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Post by pedrocols on Dec 5, 2019 23:46:11 GMT -5
Ty all for the inputs, very helpful. I have tried an XSP-1 Gen 2 once, and it failed, in few weeks. not encouraged to try it again. I want one unit with the dac and pre amp together, hence the 2 choices. I have an NAD C-658, using it in my other system, sounds really good, but has no USB input, which I need for my setup. FWIW If you get a refurb XMC-1 for $999 you could always try it out for a while and if you don't like it you can sell it and not lose more than $100-$200 I would guess/ The Mac is a $5000 unit so IF you bought it new that's a whole different level of investemnt. The $5,000 McIntosh C-49 might not sound 5x better than $900 XMC-1 but it has the potential to last 5x longer. |
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Post by brutiarti on Dec 5, 2019 23:56:45 GMT -5
I would say that the XMC-1 will win in SQ but who knows how long it will last.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 6, 2019 5:23:30 GMT -5
My XMC-1 lasted for over five years before the trade in on the XMC-2.
Hard to say how long electronics will last, but there is no reason that it can’t last for a very long time, especially for two channel.
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Post by novisnick on Dec 6, 2019 5:49:00 GMT -5
My XMC-1 lasted for over five years before the trade in on the XMC-2. Hard to say how long electronics will last, but there is no reason that it can’t last for a very long time, especially for two channel. I think the point was that McIntosh will work on their equipment forever, whereas Emotiva will not. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 6, 2019 6:08:38 GMT -5
What novisnick said. I've owned McIntosh gear that was up to 40 years old, and the authorized McIntosh repair facility (about 75 miles from my house) was able to repair my items with factory parts! This may be an isolated case, but I've used that same repair facility now for at least three or four McIntosh repair jobs, and they gave me back my equipment working and looking like new every time. Note also that only one of the repair jobs was for an actual electronic issue - the others were to repair shipping damage. In the (highly unlikely) case that McIntosh equipment does need repair, you definitely can get service. Is the new McIntosh gear as reliable as the older stuff? I don't know. But I know of no other brand that I'd consider as reliable. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 6, 2019 6:47:44 GMT -5
Paul, you know better than to settle. Get the good stuff, and you’ll enjoy the pride of ownership. Bill So it's only the good stuff if it has a certain name or price tag ?? Are some of us on the poorer side missing out ? that sucks haha Creimes, I never said that the good stuff is always the most expensive. But often, the cheap stuff is so for a reason. Best, |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 6, 2019 7:34:27 GMT -5
My XMC-1 lasted for over five years before the trade in on the XMC-2. Hard to say how long electronics will last, but there is no reason that it can’t last for a very long time, especially for two channel. I think the point was that McIntosh will work on their equipment forever, whereas Emotiva will not. True and that applies to most all the mainstream manufacturers. For Mcintosh, as boom mentioned, the stuff from the 70's and 80's can still be repaired by Mcintosh or facilities that specialize in their gear and often with oem parts. Love Mac. Wish I could afford their new gear. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 6, 2019 10:07:12 GMT -5
I think the point was that McIntosh will work on their equipment forever, whereas Emotiva will not. True and that applies to most all the mainstream manufacturers. For Mcintosh, as boom mentioned, the stuff from the 70's and 80's can still be repaired by Mcintosh or facilities that specialize in their gear and often with oem parts. Love Mac. Wish I could afford their new gear. Dream on! McIntosh ownership has been bounced around recently. D&M owned them for a very few years and sold them to the Fine Sound Group of Milan, Italy which is owned by Quadriva, an investment management company. We'll see how long the old fashioned McIntosh mantra can last in a profit driven empire! |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 6, 2019 10:25:00 GMT -5
True and that applies to most all the mainstream manufacturers. For Mcintosh, as boom mentioned, the stuff from the 70's and 80's can still be repaired by Mcintosh or facilities that specialize in their gear and often with oem parts. Love Mac. Wish I could afford their new gear. Dream on! McIntosh ownership has been bounced around recently. D&M owned them for a very few years and sold them to the Fine Sound Group of Milan, Italy which is owned by Quadriva, an investment management company. We'll see how long the old fashioned McIntosh mantra can last in a profit driven empire! D&M pretty much left them alone to do their own thing. Time will tell. I personally think that the current Mcintosh gear is very nice, but overpriced. Not much there for the average guy. |
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Post by creimes on Dec 6, 2019 11:07:48 GMT -5
So it's only the good stuff if it has a certain name or price tag ?? Are some of us on the poorer side missing out ? that sucks haha Creimes, I never said that the good stuff is always the most expensive. But often, the cheap stuff is so for a reason. Best, Was just a simple question, I don't find Emotiva cheap, well not as affordable as they used to be that's for sure, I just see these high priced cables and equipment and wonder if it is that much better, I guess there can always be better or worse for that matter, I wish I lived at or close to where these audio shows get put on, would be cool to go listen to all sorts of different gear and price ranges, I think the thing that turns me off the most is the crazy expensive cables that are out there, some 1m XLR sets are more than my entire system multiplied  I must say McIntosh stuff looks really nice... Chad |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 6, 2019 11:13:20 GMT -5
I'm going to chime in here... because I've actually owned some McIntosh gear and heard several pieces that I didn't own. (I've also known many people who have owned McIntosh gear over the years... going all the way back to original owners of their original tube models.)
McIntosh equipment has always been made very well (like the proverbial tank) and still is. In the old days, they had an absurd warranty that covered even deliberate damage or abuse, even if you weren't the original owner. (The claim used to be that, if you found a McIntosh amp, lying in the road, with a few bullet holes, and tread marks on it, they would still fix or replace it under warranty.) They have since adjusted their warranty, and now it excludes abuse and wear, but it is still very good.
Their equipment is still made like a tank - and most of it still has great resale value.
However, just to be entirely fair, none of that equates to sound quality.
In terms of sound quality, McIntosh's original "claim to fame" was with their tube power amps. Their original amps had really good quality output transformers.. and many of their original models had a special design feature they called "unity coupling". Each of the output tubes had both a plate and a cathode winding on the output transformer.
This yielded more power and lower distortion, for a given tube type, than more standard designs, and was claimed to extend the useful life of the output tubes.
Compared to other tube gear most McIntosh tube gear still has very low distortion.
However, not all of their tube models had this particular feature, and a lot of their early solid state gear wasn't really all that exceptional at all.
The McIntosh piece that I owned was one of their "classic" solid state FM tuners (I think it was an MR77). I bought it used on eBay, and, besides being built like a tank, it was one of the best performing, and best sounding, FM tuners I've ever owned. (Sadly, I learned that there wasn't much on FM that I wanted to listen to, and ended up selling it - and, yes, I got back what I paid for it.)
Let me also say that I've never had the opportunity to listen to any current McIntosh gear at any length. However, I've listened to several of their solid state power amps from twenty and thirty years ago and... to be quite honest... While they were still built exceptionally well, and delivered plenty of power, to me they didn't sound at all exceptional. They certainly didn't sound bad... but they also weren't among the best sounding equipment I've heard lately... And, purely in terms of sound quality, if I were looking for a power amp, there are several other brands I would choose instead. (And, yes, I would say that, even excluding Emotiva gear.... )
As I said, I haven't heard any of their current line of gear, and none of their DACs or modern preamps, so I cannot speak for those one way or the other. However, I most certainly would not "assume something will sound really good because it's a McIntosh."
I would want to listen to a particular model for myself before making any assumption about how it's going to sound (which is pretty good advice anyway). 
I think the point was that McIntosh will work on their equipment forever, whereas Emotiva will not. True and that applies to most all the mainstream manufacturers. For Mcintosh, as boom mentioned, the stuff from the 70's and 80's can still be repaired by Mcintosh or facilities that specialize in their gear and often with oem parts. Love Mac. Wish I could afford their new gear. |
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Post by KeithL on Dec 6, 2019 11:21:02 GMT -5
I was kind of thinking the same thing.... Klipsch horns are not at all "designed wrong" - they're designed perfectly - for the specific purpose for which they were intended. (They're intended to be placed in the corners of a relatively large room - where the room becomes part of the speaker.)
The whole point of Klipsch horns is that they're big corner horns... Therefore, it would seem somewhat foolish to invest in them, and then deliberately NOT use them the way they were intended. If you do that, they're not going to sound the same...
And, if you have to apply lots of EQ boost to compensate for the lack of corner gain, you're going to sacrifice a lot of the efficiency and dynamic range they're known for... (I'm not a big fan of Klipsch horns, but, if that's what you want, then it would be a shame not to use them the way they're intended to be used.)
You'd simply be better off buying something else.
...But per the modern 'more learned' way, put them honkin' corner dwellers somewhere else in the room and use room correction to cancel out Paul Klipsch's reason for designing them 'wrong'! Hi mgbpuff - Without the corners for bass reinforcement, you'd have to boost the Klipschorn's bass to an absurd degree to make up the difference. Enough that your amp would clip if you tried to play loudly, enough that the speakers' woofers could be damaged, and enough that the overall loudness that the speakers are capable of would be reduced greatly. Electronic equalization, at least in this case, is NOT a realistic substitute for the original corner placement. Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by KeithL on Dec 6, 2019 11:33:39 GMT -5
Price is always going to be a relative thing.... You can buy a cheap mass market Atmos capable AVR for a few hundred bucks... And you can spend $20k for a processor from DataSat (or over $100k for one from Lyngdorf)....
And, as creimes alluded to, you can spend more than the price of an RMC-1 for a single two-meter interconnect cable.
You also need to consider the realities of time and progress. The great stereo power amp you bought twenty years ago is still great... because power amps haven't changed much. Of course, if you want home theater, you're going to need a few more channels. However, if you bought the best and most expensive home theater gear in the world twenty years ago, it's now completely obsolete. The audio gear isn't going to do justice to your Dolby Atmos or DTS:X discs and the screen sure isn't 4k (and 4k is already on its way to becoming "last year's tech"). And, ten or twenty years from now, we may all be discussing whether it's worth upgrading to 256 audio channels or not, and whether 64k super-ultra-hi-def video is really worth it or not.
(Or, by then, they may be beaming all of it straight into our heads with a tiny brain implant.)
Considering how quickly technology progresses these days... I'm really not sure that worrying about whether equipment will last 20 years or 50 years is really worthwhile any more.
Creimes, I never said that the good stuff is always the most expensive. But often, the cheap stuff is so for a reason. Best, Was just a simple question, I don't find Emotiva cheap, well not as affordable as they used to be that's for sure, I just see these high priced cables and equipment and wonder if it is that much better, I guess there can always be better or worse for that matter, I wish I lived at or close to where these audio shows get put on, would be cool to go listen to all sorts of different gear and price ranges, I think the thing that turns me off the most is the crazy expensive cables that are out there, some 1m XLR sets are more than my entire system multiplied I must say McIntosh stuff looks really nice... Chad |
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 6, 2019 11:40:21 GMT -5
I was kind of thinking the same thing.... Klipsch horns are not at all "designed wrong" - they're designed perfectly - for the specific purpose for which they were intended. (They're intended to be placed in the corners of a relatively large room - where the room becomes part of the speaker.) The whole point of Klipsch horns is that they're big corner horns... Therefore, it would seem somewhat foolish to invest in them, and then deliberately NOT use them the way they were intended. If you do that, they're not going to sound the same...
And, if you have to apply lots of EQ boost to compensate for the lack of corner gain, you're going to sacrifice a lot of the efficiency and dynamic range they're known for... (I'm not a big fan of Klipsch horns, but, if that's what you want, then it would be a shame not to use them the way they're intended to be used.)
You'd simply be better off buying something else.
Hi mgbpuff - Without the corners for bass reinforcement, you'd have to boost the Klipschorn's bass to an absurd degree to make up the difference. Enough that your amp would clip if you tried to play loudly, enough that the speakers' woofers could be damaged, and enough that the overall loudness that the speakers are capable of would be reduced greatly. Electronic equalization, at least in this case, is NOT a realistic substitute for the original corner placement. Cordially - Boomzilla Again, I was being sarcastic, essentially saying the same thing you are in a back handed manner. I guess sarcasm here must be flagged. Geesh! |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 6, 2019 11:48:52 GMT -5
Keith, did you really comment on the sound of twenty to thirty year old solid state amplifiers? Just wanted to understand that correctly.
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Post by KeithL on Dec 6, 2019 12:01:15 GMT -5
Ummmmm... yeah... although I'm not sure why that's notable....
Home theater has changed a lot in the last twenty or thirty years... But Class A/B amplifier designs haven't changed much at all...
And there were certainly amps that worked really well around that long ago. 
Keith, did you really comment on the sound of twenty to thirty year old solid state amplifiers? Just wanted to understand that correctly. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 6, 2019 12:37:17 GMT -5
I was hoping you were aware of the improvements in resistors,, capacitors, stepped attenuators and other things that affect sonics, reliability and value.....
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 6, 2019 14:31:38 GMT -5
In general, about McIntosh gear... Their technology (even now) is designed to enhance reliability. BUT...
In some types of McIntosh gear, you get more and better technology than in others. Their stereo preamps, for example, have mercury switches, enclosed in a nitrogen-filled glass tube, that prevent oxidation problems. You get no such thing in their AV equipment. This actually makes very good sense - their stereo preamps may still be in service decades from now - their AV processors are obsolete by the time you get them home. Therefore, due to technical obsolescence, I'd never spend the $$$ for a McIntosh AV processor. This isn't to say that they aren't nice processors (and also very well built), but look at the resale value of an obsolete McIntosh processor... It's still higher than a mass-market brand, but still only pennies on the dollar originally spent.
Some McIntosh power amps lack their "autoformer" output transformer. Some don't care, but I find that the McIntosh transformer-coupled amps sound better. If I were component shopping and could afford it, I'd happily invest in current Mac stereo preamps and power amps. Their (transformer-less) multi-channel amps & AV processors? Not so much.
Some of the best sound I've heard was from a McIntosh C41 solid-state preamplifier and a MC-302 solid-state (transformer coupled) power amp. Wish I hadn't sold those... I'd wager money that those two components are not only still playing without issue, but that they also still meet their factory specifications.
If you don't like McIntosh styling, fine. If you don't like (or can't afford) McIntosh prices, oh well... But I can't say enough good things about late-model McIntosh sound and reliability. I think you get what you pay for when it comes to anything else vs. McIntosh (with the exceptions noted above).
Boomzilla
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Post by donh50 on Dec 6, 2019 15:05:36 GMT -5
Another person just got an XMC-1 and it came with FW 5.7, which bricked the unit when he used it in 2-ch mode. Before doing ANYTHING else, check the FW rev when you get it, and update to 5.14 if it is not there already: emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/55882/current-version-xmc-firmware-2019Been around and heard many times but never owned a pair of Klipschorns. Did get to meet and talk with Paul a few times; he was quite a character and despite his rep was very nice to a young snot kid. Loved the lapel buttons... McIntosh, especially under Rusty and crew, has had a great reputation for build quality and mixed on sound quality. Their original tube amps were pure class B and suffered from fairly severe crossover distortion. Since then they are as good as anything else, and arguably more stable than some of their direct-coupled competition. They've had mixed bag of "other" components, some outsourced, that were up and down on sound and reliability. They do stand behind their stuff, though! As for original parts, well, very few offer the long-term support we used to expect. AVRs I have seen that are EOL for spare parts after 3-5 years, sometimes sooner, sometimes later, depending on the component. Bryston comes to mind, with their 20-year warranty on amps, as another of the "old school" companies. These days I think it is unrealistic to expect processors and such to be around 10 years from now. Transformers and caps, maybe, or at least adequate replacements. I am not sure there have been a lot of significant advances in component reliability in the past ten or 30 years -- lifetime tends to depend much more on the environment and how they are used in the circuits. 15 to 20 years was expected for hi-rel parts in the late 70's/early-80's when I started doing electronics stuff and it has not changed all that much. Mostly they've gotten smaller (and my eyes worser, alas). FWIWFM - Don |
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Post by creimes on Dec 6, 2019 15:14:36 GMT -5
Sort of like the latest Best Buy flyer advertising a 5.2 Atmos receiver for $299 haha I'm not sure how you get Atmos from 5.2 but hey what do I know about Atmos anyways lol Price is always going to be a relative thing.... You can buy a cheap mass market Atmos capable AVR for a few hundred bucks... And you can spend $20k for a processor from DataSat (or over $100k for one from Lyngdorf)....
And, as creimes alluded to, you can spend more than the price of an RMC-1 for a single two-meter interconnect cable.
You also need to consider the realities of time and progress. The great stereo power amp you bought twenty years ago is still great... because power amps haven't changed much. Of course, if you want home theater, you're going to need a few more channels. However, if you bought the best and most expensive home theater gear in the world twenty years ago, it's now completely obsolete. The audio gear isn't going to do justice to your Dolby Atmos or DTS:X discs and the screen sure isn't 4k (and 4k is already on its way to becoming "last year's tech"). And, ten or twenty years from now, we may all be discussing whether it's worth upgrading to 256 audio channels or not, and whether 64k super-ultra-hi-def video is really worth it or not.
(Or, by then, they may be beaming all of it straight into our heads with a tiny brain implant.)
Considering how quickly technology progresses these days... I'm really not sure that worrying about whether equipment will last 20 years or 50 years is really worthwhile any more.
Was just a simple question, I don't find Emotiva cheap, well not as affordable as they used to be that's for sure, I just see these high priced cables and equipment and wonder if it is that much better, I guess there can always be better or worse for that matter, I wish I lived at or close to where these audio shows get put on, would be cool to go listen to all sorts of different gear and price ranges, I think the thing that turns me off the most is the crazy expensive cables that are out there, some 1m XLR sets are more than my entire system multiplied I must say McIntosh stuff looks really nice... Chad |
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