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Post by mfeust on Feb 16, 2020 10:45:58 GMT -5
I'm wondering if anyone has played with bi-wiring T2+'s vs. just plain single wire and if any differences were noticeable? I'm starting to lean heavily on taking the plunge, and my current speaker manufacturer (Vandersteen) absolutely insists on bi-wiring theirs, but I'd rather not if there was little noticeable difference. My main interest at this point is clarity, and I have noticed that in comparing the Stealth-8's to the Vandy 3's (20 years young) there was definitely more inner detail on the 8's, and I am presuming/hoping the same would be true for the AMT-topped T2+'s. No lack of good power behind the curtain (Emotiva MPS-2). Just wanted to let you know. I have for sale 2 amp blades left from my MPS-1 amp in case you would like to secure them to have as reserve. Mark |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 12:15:16 GMT -5
Even though you do have clean power, you may experience an improvement going to the Emotiva PA-1 or XPA-1 gen 2 amps. For bi-wiring, I say why not. I doubt you'd hear much difference. My speakers are bi-wired and I can't say I can reliably tell a difference though at times I feel that the sounds "flows" dynamically a little easier, but it could very well be imagination, that's how small it is. I bi-wired my Tektons just because I had the wire laying around. Before I installed my system I ordered a few rolls of KnuKonceptz Kord Kable 10 Gauge Copper Speaker Wire [heavy]. I spliced two pairs of wire at the amp and soldered using high content silver solder so there's one positive and one negative on one end and then four on the opposite. Then just to be cool and go overkill I installed a bridge at the end. Should be more than I'll ever need to drive 600 watts rms for six feet of length. I do recommend this wire if anyone is interested: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076SFE9Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2020 16:19:09 GMT -5
Interesting hookup... I went the opposite direction & made some 16ga, 2-foot-long biwire cables from my mono PA-1 amps to the speakers. I use them without the +/+ and -/- jumpers installed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 16:51:05 GMT -5
Interesting hookup... I went the opposite direction & made some 16ga, 2-foot-long biwire cables from my mono PA-1 amps to the speakers. I use them without the +/+ and -/- jumpers installed. Hi Boomzilla, Yours is the true bi-wire. This is quite funny as some are taking issue with my setup elsewhere with the jumpers. Does it really matter that there are essentially bridges at either end of two pairs of wire after effectively doubling up the wire gauge? I don't think so but it seems that the wiring is turning out to be a conversation starter! Enjoy, William |
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Post by klinemj on Feb 17, 2020 16:59:23 GMT -5
Interesting hookup... I went the opposite direction & made some 16ga, 2-foot-long biwire cables from my mono PA-1 amps to the speakers. I use them without the +/+ and -/- jumpers installed. Hi Boomzilla, Yours is the true bi-wire. This is quite funny as some are taking issue with my setup elsewhere with the jumpers. Does it really matter that essentially bridges are at either end of two pairs of wire after effectively doubling up the wire gauge? I don't think so but it seems that the wiring is turning out to be a conversation starter! Enjoy, William So...I don't get it...you bi-wired, then made your own jumper out of wire instead of the standard jumper. I don't mean this as an insult, but...why? I get that you effectively doubled the wire gauge "kind of" (at least you did from amp to speaker...but). If you were going to bridge anyway at the speaker terminal end, why not just use the standard bridge/jumper instead of the added length of wire for your own jumper? Mark |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 17:07:05 GMT -5
Hi Boomzilla, Yours is the true bi-wire. This is quite funny as some are taking issue with my setup elsewhere with the jumpers. Does it really matter that essentially bridges are at either end of two pairs of wire after effectively doubling up the wire gauge? I don't think so but it seems that the wiring is turning out to be a conversation starter! Enjoy, William So...I don't get it...you bi-wired, then made your own jumper out of wire instead of the standard jumper. I don't mean this as an insult, but...why? I get that you effectively doubled the wire gauge "kind of" (at least you did from amp to speaker...but). If you were going to bridge anyway at the speaker terminal end, why not just use the standard bridge/jumper instead of the added length of wire for your own jumper? Mark The Tektons don't come with a jumper. They do however recommend bi-wiring the setup. No insult received. Path to least resistance from multiple points? ...... not that I really think it makes a difference running a pair of 10 gauge wire only 6 feet in length for the power rating of the amp. Really, two pairs of 10 gauge wire running 6 feet in length to deliver 600watts whether bridged together or bi-wired I think is totally overkill. In all seriousness, I don't think bi-wire makes a difference if wires joined to binding post of amp to two pairs of sufficient sized gauge wire is adequate. I'd only think it makes a difference if one pair gauge is insufficient and two pairs effectively bring about the overall gauge of wire to the properly sized wire. |
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Post by klinemj on Feb 17, 2020 17:22:52 GMT -5
So...I don't get it...you bi-wired, then made your own jumper out of wire instead of the standard jumper. I don't mean this as an insult, but...why? I get that you effectively doubled the wire gauge "kind of" (at least you did from amp to speaker...but). If you were going to bridge anyway at the speaker terminal end, why not just use the standard bridge/jumper instead of the added length of wire for your own jumper? Mark The Tektons don't come with a jumper. They do however recommend bi-wiring the setup. No insult received. Path to least resistance from multiple points? ...... not that I really think it makes a difference running a pair of 10 gauge wire only 6 feet in length for the power rating of the amp. Really, two pairs of 10 gauge wire running 6 feet in length to deliver 600watts whether bridged together or bi-wired I think is totally overkill. In all seriousness, I don't think bi-wire makes a difference if wires joined to binding post of amp to two pairs of sufficient sized gauge wire is adequate. I'd only think it makes a difference if one pair gauge is insufficient and two pairs effectively bring about the overall gauge of wire to the properly sized wire. Didn't realize Tektons didn't have a jumper. Interesting. For a while, I have dual 10 gauge running from my monoblocks to my Maggies. Pricey wires...standard wire from Home Depot. LOL! Dual 10's barely fit in the banana plugs. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2020 19:51:54 GMT -5
Hi Boomzilla, Yours is the true bi-wire. This is quite funny as some are taking issue with my setup elsewhere with the jumpers. Does it really matter that essentially bridges are at either end of two pairs of wire after effectively doubling up the wire gauge? I don't think so but it seems that the wiring is turning out to be a conversation starter! Enjoy, William Hi @shimei - In fact, no - it makes no difference whether the speaker jumpers are installed or not. The electricity will take the path of least resistance (much like water). And assuming that the wiring directly from the power amp to the speaker terminals is that path, the vast majority of power will flow directly. The small additional resistance of the terminal jumpers will insure that little of the power will flow through them, but they don't hurt anything. Some labor under the misconception that having the terminal jumpers installed somehow defeats the intention of bi-wiring. But in fact, it just doesn't matter. I like the terminals on your main wires, by the way; what are those? Cheers - Boom |
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Post by klinemj on Feb 17, 2020 21:49:16 GMT -5
Hi Boomzilla, Yours is the true bi-wire. This is quite funny as some are taking issue with my setup elsewhere with the jumpers. Does it really matter that essentially bridges are at either end of two pairs of wire after effectively doubling up the wire gauge? I don't think so but it seems that the wiring is turning out to be a conversation starter! Enjoy, William Hi @shimei - In fact, no - it makes no difference whether the speaker jumpers are installed or not. The electricity will take the path of least resistance (much like water). And assuming that the wiring directly from the power amp to the speaker terminals is that path, the vast majority of power will flow directly. The small additional resistance of the terminal jumpers will insure that little of the power will flow through them, but they don't hurt anything. Some labor under the misconception that having the terminal jumpers installed somehow defeats the intention of bi-wiring. But in fact, it just doesn't matter. I like the terminals on your main wires, by the way; what are those? Cheers - Boom So...are you saying that if the jumpers are NOT installed - power from the amp to EITHER set of terminals will go to the crossover in exactly the same way as though the jumpers were installed? If so, that goes completely against what I understood. Is that universally true or only try with Tektons? Or, are you saying that his approach to jumpers vs. the typical approach are effectively the same? Mark |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 21:49:18 GMT -5
Hi Boomzilla, Yours is the true bi-wire. This is quite funny as some are taking issue with my setup elsewhere with the jumpers. Does it really matter that essentially bridges are at either end of two pairs of wire after effectively doubling up the wire gauge? I don't think so but it seems that the wiring is turning out to be a conversation starter! Enjoy, William Hi @shimei - In fact, no - it makes no difference whether the speaker jumpers are installed or not. The electricity will take the path of least resistance (much like water). And assuming that the wiring directly from the power amp to the speaker terminals is that path, the vast majority of power will flow directly. The small additional resistance of the terminal jumpers will insure that little of the power will flow through them, but they don't hurt anything. Some labor under the misconception that having the terminal jumpers installed somehow defeats the intention of bi-wiring. But in fact, it just doesn't matter. I like the terminals on your main wires, by the way; what are those? Cheers - Boom I picked up the Banana plugs from GLS: www.glsaudio.com/GLS-Audio-Banana-Plug-Speaker-Connectors--Black-Chrome-Generation-4--20-Pack_p_355.html |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 23:44:31 GMT -5
Hi @shimei - In fact, no - it makes no difference whether the speaker jumpers are installed or not. The electricity will take the path of least resistance (much like water). And assuming that the wiring directly from the power amp to the speaker terminals is that path, the vast majority of power will flow directly. The small additional resistance of the terminal jumpers will insure that little of the power will flow through them, but they don't hurt anything. Some labor under the misconception that having the terminal jumpers installed somehow defeats the intention of bi-wiring. But in fact, it just doesn't matter. I like the terminals on your main wires, by the way; what are those? Cheers - Boom So...are you saying that if the jumpers are NOT installed - power from the amp to EITHER set of terminals will go to the crossover in exactly the same way as though the jumpers were installed? If so, that goes completely against what I understood. Is that universally true or only try with Tektons? Or, are you saying that his approach to jumpers vs. the typical approach are effectively the same? Mark When I called Eric Anderson of Tekton I asked for clarification on whether the two pairs of posts were to be bi-amped or bi-wired [note there are no jumpers]. He stated Tekton doesn't recommend bi-amping but rather bi-wiring. My next question was if I use either binding posts top or bottom does it matter? He stated I could use either or both. I have no idea what the internal wiring looks like within the Tekton Ulfberhts. I have only heard that Tekton conceals with liberal use of sealant and placement the crossovers in order to keep them from prying eyes. I cannot confirm or deny whether that's true or how they are wired internally. I'm only going by what Eric told me directly. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2020 3:37:36 GMT -5
So...are you saying that if the jumpers are NOT installed - power from the amp to EITHER set of terminals will go to the crossover in exactly the same way as though the jumpers were installed? If so, that goes completely against what I understood. Is that universally true or only try with Tektons? Or, are you saying that his approach to jumpers vs. the typical approach are effectively the same? Mark Hi klinemj - The purpose of bi-wiring is to keep the high-current flow through the woofers segregated from the lower-current flow through the midrange/tweeter section. The reason is that the back-EMF from the woofers can be significant while that from the (smaller voice coil) midrange/tweeter(s) is less. Although having the jumpers on the speaker terminals could theoretically slightly lower the segregation mentioned above, in reality, even the slight additional resistance of the jumpers ensures that the current from each individual terminal will STILL take the path of least resistance (the direct-wire route) to/from the amp.  Attachments:
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Post by klinemj on Feb 18, 2020 7:44:54 GMT -5
So...are you saying that if the jumpers are NOT installed - power from the amp to EITHER set of terminals will go to the crossover in exactly the same way as though the jumpers were installed? If so, that goes completely against what I understood. Is that universally true or only try with Tektons? Or, are you saying that his approach to jumpers vs. the typical approach are effectively the same? Mark Hi klinemj - The purpose of bi-wiring is to keep the high-current flow through the woofers segregated from the lower-current flow through the midrange/tweeter section. The reason is that the back-EMF from the woofers can be significant while that from the (smaller voice coil) midrange/tweeter(s) is less. Although having the jumpers on the speaker terminals could theoretically slightly lower the segregation mentioned above, in reality, even the slight additional resistance of the jumpers ensures that the current from each individual terminal will STILL take the path of least resistance (the direct-wire route) to/from the amp. I know the back-EMF theory for bi-wiring. Debated it with a friend years ago. Assuming the back-EMF theory were in play, in the case of the jumper as this one is executed...looks like a very short wire of the same gauge as the wires from the amp. So, the least resistance would be the path from terminal to terminal - not back to the amp. So, any back-EMF would go to both terminals and then back down the wires to the amp. And, again - that's "if" any back-EMF were in play. It just seems odd and counter-intuitive to me. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2020 9:33:17 GMT -5
...Assuming the back-EMF theory were in play, in the case of the jumper as this one is executed...looks like a very short wire of the same gauge as the wires from the amp. So, the least resistance would be the path from terminal to terminal - not back to the amp. So, any back-EMF would go to both terminals and then back down the wires to the amp. And, again - that's "if" any back-EMF were in play. It just seems odd and counter-intuitive to me. Mark No. The "spare terminal resistance" is the resistance of IT'S wiring to/from the amplifier PLUS the resistance of the jumper. Now the jumper resistance is tiny (maybe 0.005 to 0.01 ohms), but the path of least resistance is STILL down the terminal to the amplifier directly. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 9:57:52 GMT -5
...Assuming the back-EMF theory were in play, in the case of the jumper as this one is executed...looks like a very short wire of the same gauge as the wires from the amp. So, the least resistance would be the path from terminal to terminal - not back to the amp. So, any back-EMF would go to both terminals and then back down the wires to the amp. And, again - that's "if" any back-EMF were in play. It just seems odd and counter-intuitive to me. Mark No. The "spare terminal resistance" is the resistance of IT'S wiring to/from the amplifier PLUS the resistance of the jumper. Now the jumper resistance is tiny (maybe 0.005 to 0.01 ohms), but the path of least resistance is STILL down the terminal to the amplifier directly. Just curious. Let's run a hypothetical. Say, the wiring ends up becoming "overloaded" and the resistance increases more than that of the jumper or bridge. Would there be an undesirable "oscillation" between the pairs of speaker wires because of the jumper? Or might that be actually desirable? I guess this scenario assumes that one pair of wires might increase in resistance over the other and of course exceeding the resistance of the bridge. Just wondering whether oscillation might ever be a concern? Will the jumper go from a water dam to spillway? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2020 10:09:11 GMT -5
No. Oscillation is not an option. Current ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance. If the "direct wire" from the speaker terminal to/from the amp has higher resistance (cold solder joint?), then the current will go through the jumper and use that wire. This is JUST like water seeking the lowest level.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 18, 2020 10:21:57 GMT -5
...Assuming the back-EMF theory were in play, in the case of the jumper as this one is executed...looks like a very short wire of the same gauge as the wires from the amp. So, the least resistance would be the path from terminal to terminal - not back to the amp. So, any back-EMF would go to both terminals and then back down the wires to the amp. And, again - that's "if" any back-EMF were in play. It just seems odd and counter-intuitive to me. Mark No. The "spare terminal resistance" is the resistance of IT'S wiring to/from the amplifier PLUS the resistance of the jumper. Now the jumper resistance is tiny (maybe 0.005 to 0.01 ohms), but the path of least resistance is STILL down the terminal to the amplifier directly. Yeah - that makes sense thinking of it that way. I didn't see your drawing at first...didn't show up. That makes it clear. The jumper, though, doesn't seem to add any value over not having it - other than being a cool conversation piece. Mark |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 10:41:15 GMT -5
No. The "spare terminal resistance" is the resistance of IT'S wiring to/from the amplifier PLUS the resistance of the jumper. Now the jumper resistance is tiny (maybe 0.005 to 0.01 ohms), but the path of least resistance is STILL down the terminal to the amplifier directly. Yeah - that makes sense thinking of it that way. I didn't see your drawing at first...didn't show up. That makes it clear. The jumper, though, doesn't seem to add any value over not having it - other than being a cool conversation piece. Mark We have cool diagrams also:  |
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Post by klinemj on Feb 18, 2020 11:14:43 GMT -5
Now that is certainly a cool diagram! Much prettier than the one Boomzilla made. A+ for the diagram! LOL! (For PhD level diagramming, see mine about using a sub with reference stereo and ability to switch between 2 types of amps...) Mark |
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Post by KeithL on Feb 18, 2020 12:31:56 GMT -5
Well....because the resistance of the jumper is negligible compared to the resistance of the speaker wires it ensures that each two wires will act exactly like one fatter wire. (Without the jumper in place exactly what happens will depend on how the speakers are wired internally.)
(And, yes, with 10 gauge wires, each six foot long, and the amount of current involved in running speakers, any difference whatsoever is going to be really really tiny.)
Note that the idea that "current takes the path of least resistance" is sort of an oversimplification. For two resistances with the same voltage across them - current flow in each will be inversely proportional to the resistance. (Each pair of wires is electrically two really low value resistors in parallel.)
So, if you have two paths of almost equal resistance, the current will be divided almost equally between them, with slightly more than half following the path of lower resistance.
(So, in this case, the current will be divided equally between the two wires...)
I'll also point out a "hidden down-side" of both bi-amping and bi-wiring... By adding more wires, and more connections, you are increasing the ways in which something can come loose, short to something else, or simply get hooked up wrong. 
No. The "spare terminal resistance" is the resistance of IT'S wiring to/from the amplifier PLUS the resistance of the jumper. Now the jumper resistance is tiny (maybe 0.005 to 0.01 ohms), but the path of least resistance is STILL down the terminal to the amplifier directly. Yeah - that makes sense thinking of it that way. I didn't see your drawing at first...didn't show up. That makes it clear. The jumper, though, doesn't seem to add any value over not having it - other than being a cool conversation piece. Mark |
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