XMC1 and subwoofer integration for 2.1 stereo playback

[alastair123]

Hi all -

Happy user here of the xmc1 for 5.1 playback and stereo 2.0. It took me time to sort but I have recently gone through the full Dirac option and that’s been a game changer - what a difference!

I’ve done some searching around the forum but can’t find a fit for what I am looking for.

What I would like to do and ask advice for is- 

Has anyone here set up their xmc1 so they can integrate their single sub for stereo music 2.1 playback? Basically I want to utilise my sub for stereo music playback as well as HT, find the best way to integrate it and continue to make the most of Dirac.*

I currently see a couple of options;

1 I could set up the XMC1 so that the front speakers are set to small, they are currently set as large. Simply because they are large active ATC SCM100ASLs. The subwoofer is the ATC C6. I can try some crossovers, then run Dirac again. I then should have the sub active when using the Stereo preset, right?

2 I could keep the speakers set to large, leave the Dirac settings with the Emotiva as is. I could then add a miniDSP solution, like the DDRC-24. There are spare L & R main outs on the Emotiva which can connect to the DDRC-24. A single cable can then be output from the DDRC-24 to the spare input on the C6 sub.
I would then (I think) be able to use the DDRC-24 and Dirac that comes with it, to set the sub crossover and level etc. So the main speakers would run full with the Emotiva Dirac settings, the sub would then come in at the specified crossover care of the DDRC-24 and its Dirac settings.
I know this is not full sub 2.1 integration but I guess a bit like the high level set up you have with RELs, for example? 

I hope that made some sense... so has anyone got any ideas or experience they would like to share of 2.1 set ups with the XMC1, as per what I am trying to achieve - that is finding the best way to integrate my sub for stereo music as well as maintaining its current HT duties?

Thanks in advance!
Alastair

*A note on the sub. It only has one gain control, one set of crossover options from 50 to 2kHz, one contour/phase option and has L & R XLR inputs. So limited options for tweaking. At the moment I am just using the left input for LFE from the XMC1.

[KeithL]

Your first option is the one most people use - and the one I would recommend.

Calling that option "Small" is confusing to many people - and is a throwback to a time when speakers were either "big full range speakers" or "small satellite speakers".

Setting a speaker to "Small" is simply setting Bass Management to ON for that speaker.

Let me clarify a few things though.....

You want either the XMC-1 or the subwoofer doing bass management - but NOT both.

And the bass management on the XMC-1 is going to be better - or, at least, more well integrated with everything else.

Therefore you want to set the sub - once - than not fiddle with it.

- If the sub has a crossover control you want to set that to FLAT or to its highest frequency.

- If the sub has a phase control or switch you want to set that so you have the most bass at or around the crossover frequency.

   You want what sounds like the most bass - at your listening position.

   You will hear the MOST bass when the sub is in phase with your main speakers.

   It doesn't matter if there's too much bass, or even not enough - the room correction will take care of that.

- Once those are set, leave them alone, and don't touch them again.

Dirac calibrates each speaker separately - and independently of the Bass Management settings on the XMC-1.

(It doesn't even matter if each speaker is set to Small or Large when you run Dirac.)

So the next step is to run Dirac and let it calibrate each of your three speakers.

NOW....

Set your front speakers to Small (Bass Management ON).

And now you can pick a crossover for each front speaker that works the best in your room.

(Feel free to set the crossover as low as you like - even as low as 40 Hz or 50 Hz if it sounds good.)

Remember that you have three Speaker Presets.... Preset 1, Preset 2, and Dirac.

And you can set your fronts to Large or Small independently on each.

Also remember that all processing, including Bass Management, is disabled in Reference Stereo.

(This gives you a lot of options for switching the sub on and off to compare...)

Aug 12, 2019 8:56:37 GMT -5 alastair123 said:

Hi all -

Happy user here of the xmc1 for 5.1 playback and stereo 2.0. It took me time to sort but I have recently gone through the full Dirac option and that’s been a game changer - what a difference!

I’ve done some searching around the forum but can’t find a fit for what I am looking for.

What I would like to do and ask advice for is- 

Has anyone here set up their xmc1 so they can integrate their single sub for stereo music 2.1 playback? Basically I want to utilise my sub for stereo music playback as well as HT, find the best way to integrate it and continue to make the most of Dirac.*

I currently see a couple of options;

1 I could set up the XMC1 so that the front speakers are set to small, they are currently set as large. Simply because they are large active ATC SCM100ASLs. The subwoofer is the ATC C6. I can try some crossovers, then run Dirac again. I then should have the sub active when using the Stereo preset, right?

2 I could keep the speakers set to large, leave the Dirac settings with the Emotiva as is. I could then add a miniDSP solution, like the DDRC-24. There are spare L & R main outs on the Emotiva which can connect to the DDRC-24. A single cable can then be output from the DDRC-24 to the spare input on the C6 sub.
I would then (I think) be able to use the DDRC-24 and Dirac that comes with it, to set the sub crossover and level etc. So the main speakers would run full with the Emotiva Dirac settings, the sub would then come in at the specified crossover care of the DDRC-24 and its Dirac settings.
I know this is not full sub 2.1 integration but I guess a bit like the high level set up you have with RELs, for example? 

I hope that made some sense... so has anyone got any ideas or experience they would like to share of 2.1 set ups with the XMC1, as per what I am trying to achieve - that is finding the best way to integrate my sub for stereo music as well as maintaining its current HT duties?

Thanks in advance!
Alastair

*A note on the sub. It only has one gain control, one set of crossover options from 50 to 2kHz, one contour/phase option and has L & R XLR inputs. So limited options for tweaking. At the moment I am just using the left input for LFE from the XMC1.

[hsamwel]

I did some testing with stereo yesterday after setting up my new subs.
Compairing Reference stereo with Direct mode with crossover at 50hz. I also have a DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema DSP for the subs connected.

It sounded like my subs where playing real slow, boomy and unclear.
Antimode recommends adding 3 feet added distance.. I have the subs about 11 feet from the MLP. First I added the Antimode delay. It made no difference.
I started to add distance.. First to about 20 feet. It started to sound much better. Then I increased the distance until I felt them play in sync with the fronts. I ended up having them at about 31 feet.

Now I have fast, clear and alot less boomy bass with music. I still prefer Reference stereo though.

[alastair123]

@keithl

Thank you for your detailed response. I will try as you suggest, in fact I’ve had a play already just not had time for a serious listen yet. What you suggest is certainly the sensible way forward. 

hsamwel

Thanks for sharing your experience. The DSpeaker boxes have certainly been on my short list. I’ll continue to work with the Emotiva / Dirac options. 

[AudioHTIT]

I would like to see the L/R output mirrored in the sub outputs when in Reference Mode, you could then use the subs crossover allowing them to fill in the bottom while the mains run full range. You could even run an active or passive high pass filter on your mains (before the power amp) to increase power handling and reduce overlap, and keep the whole thing analog (except possibly the sub’s xover).

[alastair123]

Aug 14, 2019 9:53:28 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

I would like to see the L/R output mirrored in the sub outputs when in Reference Mode, you could then use the subs crossover allowing them to fill in the bottom while the mains run full range. You could even run an active or passive high pass filter on your mains (before the power amp) to increase power handling and reduce overlap, and keep the whole thing analog (except possibly the sub’s xover).

Hi Audiohtit

Dirac has had such a profound impact that for me there is no going back, unless I suddenly move to a very favourable house/room. I think a lottery win is more likely 😀

My option 2 above is kinda looking to do what you suggest, ie running the left and rights full range and bringing the sub in underneath.

Alastair

[AudioHTIT]

Aug 14, 2019 11:27:58 GMT -5 alastair123 said:

Aug 14, 2019 9:53:28 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

I would like to see the L/R output mirrored in the sub outputs when in Reference Mode, you could then use the subs crossover allowing them to fill in the bottom while the mains run full range. You could even run an active or passive high pass filter on your mains (before the power amp) to increase power handling and reduce overlap, and keep the whole thing analog (except possibly the sub’s xover).

Hi Audiohtit

Dirac has had such a profound impact that for me there is no going back, unless I suddenly move to a very favourable house/room. I think a lottery win is more likely 😀

My option 2 above is kinda looking to do what you suggest, ie running the left and rights full range and bringing the sub in underneath.

Alastair

Understood, though I’ve mostly used Dirac with HT, I may try it again for 2C when 2.0 is available. My option above is more of a semi-purist alternative to ‘enhanced bass’ that has some disadvantages, and would just enable the sub outputs full range to do what you want with them, no reason really to restrict it to Reference Mode, it could just be an alternate selection to enhanced bass when mains are set to large.

[405x5]

Aug 12, 2019 8:56:37 GMT -5 alastair123 said:

Hi all -

Happy user here of the xmc1 for 5.1 playback and stereo 2.0. It took me time to sort but I have recently gone through the full Dirac option and that’s been a game changer - what a difference!

I’ve done some searching around the forum but can’t find a fit for what I am looking for.

What I would like to do and ask advice for is- 

Has anyone here set up their xmc1 so they can integrate their single sub for stereo music 2.1 playback? Basically I want to utilise my sub for stereo music playback as well as HT, find the best way to integrate it and continue to make the most of Dirac.*

I currently see a couple of options;

1 I could set up the XMC1 so that the front speakers are set to small, they are currently set as large. Simply because they are large active ATC SCM100ASLs. The subwoofer is the ATC C6. I can try some crossovers, then run Dirac again. I then should have the sub active when using the Stereo preset, right?

2 I could keep the speakers set to large, leave the Dirac settings with the Emotiva as is. I could then add a miniDSP solution, like the DDRC-24. There are spare L & R main outs on the Emotiva which can connect to the DDRC-24. A single cable can then be output from the DDRC-24 to the spare input on the C6 sub.
I would then (I think) be able to use the DDRC-24 and Dirac that comes with it, to set the sub crossover and level etc. So the main speakers would run full with the Emotiva Dirac settings, the sub would then come in at the specified crossover care of the DDRC-24 and its Dirac settings.
I know this is not full sub 2.1 integration but I guess a bit like the high level set up you have with RELs, for example? 

I hope that made some sense... so has anyone got any ideas or experience they would like to share of 2.1 set ups with the XMC1, as per what I am trying to achieve - that is finding the best way to integrate my sub for stereo music as well as maintaining its current HT duties?

Thanks in advance!
Alastair

*A note on the sub. It only has one gain control, one set of crossover options from 50 to 2kHz, one contour/phase option and has L & R XLR inputs. So limited options for tweaking. At the moment I am just using the left input for LFE from the XMC1.

I set the XMC1 to DIRECT mode and I get 2 channel with my one Sub. Which has always been set to mono.
Works perfectly for 2.1.
Pop in a Blu-ray and lossless is automatically selected.

Bill

[hsamwel]

Aug 15, 2019 13:23:59 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Aug 12, 2019 8:56:37 GMT -5 alastair123 said:

Hi all -

Happy user here of the xmc1 for 5.1 playback and stereo 2.0. It took me time to sort but I have recently gone through the full Dirac option and that’s been a game changer - what a difference!

I’ve done some searching around the forum but can’t find a fit for what I am looking for.

What I would like to do and ask advice for is- 

Has anyone here set up their xmc1 so they can integrate their single sub for stereo music 2.1 playback? Basically I want to utilise my sub for stereo music playback as well as HT, find the best way to integrate it and continue to make the most of Dirac.*

I currently see a couple of options;

1 I could set up the XMC1 so that the front speakers are set to small, they are currently set as large. Simply because they are large active ATC SCM100ASLs. The subwoofer is the ATC C6. I can try some crossovers, then run Dirac again. I then should have the sub active when using the Stereo preset, right?

2 I could keep the speakers set to large, leave the Dirac settings with the Emotiva as is. I could then add a miniDSP solution, like the DDRC-24. There are spare L & R main outs on the Emotiva which can connect to the DDRC-24. A single cable can then be output from the DDRC-24 to the spare input on the C6 sub.
I would then (I think) be able to use the DDRC-24 and Dirac that comes with it, to set the sub crossover and level etc. So the main speakers would run full with the Emotiva Dirac settings, the sub would then come in at the specified crossover care of the DDRC-24 and its Dirac settings.
I know this is not full sub 2.1 integration but I guess a bit like the high level set up you have with RELs, for example? 

I hope that made some sense... so has anyone got any ideas or experience they would like to share of 2.1 set ups with the XMC1, as per what I am trying to achieve - that is finding the best way to integrate my sub for stereo music as well as maintaining its current HT duties?

Thanks in advance!
Alastair

*A note on the sub. It only has one gain control, one set of crossover options from 50 to 2kHz, one contour/phase option and has L & R XLR inputs. So limited options for tweaking. At the moment I am just using the left input for LFE from the XMC1.

I set the XMC1 to DIRECT mode and I get 2 channel with my one Sub. Which has always been set to mono.
Works perfectly for 2.1.
Pop in a Blu-ray and lossless is automatically selected.

Bill

On my RMC Direct gives alot thinner sound in the mid section and high bass, although deep bass gets deeper with the subwoofer active.
Reference stereo is SO much better from my music players.

What does Direct mode actually do with the sound? Other than allowing bass management..
Is there a ADC, sound processing and DAC route? Anyway, something is making 2ch sound ”worse” other than with straight passthrough.

Can’t wait to get to try out Dirac and hear what it can do with the sound.

[gbeltran57]

This has all been very helpful - particularly the info on large vs small setting, thanks Keith. I upgraded the video board on the XMC-1 and holy smokes has that been an improvement - seamless 4k from directv on my Epson PJ BUT now the HTPC displays 4k native - that is so sweet (I watch BD from ISO).

I have a Rhythmic F12 sub and get anything from it - it worked before the video board upgrade which has me stumped a little as the two should be exclusive? But maybe not since it is an HDMI signal from both DTV and the HTPC. Going to fool around with it some more tonight. I flipped on DIRAC with no setup and as was noted above - that was a game changer and I don't even have it configured properly! I think I must looked like the RCA dog looking at the phonograph when it first came on.

Anyway, good tips here, thank you - just need to get that sub going. I may have to call in as my setup is a little old but I like it 4 pairs of 1970s/1980s ADS speakers (big ones) and 3 old GFA Adcom power amps feeding everything.

[thezone]

My set up has always been as Keith suggested above (setting my Large speakers to "Small" to induce Bass management in the XMC-1) but with internal crossover for all speakers set to 120Hz. Then I connect a single mono sub out from the XMC-1 to an active 3 way cross over and feed three different size subs from there as follows large sub 0-60Hz, middle sub 60-90hz small sub 90 - 120Hz.

This is by far the best the cleanest and tightest bottom end I have ever heard in a HT/music room. This way (in theory) there are no replications of any frequencies by more than one speaker and less chance of phase cancellation. It also frees up head room in the main amp as it only ever has to play 120Hz and up.

[alastair123]

That is good to read that people are having success there.

I was not 100% happy following the approach in terms of the final sound when setting the main speakers as small.

I have recently moved my sub (much further away from my listening seat) which might well mean I will revisit the set up BUT I've got a weird issue with Dirac Live today, so can't properly test it out! New thread on that created elsewhere.