2ch "downdgrade" for HT

[jdubs]

As I evaluate my lifestyle, age of my system, and listening habits... I am considering converting my 5.1 HT system to 2.1 (2.2) in the near future. (I have a dedicated 2ch system in another room). The system design AFTER digital to analog conversion is fairly easy, thus why I'm putting it here in the HT Zone.

My over-arching question is the design of the system because there won't be a video/audio/HDMI switching device as there won't be a receiver/pre-pro. I suppose I could use something like the MC-700 for pre-amp/DAC/switching duties and have the advantage of sub control. However, I was really liking the idea of a purely analog tube pre (as I have in my other system). If I went that direction... my TV does have optical out so I could use it as the "switching" device and just take optical out to a DAC-->Analog Pre. I know there are HDMI conversion and switching devices from places like Monoprice too.

Any advice on the cleanest way to do this? The goal is sound quality, but in a system the family can use. I use a Harmony remote and an IR repeating system so that makes most of that duty easy regardless of components.

For reference, I'd be using ROKU to LG OLED TV and there would be a blu-ray player in the mix. Not sure what I would use for music yet, but I'm thing possibly Bluesound Node.

[KeithL]

There are a few things you'll need to consider...

1)

Does your TV have the option to output stereo rather than surround sound via Optical?

Many TVs output surround sound from that output when the program you're watching is surround.

Most two-channel DACs only accept STEREO via their optical input - and you will get nothing if you feed a surround sound signal into one of them.

Some TVs either always output two-channel or can be configured to do so (make sure yours is one of them).

If not, you'll need to use either a pre/pro that accepts a surround sound input, or one of those little black boxes that supports surround sound.

2)

Most two-channel DACs do NOT have bass management (no separate subwoofer output).

If not, you will have several options......

- connect your sub to the main outputs and use its controls to blend it with your mains

- use a sub that has a built-in crossover (like our Flex 8 sub)

- use a separate external crossover (these three options will only work if you have a separate power amp and preamp)

3)

Many TVs actually still have an ANALOG two channel output ("external speaker" or "headphone") - and many of them actually sound quite good.

This is always stereo - will allow you to control everything from the TV - and is the simplest solution.

(You're talking about a tube preamp - so, odds are, using this output won't significantly increase the noise or distortion.)

Mar 3, 2020 10:09:02 GMT -5 jdubs said:

As I evaluate my lifestyle, age of my system, and listening habits... I am considering converting my 5.1 HT system to 2.1 (2.2) in the near future. (I have a dedicated 2ch system in another room). The system design AFTER digital to analog conversion is fairly easy, thus why I'm putting it here in the HT Zone.

My over-arching question is the design of the system because there won't be a video/audio/HDMI switching device as there won't be a receiver/pre-pro. I suppose I could use something like the MC-700 for pre-amp/DAC/switching duties and have the advantage of sub control. However, I was really liking the idea of a purely analog tube pre (as I have in my other system). If I went that direction... my TV does have optical out so I could use it as the "switching" device and just take optical out to a DAC-->Analog Pre. I know there are HDMI conversion and switching devices from places like Monoprice too.

Any advice on the cleanest way to do this? The goal is sound quality, but in a system the family can use. I use a Harmony remote and an IR repeating system so that makes most of that duty easy regardless of components.

For reference, I'd be using ROKU to LG OLED TV and there would be a blu-ray player in the mix. Not sure what I would use for music yet, but I'm thing possibly Bluesound Node.

[jdubs]

Keith-

Thanks for pointing out things I may have not considered! Exactly what I was looking for. I'll check the settings for the optical out. I've used it, but into a surround receiver that then did the mix. Bass management is certainly a concern. As you can see in my signature, I use a DSP amp in my dedicated 2ch system... so I'm not adverse to that, an external crossover as you stated, or other "outside the box" solutions. Never thought of using the analog out from the TV. I'll have to explore that a little more.

[vcautokid]

I hear this more and more. My world has drifted more away from HT to 2 channel mixing and mastering my workflow. I can always do HT, but it isn't the priority it once was.

[cgolf]

I run Roku through my receiver (Denon 3500) into a projector. Setting on the Denon is stereo. Sounds great. Most of my music comes from my phone through BT on the Denon or from Pluto or Pandora, etc. All sounds great through the stereo setting on the Denon. Not intentional, but it seems that I stay in this mode much more often than I do HT.

We did watch Midway the other night. Great movie!!

[DYohn]

In my humble opinion every system needs a preamp. Trying to build one without - or trying to use another device like a TV to provide preamp functions - is usually disappointing. Get a preamp.

[audiobill]

This:

"my TV does have optical out so I could use it as the "switching" device and just take optical out to a DAC-->Analog Pre"

Using a good tube pre will improve your enjoyment over s/s.

[garbulky]

Mar 3, 2020 10:09:02 GMT -5 jdubs said:

As I evaluate my lifestyle, age of my system, and listening habits... I am considering converting my 5.1 HT system to 2.1 (2.2) in the near future. (I have a dedicated 2ch system in another room). The system design AFTER digital to analog conversion is fairly easy, thus why I'm putting it here in the HT Zone.

My over-arching question is the design of the system because there won't be a video/audio/HDMI switching device as there won't be a receiver/pre-pro. I suppose I could use something like the MC-700 for pre-amp/DAC/switching duties and have the advantage of sub control. However, I was really liking the idea of a purely analog tube pre (as I have in my other system). If I went that direction... my TV does have optical out so I could use it as the "switching" device and just take optical out to a DAC-->Analog Pre. I know there are HDMI conversion and switching devices from places like Monoprice too.

Any advice on the cleanest way to do this? The goal is sound quality, but in a system the family can use. I use a Harmony remote and an IR repeating system so that makes most of that duty easy regardless of components.

For reference, I'd be using ROKU to LG OLED TV and there would be a blu-ray player in the mix. Not sure what I would use for music yet, but I'm thing possibly Bluesound Node.

I have been doing two channel HT for years. You will find that it is easier to get a high performance (measurements wise) two channel DAC vs a fully balanced system. For instance, I've heard the MC-700 and was left decidedly unimpressed by the sound, while I really like the sound from my DC-1.

The trouble, especially with all the current 4k hardware is that it is much harder to find an SPDIF Coax(RCA) or TOSLINK (optical) output for the DACs. Most of the connections out there are HDMI.
So what I did was found an HDMI switcher which has...a digital output on it.
This is the one I use. It supports HDMI 2.0b 4k so pretty much the highest standards you normally get without issue.

www.amazon.com/Extractor-Optical-Coaxial-Support-Function/dp/B07X23D688/

It is $40. You can use only one, but if you do that you will have to switch the HDMI output with a remote. But if you purchase one for every device, then you don't have to worry about the remote and simply use your system as is.

I also use a Logitech Harmony. The one I use is the Harmony Hub (with the remote).
This specific one
www.amazon.com/Logitech-Harmony-Companion-Control-Entertainment/dp/B00N3RFC4G/

I found out that I can use an echo dot ($30-$50) to operate it by voice and also using the remote. I use it to control the INPUT switching. So what that does is if you have multiple digital connections to your DAC and to your TV, it will switch the input on both the TV AND The DC-1 together. Eg. I can do it by voice command "Alexa turn on Blu ray mode" - switches to Blu ray player, switches dc-1 to coax input. The remote was also invaluable as you can program three physical "hot buttons" which you can tap to simply activate the input switching routine of up to 6 different devices with a single press.

Also it can pause and start a movie by voice ("Alexa, pause/play".)

So those two tips really helped me out. I currently have my DC-1 DAC connected to multiple devices including my FireTV, Blu Ray player, PC, and analog turn table. Good luck to ya!

[jdubs]

Mar 3, 2020 15:00:31 GMT -5 DYohn said:

In my humble opinion every system needs a preamp. Trying to build one without - or trying to use another device like a TV to provide preamp functions - is usually disappointing. Get a preamp.

I agree with this... see my next post.

[jdubs]

Mar 3, 2020 15:41:18 GMT -5 audiobill said:

This:

"my TV does have optical out so I could use it as the "switching" device and just take optical out to a DAC-->Analog Pre"

Using a good tube pre will improve your enjoyment over s/s.

Actually, implementing a tube pre is one of my main objectives. My main 2ch system has a tube pre and ss mono amps. I had been chasing the right sound forever until I found this combo. Those speakers are a bit power hungry and lower impedance so that is a factor there.

Maybe more appropriate in the "stereo" section of the site, but when I start designing the actual system, this synergy is going to be key for whatever I do.

[jdubs]

Keith-

I checked the digital audio output of the TV. I can choose "Auto" or "PCM". I assume the Auto setting will give me surround encoding when it's there, and PCM will downmix to a stereo output that a stereo DAC can decode. Am I correct in this?

[KeithL]

That is what I would expect to happen.

Mar 4, 2020 9:11:21 GMT -5 jdubs said:

Keith-

I checked the digital audio output of the TV. I can choose "Auto" or "PCM". I assume the Auto setting will give me surround encoding when it's there, and PCM will downmix to a stereo output that a stereo DAC can decode. Am I correct in this?

[jdubs]

Thanks all who have participated! Garbulky, thanks for all the detailed info. I'm thinking the optical output with PCM setting is my answer, but if I change TVs, I might need to look into the devices you referenced.

[drtrey3]

I use my PT100 to send a summed signal to my subwoofer, and I use the subwoofer controls to dial in just a little extra oomph down low. My son and I were listening to bass heavy track to try to dial it in, no need for tubby bass, and he suggested the TRex scene from Jurassic Park. We meant to just do a sound check but ended up watching a LOT of the movie. And yes, the bass was awesome. And not tubby.

Trey

[jdubs]

RE: subs

I really like the control an external DSP gives; so I will probably do DIY subs with a DSP amp (Like my main 2ch system). I don't like the way most subs on the market rely on a pre/pro or receiver to control it's crossover. Typically, they only have a crossover knob that turns down to 50... this isn't low enough for main speakers that play down to 35-45hz. Plus, I get the advantage of a parametric EQ to control peaks. I used REW to tune the crossover and EQ on my main system and it worked out well.

[405x5]

Mar 3, 2020 11:52:42 GMT -5 vcautokid said:

I hear this more and more. My world has drifted more away from HT to 2 channel mixing and mastering my workflow. I can always do HT, but it isn't the priority it once was.

For sure, everyone’s got their own way on this.
Years ago when I relocated, I ended up with one great room to realize the potential of my main systems.
From there I upgraded those to the top of the line and added everything else needed for killer music and movies in one space. I’m done! No going back.

Bill

[jdubs]

My receiver took a crap, so this is closer than ever. Gonna just use the TV sound temporarily while I research and acquire components. This didn’t come at a good time financially, so I’ll be moving slow.

Definitely going to plug my components into the TV via HDMI, then go optical out to a DAC. Just don’t know yet what those components are going to be. This thread definitely helped with designing how the system will work. Thanks!

[vcautokid]

jdubs if you don't need HDMI switching your choices just got much wider. Since you are running optical out possibly as Keith outlined, You can get anything you want. Integrateds offer USB input and other digital audio facilities, so you are not just locked into just an AVR. Also when you just get tired of keeping up with the HDMI compliance. I don't play the HDMI game anymore. Purely stupid that. HDMI has never benefited anyone that any other sane technology would have handled. Only Hollywood's greed and paranoia is why HDMI really is here when some Ethernet like solution or fiber would have been better anyway. I digress. I have sort of integrated back to 5.1 but still mostly it is 2.1 or 3.1 depending need. So the audio world is your oyster. Once you let your TV do more, 2 channel is easy peasy. Surround for that matter too if the high zoot TrueHD and so on means nothing to you.

[jdubs]

**Update**

I need to do this on the cheap. REALLY tired of the TV sound, so I'm going to acquire a few components and get it going even if it's not how I want it done. Then I can satisfy some upgraditis as we go along!

I am in the process of getting a used A-100 amp. I think I'm going to get a Schiit Modius DAC. These 2 components will be the backbone; yes, I know there isn't a tube pre-amp in the mix... that'll have to be part of the upgrade. I'm using the digital out from the TV using it as the switching source. I'm getting the plate amp of an old Mordaunt Short subwoofer fixed and will need a good pair of bookshelf speakers. That will at least get me into some decent sound!

[daveczski65]

Sept 26, 2020 13:11:15 GMT -5 jdubs said:

**Update**

I need to do this on the cheap. REALLY tired of the TV sound, so I'm going to acquire a few components and get it going even if it's not how I want it done. Then I can satisfy some upgraditis as we go along!

I am in the process of getting a used A-100 amp. I think I'm going to get a Schiit Modius DAC. These 2 components will be the backbone; yes, I know there isn't a tube pre-amp in the mix... that'll have to be part of the upgrade. I'm using the digital out from the TV using it as the switching source. I'm getting the plate amp of an old Mordaunt Short subwoofer fixed and will need a good pair of bookshelf speakers. That will at least get me into some decent sound!

I just changed out my DEAD. UMC-1 in bedroom for my DC-1 ,,hooked it to optical and changed setting in tv menu to pcm. It is feed into stealth 6s..love the sound now over the umc-1 zone 2.

I have a brand new A-100 gen 1 sitting in org box,,never used,,only took out to test..I also have a pair of ERM-6.2s that I have sitting too,,replaced with Tekton Electron SEs. IF YOUR INTERESTED ?.