KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 3, 2020 1:53:36 GMT -5
AKM DACs are quite neutral... so they sound very much like Analog Devices, or Wolfson, or high end Cirrus Logic DACs. (We think they sound somewhat better than the others - which is why we use them now.)
ESS Sabre DACs have significantly more variation in how they sound... depending on the circuitry they are associated with. At their "least assertive" Sabre DACs sound very much like other high end DACs. At their "most assertive" they tend to strongly emphasize detail... almost as if you were listening through a magnifying glass under a powerful spotlight.
(People who like that effect tend to describe them as "incredibly detailed"; people who don't like it tend to describe them as sounding "etched" or "grainy".)
(The effect is definitely pleasant with some speakers that are somewhat lacking in detail.)
There are several reasons why ESS Sabre DACs have become popular: 1) They have excellent specifications (but no better than other "premium DACs").
2) They include internal circuitry that reduces the effects of jitter much as an external ASRC does (the resampling is done as part of the oversampling process). 3) They have expended a lot of effort in marketing their DACs as "a premium audiophile part" (which means that manufacturers can claim them as a "selling point").
4) The distinct sound that they sometimes exhibit, combined with their marketing, act as excellent product differentiators.
(They have created a perception that "they sound different - and different is better"... and they do in fact sound different.)
Do people seem to prefer the ESS or AKM dacs? These seem to be the most popular right now in devices. What are peoples opinions on them? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 3, 2020 1:59:22 GMT -5
The DC-1 is slightly better than the DAC in the ERC-3... but they are very close.
The DC-1 uses the same excellent DAC chips, in a slightly better mode, which yields slightly better specs. The DC-1 has a somewhat more sophisticated power supply. The DC-1 includes a moderately powerful excellent sounding headphone amplifier.
The DC-1 includes a switchable ASRC for jitter reduction (which wouldn't be a major benefit in a CD player but is useful in an external DAC.) The DC-1 has several digital inputs... and a set of analog inputs (which some people find quite useful).
The DC-1 was an excellent sounding DAC the day it was released... and it still is... Therefore I can;t see how it could ever be claimed to be obsolete... (Although it doesn't include some features that some people want today... and we believe that the new AKM DAC chips do sound slightly better.)
So, is the DC-1 obsolete as a DAC? How does it compare to the ERC-3 DAC? |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 3, 2020 6:43:03 GMT -5
The DC-1 is slightly better than the DAC in the ERC-3... but they are very close.
The DC-1 uses the same excellent DAC chips, in a slightly better mode, which yields slightly better specs. The DC-1 has a somewhat more sophisticated power supply. The DC-1 includes a moderately powerful excellent sounding headphone amplifier.
The DC-1 includes a switchable ASRC for jitter reduction (which wouldn't be a major benefit in a CD player but is useful in an external DAC.) The DC-1 has several digital inputs... and a set of analog inputs (which some people find quite useful). The DC-1 was an excellent sounding DAC the day it was released... and it still is... Therefore I can;t see how it could ever be claimed to be obsolete... (Although it doesn't include some features that some people want today... and we believe that the new AKM DAC chips do sound slightly better.)
So, is the DC-1 obsolete as a DAC? How does it compare to the ERC-3 DAC? The problem as I see it KeithL is that you guys aren’t making/selling ANY DACs currently. No DC-1, no DC-2, no XDA-2, no XDA-3, no Ego’s ,....... no stand-alone DAC’s at all, not a single one. Last week I organised a TA-100 for my son, it should suite his application, he currently lives in a small unit, so small form factor with the DAC, pre amp, and power amps in one box. The relatively low power output shouldn’t be an issue in that size unit, I’ll let you know after it arrives on Wednesday. Personally I would have preferred a DC-2 or XDA-3 and an A-300 power amp, but you don’t sell any DAC’s, so I had to forget that idea. It just seems like a huge hole in Emotiva’s product range. Cheers Gary |
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DAC ?
May 3, 2020 8:42:21 GMT -5
Post by audiobill on May 3, 2020 8:42:21 GMT -5
I understand the RMC-1's dac works ok.
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Post by Jean Genie on May 3, 2020 11:18:14 GMT -5
punctuation could be improved...LOL! Mark But, a hot tub in the kitchen could be fun! Soup's on!😂🍵 |
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DAC ?
May 3, 2020 16:31:01 GMT -5
Post by Gary Cook on May 3, 2020 16:31:01 GMT -5
no stand-alone DAC’s at all, not a single one. I understand the RMC-1's dac works ok. Cheers Gary |
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Post by elmex on Jun 10, 2020 16:45:50 GMT -5
Well gents. I pulled the trigger with the Yggy and I am happy to report that after 2 days of listening to CDs the difference is night and day. I am starting to hear differences that I have never noticed before like cymbals other things that I have not noticed before. My system at work is the ERC-3, Yggy, Schitt Vahalla, and HP-3s. To me it is awesome and a significant improvement:)
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Post by Jean Genie on Jun 10, 2020 22:43:20 GMT -5
"... almost as if you were listening through a magnifying glass under a powerful spotlight."
Do people seem to prefer the ESS or AKM dacs? These seem to be the most popular right now in devices. What are peoples opinions on them? I held my magnifying glass directly to my ear and didn't hear a single note! D'ya think I might need a new spotlight?😂😂😂 |
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Post by SteveH on Jun 11, 2020 18:16:07 GMT -5
Only Mark would have a hot tub in his kitchen...... Great for cooking crawfish and lobster! I don’t see the problem! 😁 You could always throw some hotdogs in the water and have a plate of buns nearby! |
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KeithL
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Posts: 10,256
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DAC ?
Jun 11, 2020 22:21:19 GMT -5
Post by KeithL on Jun 11, 2020 22:21:19 GMT -5
I know... the problem is that we keep changing our minds... mostly about features.
We previewed a prototype DC-2 at the last Emofest several years ago... Everyone who heard it agreed that it sounded really nice (it used the same AKM DACs we use in the XMC-2 and RMC-1)... Unfortunately, we added too many cool features, and ended up with a product that would have had to sell for more than we wanted it to. So we went back to the proverbial drawing board...
We DO plan to have a new mid-priced DAC back in our product line soon... But there are no definite details there yet... no stand-alone DAC’s at all, not a single one. I understand the RMC-1's dac works ok. Cheers Gary |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,256
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Post by KeithL on Jun 11, 2020 22:40:40 GMT -5
OK.... I like visual analogies.... 
People who like the distinct "Sabre DAC sound" generally describe them as sounding "incredibly detailed"... People who don't like them generally use adjectives like "etched" or "grainy"... (And those are exactly the adjectives I would use to describe what a photo looks like when you sharpen it a bit too much in Photoshop.)
"... almost as if you were listening through a magnifying glass under a powerful spotlight." I held my magnifying glass directly to my ear and didn't hear a single note! D'ya think I might need a new spotlight?😂😂😂 |
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Post by audiobill on Jun 12, 2020 3:49:55 GMT -5
I think this "Sabre dac sound" thing may be overblown.
Long a proponent of multibit dacs, even with tube output stages, my new McIntosh c2600 preamp sounds terrific with its Sabre dac.
As has been said before, the implementation of the dac chip is key, so choose from a manufacturer with a strong track record in analog circuit design; it's the first place some companies cheap out while touting specs.
These days, very easy to make a product that measures well; another thing entirely to make one that sounds great.
Not the same thing at all.
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Post by pedrocols on Jun 12, 2020 7:17:36 GMT -5
Never fails...
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klinemj
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Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Jun 12, 2020 11:31:49 GMT -5
I think this "Sabre dac sound" thing may be overblown. Long a proponent of multibit dacs, even with tube output stages, my new McIntosh c2600 preamp sounds terrific with its Sabre dac. As has been said before, the implementation of the dac chip is key, so choose from a manufacturer with a strong track record in analog circuit design; it's the first place some companies cheap out while touting specs. These days, very easy to make a product that measures well; another thing entirely to make one that sounds great. Not the same thing at all. TOTALLY agree...I have Sabre DAC's in 2 devices...my Oppo 105 and my LH Labs Geek...Love the Geek, the Oppo...no thanks, not for 2 channel. Mark |
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Post by vcautokid on Jun 12, 2020 11:41:33 GMT -5
Great for cooking crawfish and lobster! I don’t see the problem! 😁 You could always throw some hotdogs in the water and have a plate of buns nearby! There you go. Now I am a fan of fine hot dogs. Chicago setup is my favorite. Though a Chilli Dog is not far behind. Just look out for the emissions from the exhaust pipe later.  . |
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DAC ?
Jun 12, 2020 11:42:45 GMT -5
Post by vcautokid on Jun 12, 2020 11:42:45 GMT -5
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Post by Gary Cook on Jun 12, 2020 13:58:50 GMT -5
I know... the problem is that we keep changing our minds... mostly about features. We previewed a prototype DC-2 at the last Emofest several years ago... Everyone who heard it agreed that it sounded really nice (it used the same AKM DACs we use in the XMC-2 and RMC-1)... Unfortunately, we added too many cool features, and ended up with a product that would have had to sell for more than we wanted it to. So we went back to the proverbial drawing board... We DO plan to have a new mid-priced DAC back in our product line soon... But there are no definite details there yet... My daughter and son in law needed a DAC for their lounge room, one that could handle multiple inputs, cable box, TV, ATV streamer etc. They already have a BigEgo and Airmotive 4’s in their home office and like their sound a lot. As the family audio guru I was tasked with selecting a DAC for them. An XDA-2 would have suited them, or a DC-1, or their long awaited replacements, obviously no joy trying to buy new so I looked for used. I was lucky, found a DC-1 for sale on here, made the necessary arrangements and it’s now installed, working great and sounding fantastic through a pair of Airmotive 6’s. My view KeithL is that Emotiva had a good 2 tier (price and features) product offering in the XDA-2 and DC-1 and there is a market for both. By all means reach for the sky with the DC-1 replacement but that’s not necessary with the XDA-2 replacement where the KISS principle applies. Not having both is a big gap in the range and the longer it drags on the less people are likely to look to Emotiva for their next (or first) DAC. Cheers Gary |
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Post by audiobill on Jun 12, 2020 14:56:53 GMT -5
KL doesn't like streaming, no dac offerings, and doesn't like vinyl.
I guess that leaves cds, cassettes and 8 tracks....
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DAC ?
Jun 12, 2020 16:19:03 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by elmex on Jun 12, 2020 16:19:03 GMT -5
I know... the problem is that we keep changing our minds... mostly about features. We previewed a prototype DC-2 at the last Emofest several years ago... Everyone who heard it agreed that it sounded really nice (it used the same AKM DACs we use in the XMC-2 and RMC-1)... Unfortunately, we added too many cool features, and ended up with a product that would have had to sell for more than we wanted it to. So we went back to the proverbial drawing board... We DO plan to have a new mid-priced DAC back in our product line soon... But there are no definite details there yet... My daughter and son in law needed a DAC for their lounge room, one that could handle multiple inputs, cable box, TV, ATV streamer etc. They already have a BigEgo and Airmotive 4’s in their home office and like their sound a lot. As the family audio guru I was tasked with selecting a DAC for them. An XDA-2 would have suited them, or a DC-1, or their long awaited replacements, obviously no joy trying to buy new so I looked for used. I was lucky, found a DC-1 for sale on here, made the necessary arrangements and it’s now installed, working great and sounding fantastic through a pair of Airmotive 6’s. My view KeithL is that Emotiva had a good 2 tier (price and features) product offering in the XDA-2 and DC-1 and there is a market for both. By all means reach for the sky with the DC-1 replacement but that’s not necessary with the XDA-2 replacement where the KISS principle applies. Not having both is a big gap in the range and the longer it drags on the less people are likely to look to Emotiva for their next (or first) DAC. Cheers Gary Good point keep it simple stupid. I had a hard time swallowing the over 2k price tag for the Yggy since it doesn’t have all the bells and whistles such as MQA, OLED screens, fancy stickers etc but I can attest that it is a quality product. And it is modular and the company is also direct to the consumer cutting out the middle man. Or women? |
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DAC ?
Jun 12, 2020 17:25:30 GMT -5
Post by garbulky on Jun 12, 2020 17:25:30 GMT -5
My daughter and son in law needed a DAC for their lounge room, one that could handle multiple inputs, cable box, TV, ATV streamer etc. They already have a BigEgo and Airmotive 4’s in their home office and like their sound a lot. As the family audio guru I was tasked with selecting a DAC for them. An XDA-2 would have suited them, or a DC-1, or their long awaited replacements, obviously no joy trying to buy new so I looked for used. I was lucky, found a DC-1 for sale on here, made the necessary arrangements and it’s now installed, working great and sounding fantastic through a pair of Airmotive 6’s. My view KeithL is that Emotiva had a good 2 tier (price and features) product offering in the XDA-2 and DC-1 and there is a market for both. By all means reach for the sky with the DC-1 replacement but that’s not necessary with the XDA-2 replacement where the KISS principle applies. Not having both is a big gap in the range and the longer it drags on the less people are likely to look to Emotiva for their next (or first) DAC. Cheers Gary Good point keep it simple stupid. I had a hard time swallowing the over 2k price tag for the Yggy since it doesn’t have all the bells and whistles such as MQA, OLED screens, fancy stickers etc but I can attest that it is a quality product. And it is modular and the company is also direct to the consumer cutting out the middle man. Or women? I think the Yggy is reasonably priced but not cheap. The DACs in the yggy, of which there are four, are each pretty expensive. At the beginning I believe each DAC chip was over a $200 bucks a pop. It may have come down since then. The tech was proprietary, even the decoding filter because they essentially repurposed a non audio dac to become an audio dac. I think its biggest shortcoming is two fold. It does NOT have a remote for input switching or turning on the power which makes connecting it to multiple devices a hassle. Its user interface is not well thought out. To switch inputs you have to figure out by the tiny indecipherable logo that they put on the input switch is the one you want. You also can't simply press one button but you have to cycle through them to get to the right one. I hope to listen to it someday. If it sounds better than the DC-1 then it would be worth it to me. Right now the DC-1 still occupies the spot of great user friendliness and features coupled to good quality sound. I have heard some DACs do better in particular areas like the Gungnir multibit, but worse in other areas. I haven't heard a DAC beat it in overall sound where I can point to and say this is clearly a better dac. I hope the Yggy will be that DAC but I will still hesitate until they introduce a remote. I have a wife that uses the setup and nobody wants to be getting up off the couch to switch inputs or learning what input controls what. Right now we have the DC-1 configured with my amazon echo dot to switch inputs by voice so it's on a whole another level of user friendliness. Jason has mentioned he is trying to introduce remotes to his devices. So here's hoping. |
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Do people seem to prefer the ESS or AKM dacs? These seem to be the most popular right now in devices. What are peoples opinions on them?
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