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Post by steelman1991 on Apr 11, 2020 7:25:27 GMT -5
C’mon guys.. This just a hobby. No need for this just because you have different opinions. There’s no problem in just increasing the volume. It’s just an inconvinience. But if there’s something wrong with the sound we would all benefit from having it fixed. Regarding Atmos vs DTS:X it is a problem for DTS:X sound tracks if not speaker setup is handled properly by RMC. As I have seen by speaker placement pictures amd desciptions from Dolby and DTS front/rear height as in Dolby setup is not used by DTS. But the top front/rear is called front/rear height by DTS. If Emotiva hasn’t changed the azimuth internally for DTS the sound will be wrong, as quoted by Steelman. Also the +10db lower volume in Neural:X is something Emotiva should check out. Other AVRs or processors do not have this hugh difference in volume. Could be a simple fix with gain or an issue that needs fixing. Either way it would be good if it was checked. Well said and nicely put. As I said in an earlier post I had my overhead speakers set as "Tops" (Dolby set-up). To test (as it's so easy with the RMC-1's OSD), I changed the settings to "Heights" - recommended DTS:X set-up. Is there a difference in the set-ups?, I'm not totally sure. It may be purely "placebo", but I feel that the "Heights" set-up is more dynamic and engaging than the Dolby "Tops" and dare I say it "louder" (with all codecs). It's been reported on other sites that DTS produces more "aggresive" upmixes, opposed to DSU, but there isn't a lot of commentary on the "native DTS:X to Atmos" Sound placements don't seem compromised using either option. Gonna test some more, but if I had to pick an option - at this time for MY set-up it would be "Heights", others MMV, or not be to their liking. That's the beauty of this hobby - there's no real right or wrong, only what satisfies the user.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 11, 2020 9:32:26 GMT -5
C’mon guys.. This just a hobby. No need for this just because you have different opinions. There’s no problem in just increasing the volume. It’s just an inconvinience. But if there’s something wrong with the sound we would all benefit from having it fixed. Regarding Atmos vs DTS:X it is a problem for DTS:X sound tracks if not speaker setup is handled properly by RMC. As I have seen by speaker placement pictures amd desciptions from Dolby and DTS front/rear height as in Dolby setup is not used by DTS. But the top front/rear is called front/rear height by DTS. If Emotiva hasn’t changed the azimuth internally for DTS the sound will be wrong, as quoted by Steelman. Also the +10db lower volume in Neural:X is something Emotiva should check out. Other AVRs or processors do not have this hugh difference in volume. Could be a simple fix with gain or an issue that needs fixing. Either way it would be good if it was checked. I agree with your first statement. On the volume, it would be so ok if all I had to do was turn the volume up or down. I am saddened by anyone that thinks I have an issue with this. What I'm not ok with is having to adjust 4 different trims, and volume, for each and every movie I watch. I've rarely had to touch a trim in my life. In almost every scenario I did, it was to show off a demo and I wanted the bass a little hotter for it. So, why do I suddenly have to do this owning an Emotiva processor? There is clearly a height configuration that DTS:X, and likely the up mixer, does not like. Where were these people screaming "you set your processor up wrong" at for months and months of numerous users complaining about the same issues? It's personal and it's petty. That's the reason I got upset about it. It's childish. Anyways, what is most disappointing is to hear much of nothing out of the Emotiva camp about this nor the Neural X issues. When some communication occurs, it's some lecture about "what is Neural X and why DTS created it. It's rarely a healthy discussion on what is broken, what has been tested, what we think the issue is, and what we are doing to fix it. If my memory serves me correctly, there's " Not at issue to fix" This is the 3rd generation of processor released with years of bug fixing after release. It is more likely than not, based on history, that there are issues. We can all take our gloves off and work together on fixing things or we can not. I'd much rather make some progress so we all can enjoy a stellar product.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 11, 2020 9:34:52 GMT -5
C’mon guys.. This just a hobby. No need for this just because you have different opinions. There’s no problem in just increasing the volume. It’s just an inconvinience. But if there’s something wrong with the sound we would all benefit from having it fixed. Regarding Atmos vs DTS:X it is a problem for DTS:X sound tracks if not speaker setup is handled properly by RMC. As I have seen by speaker placement pictures amd desciptions from Dolby and DTS front/rear height as in Dolby setup is not used by DTS. But the top front/rear is called front/rear height by DTS. If Emotiva hasn’t changed the azimuth internally for DTS the sound will be wrong, as quoted by Steelman. Also the +10db lower volume in Neural:X is something Emotiva should check out. Other AVRs or processors do not have this hugh difference in volume. Could be a simple fix with gain or an issue that needs fixing. Either way it would be good if it was checked. Well said and nicely put. As I said in an earlier post I had my overhead speakers set as "Tops" (Dolby set-up). To test (as it's so easy with the RMC-1's OSD), I changed the settings to "Heights" - recommended DTS:X set-up. Is there a difference in the set-ups?, I'm not totally sure. It may be purely "placebo", but I feel that the "Heights" set-up is more dynamic and engaging than the Dolby "Tops" and dare I say it "louder" (with all codecs). It's been reported on other sites that DTS produces more "aggresive" upmixes, opposed to DSU, but there isn't a lot of commentary on the "native DTS:X to Atmos" Sound placements don't seem compromised using either option. Gonna test some more, but if I had to pick an option - at this time for MY set-up it would be "Heights", others MMV, or not be to their liking. That's the beauty of this hobby - there's no real right or wrong, only what satisfies the user. I agree with you. I'm liking the height configuration way better than my Atmos Enabled. DTS X doesn't sound a ton better, but Atmos and DSU is noticeably better.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Apr 11, 2020 9:53:03 GMT -5
Speaker levels are also affected by the different movie studio mixes. Many of Disney's Marvel UHD discs are well known in this matter, and IMO have a detrimental effect in it's reduced dynamic range and it's reduced master volume. To compensate for the volume, I regularly have to increase my volume by about 10db. I also find other studios have varying levels of volume and dynamics, (Universal/Lionsgate/Paramount/Sony tend to be more pleasing to me) compared to Disney.
It also never occurred to me that some members are using the wrong settings for the immersive channels. At the Emotiva Open House last November, Damon had several classes on setting up the RMC-1/RMC-1L/XMC-2, and he went over the choices for the immersive channels which is why I had assumed I would be using the "Small Front & Small Rear Height" choices when I bought the SVS Prime Elevation speakers for my 7.2.4 setup. I've never tried any of the other options as they're for either actual "In-Ceiling" mounted or the "Atmos Enabled"(those that sit on your front mains and bounce off the ceiling).
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Post by megash0n on Apr 11, 2020 9:59:37 GMT -5
Speaker levels are also affected by the different movie studio mixes. Many of Disney's Marvel UHD discs are well known in this matter, and IMO have a detrimental effect in it's reduced dynamic range and it's reduced master volume. To compensate for the volume, I regularly have to increase my volume by about 10db. I also find other studios have varying levels of volume and dynamics, (Universal/Lionsgate/Paramount/Sony tend to be more pleasing to me) compared to Disney. It also never occurred to me that some members are using the wrong settings for the immersive channels. At the Emotiva Open House last November, Damon had several classes on setting up the RMC-1/RMC-1L/XMC-2, and he went over the choices for the immersive channels which is why I had assumed I would be using the "Small Front & Small Rear Height" choices when I bought the SVS Prime Elevation speakers for my 7.2.4 setup. I've never tried any of the other options as they're for either actual "In-Ceiling" mounted or the "Atmos Enabled"(those that sit on your front mains and bounce off the ceiling). Thank you sir. I will try to start paying more attention to which company produced the disk. It didn't occur to me either until I read pages worth of the same on Denon's website which led me to AVS. I'm glad I know now. It definitely is better, but there is still room from improvement.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Apr 11, 2020 10:05:53 GMT -5
Well said and nicely put. As I said in an earlier post I had my overhead speakers set as "Tops" (Dolby set-up). To test (as it's so easy with the RMC-1's OSD), I changed the settings to "Heights" - recommended DTS:X set-up. Is there a difference in the set-ups?, I'm not totally sure. It may be purely "placebo", but I feel that the "Heights" set-up is more dynamic and engaging than the Dolby "Tops" and dare I say it "louder" (with all codecs). It's been reported on other sites that DTS produces more "aggresive" upmixes, opposed to DSU, but there isn't a lot of commentary on the "native DTS:X to Atmos" Sound placements don't seem compromised using either option. Gonna test some more, but if I had to pick an option - at this time for MY set-up it would be "Heights", others MMV, or not be to their liking. That's the beauty of this hobby - there's no real right or wrong, only what satisfies the user. I agree with you. I'm liking the height configuration way better than my Atmos Enabled. DTS X doesn't sound a ton better, but Atmos and DSU is noticeably better. This to me is interesting as I'm finding the DTS:X movies in my 7.2.4 setup to be quite dynamic and engaging and I don't feel the need to change the output on any of the channel trims. The DTS:X movies I have are the Bourne movies, Harry Potter's, Jurrasic Park's, Atomic Blond, Divergents, Fast & Furious movies, Incredible Hulk & Van Helsing. In my experience, I'm finding varying degrees of differences in the "dynamic ranges" of Dolby Atmos movies I have(as well as the "pinning" to certain channel setups) and I'm finding the DTS:X movies quite consistent in their levels.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 11, 2020 10:29:20 GMT -5
I agree with you. I'm liking the height configuration way better than my Atmos Enabled. DTS X doesn't sound a ton better, but Atmos and DSU is noticeably better. This to me is interesting as I'm finding the DTS:X movies in my 7.2.4 setup to be quite dynamic and engaging and I don't feel the need to change the output on any of the channel trims. The DTS:X movies I have are the Bourne movies, Harry Potter's, Jurrasic Park's, Atomic Blond, Divergents, Fast & Furious movies, Incredible Hulk & Van Helsing. In my experience, I'm finding varying degrees of differences in the "dynamic ranges" of Dolby Atmos movies I have and the DTS:X movies quite consistent in their levels. That's very odd. I would describe something similar, but in the opposite way. I only have a few DTS:X movies, but I do have a demo disc the is entirely DTS:X. This has many different Jurassic clips and a Hulk clip. I will say there is definitely a lot of dynamics, but it just seems off or weird. Like.. It's forced or mismatched in a way. It is often very distracting. Jurassic is not impressive on my end. Anything dialogue related is flat, dull and way quieter. Now, if something explodes, or a gunshot happens for example, that should use the center channel... It does sound appropriate. There just seems to be an imbalance to me between dialogue levels and dynamic scenes which causes one to turn up the volume. The problem with this is that the dynamics get really loud. In my testing this week, I was hitting 100db during dynamic scenes testing Jurassic. While this isnt too loud, it is above the level I typically want to watch a full movie at. For comparison, the non-immersive tracks don't behave this way for me. I do want to check those Potter movies out soon for sure!
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Apr 11, 2020 10:40:52 GMT -5
This to me is interesting as I'm finding the DTS:X movies in my 7.2.4 setup to be quite dynamic and engaging and I don't feel the need to change the output on any of the channel trims. The DTS:X movies I have are the Bourne movies, Harry Potter's, Jurrasic Park's, Atomic Blond, Divergents, Fast & Furious movies, Incredible Hulk & Van Helsing. In my experience, I'm finding varying degrees of differences in the "dynamic ranges" of Dolby Atmos movies I have and the DTS:X movies quite consistent in their levels. That's very odd. I would describe something similar, but in the opposite way. I only have a few DTS:X movies, but I do have a demo disc the is entirely DTS:X. This has many different Jurassic clips and a Hulk clip. I will say there is definitely a lot of dynamics, but it just seems off or weird. Like.. It's forced or mismatched in a way. It is often very distracting. Jurassic is not impressive on my end. Anything dialogue related is flat, dull and way quieter. Now, if something explodes, or a gunshot happens for example, that should use the center channel... It does sound appropriate. There just seems to be an imbalance to me between dialogue levels and dynamic scenes which causes one to turn up the volume. The problem with this is that the dynamics get really loud. In my testing this week, I was hitting 100db during dynamic scenes testing Jurassic. While this isnt too loud, it is above the level I typically want to watch a full movie at. For comparison, the non-immersive tracks don't behave this way for me. I do want to check those Potter movies out soon for sure! I'm sure you've been asked this already, but since I've been working 60+ hour weeks for the last 3 weeks and have had limited time on the Lounge, are you on v1.9 firmware ?
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Post by megash0n on Apr 11, 2020 10:53:55 GMT -5
That's very odd. I would describe something similar, but in the opposite way. I only have a few DTS:X movies, but I do have a demo disc the is entirely DTS:X. This has many different Jurassic clips and a Hulk clip. I will say there is definitely a lot of dynamics, but it just seems off or weird. Like.. It's forced or mismatched in a way. It is often very distracting. Jurassic is not impressive on my end. Anything dialogue related is flat, dull and way quieter. Now, if something explodes, or a gunshot happens for example, that should use the center channel... It does sound appropriate. There just seems to be an imbalance to me between dialogue levels and dynamic scenes which causes one to turn up the volume. The problem with this is that the dynamics get really loud. In my testing this week, I was hitting 100db during dynamic scenes testing Jurassic. While this isnt too loud, it is above the level I typically want to watch a full movie at. For comparison, the non-immersive tracks don't behave this way for me. I do want to check those Potter movies out soon for sure! I'm sure you've been asked this already, but since I've been working 60+ hour weeks for the last 3 weeks and have had limited time on the Lounge, are you on v1.9 firmware ? Holy smokes. What field are you in? Yes sir. I've been on some variation of 1.9 since its release.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 11, 2020 11:14:10 GMT -5
I agree with you. I'm liking the height configuration way better than my Atmos Enabled. DTS X doesn't sound a ton better, but Atmos and DSU is noticeably better. This to me is interesting as I'm finding the DTS:X movies in my 7.2.4 setup to be quite dynamic and engaging and I don't feel the need to change the output on any of the channel trims. The DTS:X movies I have are the Bourne movies, Harry Potter's, Jurrasic Park's, Atomic Blond, Divergents, Fast & Furious movies, Incredible Hulk & Van Helsing. In my experience, I'm finding varying degrees of differences in the "dynamic ranges" of Dolby Atmos movies I have(as well as the "pinning" to certain channel setups) and I'm finding the DTS:X movies quite consistent in their levels. One note to add.. I am running a 5.1.4 configuration. Using Front/Rear heights since the past few days. I do use two subs but only one output from the RMC. I use the balanced center sub output to feed a balanced minidsp which has two subs connected. The minidsp applies filters for the subs. The "virtual sub" is integrated with the left channel using the distance setting for the left channel to ensure an optimal crossover from sub to mains.. The rest of the channels are "time synced" with the left channel if that makes sense. None of this is perfect. It's a novice user's attempt at "in room" correction. I do have custom made 2 inch sound panels at the first and second reflection point on the side walls and the first reflection point on the ceiling. The room could possibly use more treatment, but I haven't spent much time analysing decay and such to determine exactly what I need now. I say all this to point out that I've made a lot of mistakes, and had a lot of misunderstandings for various reasons. We can't all know everything. I'm just trying to make sense of what I hear and reduce things down to the lowest common denominator. I appreciate your help in that capacity.
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Post by hsamwel on Apr 11, 2020 15:18:11 GMT -5
I agree with you. I'm liking the height configuration way better than my Atmos Enabled. DTS X doesn't sound a ton better, but Atmos and DSU is noticeably better. This to me is interesting as I'm finding the DTS:X movies in my 7.2.4 setup to be quite dynamic and engaging and I don't feel the need to change the output on any of the channel trims. The DTS:X movies I have are the Bourne movies, Harry Potter's, Jurrasic Park's, Atomic Blond, Divergents, Fast & Furious movies, Incredible Hulk & Van Helsing. In my experience, I'm finding varying degrees of differences in the "dynamic ranges" of Dolby Atmos movies I have(as well as the "pinning" to certain channel setups) and I'm finding the DTS:X movies quite consistent in their levels. I haven’t played a DTS:X movie for a while now. So I tried Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows part 2. I to found it very dynamic, almost more so than atmos movies in general. Much larger difference between lower sounds and extremely high sounding effects. Dialogue was very good I think. But I felt it was some db’s quieter than atmos. I usually watch movies in -25 db. This movie I felt like turning it up 2-3 db. But no problem with dynamics though. As I wrote, rather the opposit. Atmos feels like it’s always on full load, this movie felt like it goes from quiet to exploading with dynamics when needed. I also have a 7.2.4 setup with four top front and rear speakers. Did try the final fight scene between Voldemort and Harry Potter with the height speakers as both top and height speakers. It felt like it was a bit different. Clearer height effects with them setup as height. But somehow fuller sound with them as top. Can’t actually tell which setup sounded best. For this I have to test alot of more movies and scenes.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
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Post by LCSeminole on Apr 11, 2020 17:09:34 GMT -5
This to me is interesting as I'm finding the DTS:X movies in my 7.2.4 setup to be quite dynamic and engaging and I don't feel the need to change the output on any of the channel trims. The DTS:X movies I have are the Bourne movies, Harry Potter's, Jurrasic Park's, Atomic Blond, Divergents, Fast & Furious movies, Incredible Hulk & Van Helsing. In my experience, I'm finding varying degrees of differences in the "dynamic ranges" of Dolby Atmos movies I have(as well as the "pinning" to certain channel setups) and I'm finding the DTS:X movies quite consistent in their levels. I haven’t played a DTS:X movie for a while now. So I tried Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows part 2. I to found it very dynamic, almost more so than atmos movies in general. Much larger difference between lower sounds and extremely high sounding effects. Dialogue was very good I think. But I felt it was some db’s quieter than atmos. I usually watch movies in -25 db. This movie I felt like turning it up 2-3 db. But no problem with dynamics though. As I wrote, rather the opposit. Atmos feels like it’s always on full load, this movie felt like it goes from quiet to exploading with dynamics when needed. I also have a 7.2.4 setup with four top front and rear speakers. Did try the final fight scene between Voldemort and Harry Potter with the height speakers as both top and height speakers. It felt like it was a bit different. Clearer height effects with them setup as height. But somehow fuller sound with them as top. Can’t actually tell which setup sounded best. For this I have to test alot of more movies and scenes. Just for a basis, the DTS:X movies I listed a few posts back, are normally at a volume of -30db, most of the Dolby Atmos movies are right around where you listen at -25db. Yes I do agree that when Neural:X is engaged with DTS-HD MA 5.1 or 2.0(yes there are a few of these around on blu-ray movies), that I'm having to crank up the volume about 7-10db, but again this is with Neural:X and not DTS:X.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 11, 2020 17:14:25 GMT -5
I haven’t played a DTS:X movie for a while now. So I tried Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows part 2. I to found it very dynamic, almost more so than atmos movies in general. Much larger difference between lower sounds and extremely high sounding effects. Dialogue was very good I think. But I felt it was some db’s quieter than atmos. I usually watch movies in -25 db. This movie I felt like turning it up 2-3 db. But no problem with dynamics though. As I wrote, rather the opposit. Atmos feels like it’s always on full load, this movie felt like it goes from quiet to exploading with dynamics when needed. I also have a 7.2.4 setup with four top front and rear speakers. Did try the final fight scene between Voldemort and Harry Potter with the height speakers as both top and height speakers. It felt like it was a bit different. Clearer height effects with them setup as height. But somehow fuller sound with them as top. Can’t actually tell which setup sounded best. For this I have to test alot of more movies and scenes. Just for a basis, the DTS:X movies I listed a few posts back, are normally at a volume of -30db, most of the Dolby Atmos movies are right around where you listen at -25db. Yes I do agree that when Neural:X is engaged with DTS-HD MA 5.1 or 2.0(yes there are a few of these around on blu-ray movies), that I'm having to crank up the volume about 7-10db, but again this is with Neural:X and not DTS:X. Same with me. My normal listening level is between -16 and 18. I just watched Bad Boys for Life, DTS MA 5.1, and I had to turn it up to -12. -10 is what I would consider "too loud" for extended watching. I will say through, it sounded really good. No issues with dialogue or anything really. Just a volume knob adjustment on this one. Being a fan of this franchise, I thought this movie was excellent by the way. I'm hoping they release another.
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Post by hsamwel on Apr 11, 2020 18:12:27 GMT -5
I haven’t played a DTS:X movie for a while now. So I tried Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows part 2. I to found it very dynamic, almost more so than atmos movies in general. Much larger difference between lower sounds and extremely high sounding effects. Dialogue was very good I think. But I felt it was some db’s quieter than atmos. I usually watch movies in -25 db. This movie I felt like turning it up 2-3 db. But no problem with dynamics though. As I wrote, rather the opposit. Atmos feels like it’s always on full load, this movie felt like it goes from quiet to exploading with dynamics when needed. I also have a 7.2.4 setup with four top front and rear speakers. Did try the final fight scene between Voldemort and Harry Potter with the height speakers as both top and height speakers. It felt like it was a bit different. Clearer height effects with them setup as height. But somehow fuller sound with them as top. Can’t actually tell which setup sounded best. For this I have to test alot of more movies and scenes. Just for a basis, the DTS:X movies I listed a few posts back, are normally at a volume of -30db, most of the Dolby Atmos movies are right around where you listen at -25db. Yes I do agree that when Neural:X is engaged with DTS-HD MA 5.1 or 2.0(yes there are a few of these around on blu-ray movies), that I'm having to crank up the volume about 7-10db, but again this is with Neural:X and not DTS:X. Oh, so you feel DTS:X movies are generally a bit higher in volume than Atmos? Strange, I feel just the opposit. Not by much, just about 2-3 db as I wrote. But I could live with having the same volume. I never use upmixing. Standard DTS and DTS-HD have great volume and dynamics through Surround mode. I mostly do playback at -25 db on most formats. Yes, Neural:X is atleast 7-10 db lower. I would guess it depends on movie. It would be nice if Emotiva could check this. Some feel it has less dynamics as well. But this could just be the lower volume.
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Post by megash0n on May 1, 2020 6:26:55 GMT -5
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Post by Gary Cook on May 1, 2020 7:51:15 GMT -5
Just for clarity, DTS-X does not have a “centre” channel volume, it is a “dialogue“ volume. When we adjust the “dialogue” volume we are NOT adjusting the “centre“ channel volume for anything other than dialogue. If we want to adjust the volume of the sound effects that emanate from the centre speaker then we use the centre channel trim.
Cheers Gary
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Post by megash0n on May 8, 2020 8:42:32 GMT -5
Curious what others on the new platforms think in regards to Dolby and DTS up-mixing. It could just be the content I am playing, but I'm starting to feel like the Dolby up-mixer performs much better than the DTS. In general, I mean the immersion is better or "more discrete" while still being "immersive" if that makes sense. DTS up-mixing seems more muddy. It is also still plagued with having to raise the volume by roughly 10db which could, in itself, be some of the issue. Anyways, just curious what others think. Happy Friday!
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