever. Maybe I'm just lucky. Cheers Gary I think Its the high gain on the XPA-5 gen 1. Also I only had an Onkyo receiver and used RCA cables and had Klipsch Forte II as my mains and that’s probably what contributed to the hiss. If it works for you and the fact that it still works is a testament. That XPA5 was the only Emotiva amp that sizzled on me as one of the channels blew. So for me, it was a mixed experience but it was what got me into Emotiva gear. |
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Post by sahmen on Apr 18, 2020 21:43:49 GMT -5
I've also been using an XPA 5 gen 1, that I purchased used nearly 7 years ago, and it has never hissed or glitched on me at all, at least not yet. Of course ever since I got into monoblocks for my two fronts, which happened about 4-5 years ago, the XPA-5 drives only my center and surround speakers, which is not that often as the two monoblocks driving the front speakers tend to get more of the action in my HT than other connected amps (I do not use the HT itself for movies as often as I ideally should, because of not wanting to disturb my neighbors), but listening to music with the monoblocks and my two front speakers is different, because that is less egregiously loud).
Still, I used the XPA-5 to drive my 2 fronts for about two years before going to the monoblocks, and it never gave me any problems to worry about. I guess you could say I lucked out, as it is still firing on all cylinders, and is all I need for the center/surround duties it is currently serving.
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Post by creimes on Apr 19, 2020 3:13:12 GMT -5
Hi Gary Cook - First - on Emotiva's product page, right now, the PA-1 is $299. I'm assuming it's a USA only price? Second - Yes there is a WORLD of difference between specifications (and price) between the XPA-1, Gen. 2. Every difference you noted is accurate. However... The PA-1's distortion figure is for full output. NOBODY plays at that level unless you're trying to power a football stadium rock concert. Normal listening level (for most) is ONE WATT or less. Fact. Third - As to sound quality, garbulky (whose ears I trust) listened to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 system with the PA-1s as replacements. His comment was that they were very close in sound with the XPA-1s being superior in some aspects, but the PA-1s winning in others. He ultimately kept his XPA-1 amps, but said it was in no way a runaway. Fourth - You may have heard a LOT of amps with B&O modules, but if you haven't heard the PA-1s, then you are just speculating with absolutely no basis. Mr. Lauffman stated to me that it was his opinion that the PA-1's modules were the first Class-Ds he'd heard that he considered "audiophile" quality. And I suspect he's heard a lot more amps than you and I combined? Fifth - I agree with you wholeheartedly that how the amp SOUNDS is the only significant factor (provided you aren't limited by pricing). I love my PA-1 amps based on their sound - not their size, weight, efficiency, or price. I suspect that if you ever hear them, you'll agree. Cordially - Boomzilla Not disagreeing with your views, mine just happen to be different. It would be interesting to find out what differences, if any, there are between the B&O ICEPower ASC300 modules sold under various brand names. From my limited knowledge of their circuitry there doesn’t seem much opportunity for them to be voiced differently to align with a particular engineering preference, sound wise. Noting that Dan did say that there is no Emotiva circuitry whatsoever in the PA-1’s. I’ve owned (each for some time) 9 different Emotiva power amps and to my ears they have a family sound, there are differences but they all have more in common than not. I did read your review on the PA-1’s back in February and I found myself nodding at some of your observations which I had noted with other B&O modules. Such as, they are temperature sensitive, they don’t like low impedance loads and they are susceptible to earth loop hum. I would add another, for music 135 watts is plenty, more than enough, but for movie sound tracks I caught them out a few times with loud sound effects (which, in comparison, the XPA-1L’s handle easily). Which for me rules them out, as my L&R have to perform both stereo 2.1 and home theatre duties. No right or wrong, just different requirements listening with different ears. Cheers Gary I'm currently using the D-Sonic M2-750-3 for my three T1 towers and I'm amazed at the sound of this amp, it has the B&O Ice modules, not sure of the exact model but they are 250 per channel at 8ohms and double that into 4ohms. I had three PA-1 amps for a little bit and they sounded wonderful as well but when I really want to crank it up I found them lacking for the T1, maybe I'm just crazy haha but this D-Sonic has plenty of power to get me where I want, I know it's really only about double the PA-1 but to my ears I can notice it when I wanna crank it up. I currently have a Outlaw Model 7000X in house right now as well and I have tried to A/B but I'm not certain I can hear a difference, if anything a bit more dynamic with the D-Sonic whether that is just a tad cleaner and tighter sounding I'm not one for big words just know what I hear and how I like it to sound and the D-Sonic is fantastic I must say. Cheers, Chad P.S. Don't mind the Mach 5 IXL-18's sitting dormant hahaha  |
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Post by leonski on Apr 19, 2020 12:51:34 GMT -5
Your B&W speakers are not the easiest load. Direct compare between amps is the ONLY way to tell and on your system.
Careful level match is also required. The louder amp will tend to sound better in such A/B testing.
Once this blows over and life gets back to whatever the New Normal happens to be, you may revisit this.
And GARY? You crack me up sometimes. You don't buy amps based on size / weight / efficiency / and all the rest but DO buy with wacky stuff like 'Differential' and 'Fully Balanced' as considerations.
Not that I entirely disagree with you about 'D' amps. I owned ICE amps for a couple years and eventually found the highs less than satisfying. And while 'D' amps ARE improving, (for Mr. Recovering, above(
it is also true that the HF hash and output Zobel will be with us for a long time to come. Thus no FUNDAMENTAL change but rather Refinement. It'll be a while before I revisit 'D' amps. In the meantime?
For a HT setup with distributed amplification? I don't see ANY reason not to get people to at least audition the PA-1 The possibilities here are really neat.
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Post by creimes on Apr 19, 2020 13:39:20 GMT -5
Your B&W speakers are not the easiest load. Direct compare between amps is the ONLY way to tell and on your system. Careful level match is also required. The louder amp will tend to sound better in such A/B testing. Once this blows over and life gets back to whatever the New Normal happens to be, you may revisit this. And GARY? You crack me up sometimes. You don't buy amps based on size / weight / efficiency / and all the rest but DO buy with wacky stuff like 'Differential' and 'Fully Balanced' as considerations. Not that I entirely disagree with you about 'D' amps. I owned ICE amps for a couple years and eventually found the highs less than satisfying. And while 'D' amps ARE improving, (for Mr. Recovering, above( it is also true that the HF hash and output Zobel will be with us for a long time to come. Thus no FUNDAMENTAL change but rather Refinement. It'll be a while before I revisit 'D' amps. In the meantime? For a HT setup with distributed amplification? I don't see ANY reason not to get people to at least audition the PA-1 The possibilities here are really neat. Could be our ears and system mesh in play but the D-Sonic with the T1 is miles away from sounding harsh in any respect, my hearing is still very good and I can hear high frequencies quite well still. Of course just my experience here  Chad |
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Post by leonski on Apr 19, 2020 16:23:02 GMT -5
It was one of those deals where I heard the LACK rather than when it was 'there'.
I don't know how better to describe. Going to my Parasounds was an 'easing' of my mental load and a much nicer listening experience.
And from our FWIW department? My 'D' amp was 500x2@ 4ohms. Each Parasound is 200x2@4ohms.....with ONE such per speaker and will play louder more comfortably.
Magnepan is not an especially difficult load.
Some of what I noted MIGHT have been an 'interraction' effect. Tweeter section, from about 600hz UP on my panel (NOT RIBBON) is a couple inches wide and the height of the panel.
I heard what is called PICKET FENCING as I moved my head L/R. I think it was an interaction of the phase shift brought on by the Zobel and the width of the driver, which consists of
8 ribbons strips adhered to the substrate and about 2" or so WIDE. Maybe less? This is what Magnepan calls 'Quasi-Ribbon' in a real blast of marketing speak.
You might not notice what I did if your speaker has an approximation of a point source tweeter or even a Magnepan style REAL ribbon which is on the 3.X and ABOVE models.
I've found that as I listen to MORE stuff, I NOTICE more stuff. Does that make sense?
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Post by creimes on Apr 19, 2020 20:01:40 GMT -5
It was one of those deals where I heard the LACK rather than when it was 'there'. I don't know how better to describe. Going to my Parasounds was an 'easing' of my mental load and a much nicer listening experience. And from our FWIW department? My 'D' amp was 500x2@ 4ohms. Each Parasound is 200x2@4ohms.....with ONE such per speaker and will play louder more comfortably. Magnepan is not an especially difficult load. Some of what I noted MIGHT have been an 'interraction' effect. Tweeter section, from about 600hz UP on my panel (NOT RIBBON) is a couple inches wide and the height of the panel. I heard what is called PICKET FENCING as I moved my head L/R. I think it was an interaction of the phase shift brought on by the Zobel and the width of the driver, which consists of 8 ribbons strips adhered to the substrate and about 2" or so WIDE. Maybe less? This is what Magnepan calls 'Quasi-Ribbon' in a real blast of marketing speak. You might not notice what I did if your speaker has an approximation of a point source tweeter or even a Magnepan style REAL ribbon which is on the 3.X and ABOVE models. I've found that as I listen to MORE stuff, I NOTICE more stuff. Does that make sense? Yeah I agree, I find with all this it is a synergy thing for sure and what we prefer in regards to that, heck most people I know would most likely prefer a basic receiver cranked up putting out tons of distortion because they are both used to that and think it's actually louder when if fact it isn't they just perceive it that way lol. Chad |
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Post by rbk123 on Apr 19, 2020 21:13:39 GMT -5
I think Its the high gain on the XPA-5 gen 1. Also I only had an Onkyo receiver and used RCA cables and had Klipsch Forte II as my mains and that’s probably what contributed to the hiss. If it works for you and the fact that it still works is a testament. That XPA5 was the only Emotiva amp that sizzled on me as one of the channels blew. So for me, it was a mixed experience but it was what got me into Emotiva gear. My experience is somewhat similar to yours. I have an XPA-5 G1 that has an odd hiss that starts then goes away that I was just mentioning to Geebo. When the XPA-5 first turns on, the hiss starts softly, steadily increasing in volume (not a huge amount) for about 2-3 seconds and then abruptly halts. Like the amp is charging up. When I turn it off, it does the same but in reverse - hiss comes on loudest, then decreases for about 2-3 seconds, then stops completely. Like it just released it's charge. When the amp is on and the hiss is gone, I get a small amount of hum which is only audible when your ear is to the speaker. If the XMC-1 is on, the hum is a little louder than if it's off (while the XPA-5 remains on). The hum is inaudible when listening to anything - movie/music/TV/whatever as it's not very loud All of this happens with either un-balanced or XLR inputs and happens in all 5 channels. I have 2 XPA-1L's and 2 XPA-100's also hooked up and they are pretty close to dead silent, so it's just something about my -5. Doesn't bother me though since it's inaudible in even quiet passages of movies or music, so I'm pretty meh with it. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 20, 2020 1:27:07 GMT -5
And GARY? You crack me up sometimes. You don't buy amps based on size / weight / efficiency / and all the rest but DO buy with wacky stuff like 'Differential' and 'Fully Balanced' as considerations. I’m glad that I contribute in a small way to your amusement. To me it’s actually pretty simple, size/weight/ efficiency will NEVER make an amp sound better. Hence will NEVER appear on my list of things to look for in an amp. Whereas differential/fully balanced circuitry etc CAN make an amp sound better. Hence CAN appear on my list of things to look for in an amp. Having experienced the difference first hand with my own ears with the XPA-1L’s, it’s closer to DOES appear on my list. I’m up to about 4 generation of ICE power amps, a couple I have owned and a couple I have borrowed. From powering desktop speakers to 3 way floor standers. The fact that I haven’t kept any tells the story. Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on Apr 20, 2020 1:36:34 GMT -5
I'd PERSONALLY limit myself to audition and forget everything anyone in the marketing group had to say. I'd have to be able to move it myself, which probably omits some of the
earlier EMO monos from consideration at nearly 100lb shipping.....
I had briefly considered the 1L amps several years ago but was not in 'upgrade cycle' at that time. I wanted 4 of 'em for my panels.
ONE disqualifier was the amp was, IMO, TOO LIGHT for the 'A' power claim.
I have a chip amp out in the garage. All of about 30$ worth, connected to some no-name speakers. Perfect for noodling around in the garage.
My amp was an earlier ASP module version.
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Post by quattroll on Apr 20, 2020 13:30:58 GMT -5
Hi Lounge,
I just read through all of this thread and found it very interesting and timely. I have recently jumped on board the “D” train after trying the PA-1 and being really impressed.
I own the XPA-1Ls, and XPA-100s so I know the sound and have put in a lot of time with these amps. I have used these amps on Sonus Faber Toy Towers and Magnepan .7s. In my family room with the Toys, the 1Ls and 100s were close enough to not make much of a difference. The PA-1s however, though not as powerful on paper, really woke up the speakers. I would say it was a significant and highly recognizable change. I think it is the speed, low noise floor, and maybe more forward presentation which may counteract a somewhat laid back nature of these speakers. Now everything has a musical precision I am really enjoying. This ICEpower amp is really good for video applications where dialogue (5.1 and 2.1) is super clear and natural, and then when music comes in it is amazing. I’ve been watching a lot of YouTube lately and some of the audio reviewers are good examples (kudos AR!), where you have conversation and then abrupt jams. Every time I am blown away by these.
Now the 1Ls are awesome with the .7s. The 100s are not far behind, but at an enjoyable level the differences start to show through and you get more sparkle and separation of instruments, and more dimensionality. The PA-1 can’t play here.
Which leads me to a question. I understand the ASC300 ICEpower module is considered older? There are products with the ASX modules which are newer. I’m wondering if those are worth checking out. An example would be Peachtree Nova gear, 150, 300, and 500 watts available.
So I think we are back to the exact equipment and room characteristics that define the sound. My only problem now is that I have 3 100s and 1 200, that are too valuable to let go, but I’m not using!
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