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Post by leonski on Apr 20, 2020 14:12:43 GMT -5
First? Glad you are diggin' the PA-1 amps. They should be a good match for the Maggies, though I'd be tempted to go with the LRS....But that's just me.
As for ICE amp 'flavors'? I had teh ASP amps. These came in 3 power levels and had output voltage for UNPOWERED modules. Terrific for 2 or 3-way Powered Speakers.
All ICE amps have similar architecture. And are subject to the same limits. Unless they really messed with the voicing of the amp, I doubt that the NEW is that much 'better' than the older ones.
The improvements might be from the manufacturer side. Less expense and higher reliability would be neat. The line is diverse enough now that I've completely lost track of the ORDER of introduction.
I know my ASP stuff was VERY early in the game......But also don't forget that ICE Power has only been around for 25 or maybe 30 years.
I've had a good chat with Bruno P. the originator of HYPEX and he has a few significant things to say and DIFFERENCES from the ICE approach. I like his stuff.
Personally, Quattroll? I'd dump the stuff I wasn't using while it still has some resale value. Turn it into a high-end TV display, like an OLED? Or a computer music server? Those amps might be worth a bundle to YOU, but
you should check the market. I'll bet it's not as robust as you'd hope. I'd go so far as to wager that the 100s fall flat when PUSHED running your panels. They are very low sensitivity and while not a difficult load, DO demand lots of good power.
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Post by creimes on Apr 20, 2020 15:22:33 GMT -5
Hi Lounge, I just read through all of this thread and found it very interesting and timely. I have recently jumped on board the “D” train after trying the PA-1 and being really impressed. I own the XPA-1Ls, and XPA-100s so I know the sound and have put in a lot of time with these amps. I have used these amps on Sonus Faber Toy Towers and Magnepan .7s. In my family room with the Toys, the 1Ls and 100s were close enough to not make much of a difference. The PA-1s however, though not as powerful on paper, really woke up the speakers. I would say it was a significant and highly recognizable change. I think it is the speed, low noise floor, and maybe more forward presentation which may counteract a somewhat laid back nature of these speakers. Now everything has a musical precision I am really enjoying. This ICEpower amp is really good for video applications where dialogue (5.1 and 2.1) is super clear and natural, and then when music comes in it is amazing. I’ve been watching a lot of YouTube lately and some of the audio reviewers are good examples (kudos AR!), where you have conversation and then abrupt jams. Every time I am blown away by these. Now the 1Ls are awesome with the .7s. The 100s are not far behind, but at an enjoyable level the differences start to show through and you get more sparkle and separation of instruments, and more dimensionality. The PA-1 can’t play here. Which leads me to a question. I understand the ASC300 ICEpower module is considered older? There are products with the ASX modules which are newer. I’m wondering if those are worth checking out. An example would be Peachtree Nova gear, 150, 300, and 500 watts available. So I think we are back to the exact equipment and room characteristics that define the sound. My only problem now is that I have 3 100s and 1 200, that are too valuable to let go, but I’m not using! First hand experience owning 3 PA-1's and now a D-Sonic M2-750-3 I find the higher powered modules in the D-Sonic play better at higher volumes on my T1's, the D-Sonic has the B&O 500ASP Modules in it which are 500 watts at 4ohms at 0.003 THD, I'm sure I will get naysayers from my findings but it is what I have personally found in my room with my gear. If you like the PA-1's then I say look for something with the 500ASP or 1000ASP B&O modules. Cheers, Chad |
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Post by quattroll on Apr 20, 2020 16:41:35 GMT -5
Thanks Chad, that's definitely an option. I am wondering, does anyone know of more powerful options than the PA-1s, which aren't $1,500 for a stereo setup, mono or not?
I have had a hard time finding amps online, maybe I'm not searching right. If we could start a list, I'd love that!
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Post by creimes on Apr 20, 2020 22:52:40 GMT -5
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Post by leonski on Apr 21, 2020 1:43:00 GMT -5
Hi Lounge, I just read through all of this thread and found it very interesting and timely. I have recently jumped on board the “D” train after trying the PA-1 and being really impressed. I own the XPA-1Ls, and XPA-100s so I know the sound and have put in a lot of time with these amps. I have used these amps on Sonus Faber Toy Towers and Magnepan .7s. In my family room with the Toys, the 1Ls and 100s were close enough to not make much of a difference. The PA-1s however, though not as powerful on paper, really woke up the speakers. I would say it was a significant and highly recognizable change. I think it is the speed, low noise floor, and maybe more forward presentation which may counteract a somewhat laid back nature of these speakers. Now everything has a musical precision I am really enjoying. This ICEpower amp is really good for video applications where dialogue (5.1 and 2.1) is super clear and natural, and then when music comes in it is amazing. I’ve been watching a lot of YouTube lately and some of the audio reviewers are good examples (kudos AR!), where you have conversation and then abrupt jams. Every time I am blown away by these. Now the 1Ls are awesome with the .7s. The 100s are not far behind, but at an enjoyable level the differences start to show through and you get more sparkle and separation of instruments, and more dimensionality. The PA-1 can’t play here. Which leads me to a question. I understand the ASC300 ICEpower module is considered older? There are products with the ASX modules which are newer. I’m wondering if those are worth checking out. An example would be Peachtree Nova gear, 150, 300, and 500 watts available. So I think we are back to the exact equipment and room characteristics that define the sound. My only problem now is that I have 3 100s and 1 200, that are too valuable to let go, but I’m not using! First hand experience owning 3 PA-1's and now a D-Sonic M2-750-3 I find the higher powered modules in the D-Sonic play better at higher volumes on my T1's, the D-Sonic has the B&O 500ASP Modules in it which are 500 watts at 4ohms at 0.003 THD, I'm sure I will get naysayers from my findings but it is what I have personally found in my room with my gear. If you like the PA-1's then I say look for something with the 500ASP or 1000ASP B&O modules. Cheers, Chad My PSAudio GCC250 had a PAIR of the ASP500 modules. It was the middle of a 3 amp range. It featured 5 inputs, one of which was balanced AND had outputs which I used for a sub. I'm not going to beat people to death with my issues with 'D' amps, but will simply note I went back to an A/B amp with a linear PS and couldn't be happier. I think it plays louder NOW even with 'less' power. |
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Post by creimes on Apr 21, 2020 2:26:53 GMT -5
First hand experience owning 3 PA-1's and now a D-Sonic M2-750-3 I find the higher powered modules in the D-Sonic play better at higher volumes on my T1's, the D-Sonic has the B&O 500ASP Modules in it which are 500 watts at 4ohms at 0.003 THD, I'm sure I will get naysayers from my findings but it is what I have personally found in my room with my gear. If you like the PA-1's then I say look for something with the 500ASP or 1000ASP B&O modules. Cheers, Chad My PSAudio GCC250 had a PAIR of the ASP500 modules. It was the middle of a 3 amp range. It featured 5 inputs, one of which was balanced AND had outputs which I used for a sub. I'm not going to beat people to death with my issues with 'D' amps, but will simply note I went back to an A/B amp with a linear PS and couldn't be happier. I think it plays louder NOW even with 'less' power. So your saying Class D amps are no good for Maggies in general, I'm pretty sure klinemj uses Class D amps on his 1.7's and seems to enjoy them. Chad |
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klinemj
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Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Apr 21, 2020 5:10:23 GMT -5
My PSAudio GCC250 had a PAIR of the ASP500 modules. It was the middle of a 3 amp range. It featured 5 inputs, one of which was balanced AND had outputs which I used for a sub. I'm not going to beat people to death with my issues with 'D' amps, but will simply note I went back to an A/B amp with a linear PS and couldn't be happier. I think it plays louder NOW even with 'less' power. So your saying Class D amps are no good for Maggies in general, I'm pretty sure klinemj uses Class D amps on his 1.7's and seems to enjoy them. Chad I do and love them (but mostly use my tube amp in 2 channel now), but...not all Class D are created equal! Mark |
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Apr 21, 2020 6:15:02 GMT -5
So your saying Class D amps are no good for Maggies in general, I'm pretty sure klinemj uses Class D amps on his 1.7's and seems to enjoy them. Chad I do and love them (but mostly use my tube amp in 2 channel now), but...not all Class D are created equal! Mark I believe there was a time Class D was considered inadequate for Magnepans and it was even mentioned on the Magnepan website. However, in speaking with a gentleman from Magnepan, a gentleman whose name I have forgotten, said that he has heard a number of more recent Class D amps that sound very good with Maggies. In particular he liked Bel Canto amps with Maggies. |
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Post by creimes on Apr 21, 2020 11:08:52 GMT -5
So your saying Class D amps are no good for Maggies in general, I'm pretty sure klinemj uses Class D amps on his 1.7's and seems to enjoy them. Chad I do and love them (but mostly use my tube amp in 2 channel now), but...not all Class D are created equal! Mark It looks like quattroll may be looking for something with more power than the PA-1 but not wanting to spend a fortune, used is prob the best way to go as it seems like most options are fairly pricey. Chad |
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Post by leonski on Apr 21, 2020 12:09:54 GMT -5
My PSAudio GCC250 had a PAIR of the ASP500 modules. It was the middle of a 3 amp range. It featured 5 inputs, one of which was balanced AND had outputs which I used for a sub. I'm not going to beat people to death with my issues with 'D' amps, but will simply note I went back to an A/B amp with a linear PS and couldn't be happier. I think it plays louder NOW even with 'less' power. So your saying Class D amps are no good for Maggies in general, I'm pretty sure klinemj uses Class D amps on his 1.7's and seems to enjoy them. Chad Didn't work for ME. You may enjoy them. Many successful 'D' amp installations out there. Just not in MY house! No general rule to be implied from what I said. Try it yourself and let us know. What I began to hear was offputting and pretty much sealed their (d amp) fate. |
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Post by quattroll on Apr 21, 2020 12:29:31 GMT -5
Thanks Chad, that's a useful option. I have heard of Ghent, need to do a little research. Just want to make sure I'm getting real stuff. There seems to be knock off Chinese supplied stuff that is suspect.
Also, I should have posted more detail about using the PA-1s on my .7s. I only did this for a short time because I sensed distortion, at least I thought so, and I didn't have it playing that loud. I even suspected damage for a quick moment after switching back and checked my fuses. Interesting how the Maggies will play without the fuses, albeit strangely. No worries now though. I'll probably try this again just to see what was going on. It's possible that there was more high frequency action than I am used to and my not old, but somewhat ripened hearing reads that as a little scratchy. We will see.
I am very satisfied with the 1Ls on them, so I'll just keep going with that until they break. But, I did just send one in and got it fixed promptly by Emotiva. There was simply a weak solder joint from manufacturing at the speaker output. They went ahead and swapped some caps and things too, so that is cool. I don't really bother with the class A switches as I like the sound anyway and want to stay away from the heat.
The 1Ls just really have the grunt for these maggies, that 500wpc must be real.
The PA-1s are a really nice match with my Sonus Fabers, as I have said and I'm not lacking for SPLs in a 20' by 20' (8' ceiling) room with open floorpan on the left side. The SF Toy Towers are 3 way, 89db. So anything resembling these will probably do great with the PA-1s (at least in this size room). What is really captivating me here is their ability to play music and movies so well. Usually I think we have to have a slight compromise to focus on one or the other, but not here. I think the speed and damping really bring the well mixed movies to life, so dynamic.
It's a great time to play with my gear. Incidentally, I have been waiting something like a month for a Nagoaka cartridge, as my old Sumiko Pearl was damaged. Maybe later today I will get it!
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Post by creimes on Apr 21, 2020 16:16:33 GMT -5
Thanks Chad, that's a useful option. I have heard of Ghent, need to do a little research. Just want to make sure I'm getting real stuff. There seems to be knock off Chinese supplied stuff that is suspect. Also, I should have posted more detail about using the PA-1s on my .7s. I only did this for a short time because I sensed distortion, at least I thought so, and I didn't have it playing that loud. I even suspected damage for a quick moment after switching back and checked my fuses. Interesting how the Maggies will play without the fuses, albeit strangely. No worries now though. I'll probably try this again just to see what was going on. It's possible that there was more high frequency action than I am used to and my not old, but somewhat ripened hearing reads that as a little scratchy. We will see. I am very satisfied with the 1Ls on them, so I'll just keep going with that until they break. But, I did just send one in and got it fixed promptly by Emotiva. There was simply a weak solder joint from manufacturing at the speaker output. They went ahead and swapped some caps and things too, so that is cool. I don't really bother with the class A switches as I like the sound anyway and want to stay away from the heat. The 1Ls just really have the grunt for these maggies, that 500wpc must be real. The PA-1s are a really nice match with my Sonus Fabers, as I have said and I'm not lacking for SPLs in a 20' by 20' (8' ceiling) room with open floorpan on the left side. The SF Toy Towers are 3 way, 89db. So anything resembling these will probably do great with the PA-1s (at least in this size room). What is really captivating me here is their ability to play music and movies so well. Usually I think we have to have a slight compromise to focus on one or the other, but not here. I think the speed and damping really bring the well mixed movies to life, so dynamic. It's a great time to play with my gear. Incidentally, I have been waiting something like a month for a Nagoaka cartridge, as my old Sumiko Pearl was damaged. Maybe later today I will get it! Great to hear you have all those nice amps, I had some 1L's at one point as well when I had Monitor Audio RX6 towers, I went back and forth between my XMA-5 Gen 2 and couldn't hear any difference so I eventually sold them when I downsized my system at that time. It's a fun hobby to try different gear that's for sure but it can get very expensive haha, I would never nor have the money to buy something like my D-Sonic amp brand new, the current starting point of the 3 ch is like $2200 US which is like $3000 CAD lol way outta my budget. Chad |
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Post by leonski on Apr 21, 2020 16:31:26 GMT -5
having Expensive Stereo MAY be God's way of telling you that you have Too Much Money?
Just WAIT until you are retired and on a fixed income. I'd urge you to SAVE NOW for the future. Me? I have my eye on a new LENS for my camera. Too bad it is 'only' 2500$ and for that much, UnobTanium.
Being under House Arrest has cut my expenses somewhat, so while bills are going down, I'm not having ANY fun, either.
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Post by audiobill on Apr 21, 2020 18:35:43 GMT -5
The goal, of course, is to retire on an unlimited income, the younger the better!!!
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 21, 2020 18:39:56 GMT -5
having Expensive Stereo MAY be God's way of telling you that you have Too Much Money? Just WAIT until you are retired and on a fixed income. I'd urge you to SAVE NOW for the future. Me? I have my eye on a new LENS for my camera. Too bad it is 'only' 2500$ and for that much, UnobTanium. Being under House Arrest has cut my expenses somewhat, so while bills are going down, I'm not having ANY fun, either. Hence buy good gear now whilst there is income, especially the long life components, amps, speakers, TT's and analogue pre amps. My view is that anything digital has a short life so be prepared to replace regularly and look for value for money. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 21, 2020 18:40:24 GMT -5
The goal, of course, is to retire on an unlimited income, the younger the better!!! Too late  Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on Apr 21, 2020 19:17:03 GMT -5
Yes, Gary, you are correct.
But the 'glitch' is that value and Dollar Cost might have a different relationship for different people. I always aimed at the sweet spot. Which for ME was not the most $$$.
Even my 1970a Kenwood Integrated (KA7100) is still in service.
I gave away 3 or 4 Reel To Reel decks AND a small box of tapes.
My DAC is a Cambridge Audio model and I'm not about to swap THAT out.
I'd like a New LENS for my camera, where it seems the coorelation between $$ and Value is a little more settled for ME. But I can easily see differences between certain lenses which have similar
focal lengths when I look at the results.
The idea is that IF YOU ARE of 'that' age, you should be trying to put $$$ away for the future. I KNOW how expensive living is today. Everybody works, while when I was a kid, 'dad' took care of THAT.
Investing in a good retiremanet plan to maximize company match? Good forward looking funds? Good trusted advisor with a fiduciary responsibility? Keep in mind just how AWFUL the savings rate in this
country really is. The earlier you start, the better, a mistake I made but corrected MARGINALLY in time.
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Post by lhracing on Apr 22, 2020 21:40:51 GMT -5
I have a number of Emotiva amplifiers including the XPA-1 Gen 2 and XPA-1L Gen 2, both of which sound fantastic. I also have a JBL Synthesis SDA4600 class D amp (which is rebadged Crown DCi 4x600) and to my ears it is every bit as good as the Emotiva amplifiers. Granted all are driving different speakers so it may not be a fair comparison but I don't hear any harshness with the class D even with horns.
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Post by lhracing on Apr 22, 2020 21:44:00 GMT -5
I still have and use daily my XPA-5 Gen 1 and it has no hiss, none whatsoever and never has. I have had it connected with XLR cables since I installed the XPA-1L's and there is zero, zilch, no induced or internally generated noise whatsoever. Maybe I'm just lucky. Cheers Gary I think Its the high gain on the XPA-5 gen 1. Also I only had an Onkyo receiver and used RCA cables and had Klipsch Forte II as my mains and that’s probably what contributed to the hiss. If it works for you and the fact that it still works is a testament. That XPA5 was the only Emotiva amp that sizzled on me as one of the channels blew. So for me, it was a mixed experience but it was what got me into Emotiva gear. I too have a XPA-5 Gen 1 using the balanced inputs and it is absolutely silent, no hiss, no hum nothing. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 22, 2020 22:23:16 GMT -5
I recentlly heard a HISSSSS coming out of my RH speakers Tweeter section upon shutdown. When the amp relay clicked 'off', hiss went away.
I thought I had a bad output device, maybe, or a bad cap on the input end of THAT channel. All I could see was a repair bill I simply DIDN'T want.
So?
I swapped the single ended INPUT from A to B. I also took the JUMPER which want from A-Out to B-In. Replaced to B-Out to A-In. This is an
18" jumper made for me by BlueJeans Cable, using LC-1 cable from Belden.
Keep in mind these are Parasound amps.
I exercised the channel level pots without help, before doing anything else, but did confirm what was connectedd to WHERE.
HISSS went away. Go Figger. Other side WAS and continues to be, dead silent.
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