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Post by leonski on Apr 25, 2020 18:02:53 GMT -5
One thing about MC which has not yet been mentioned but is part of 'buying into' the brand.
They will fix nearly ANYTHING they ever made. Got a 2nd gen MC275? They can fix it.
Now for people who don't know what they want, or have a moving target, this is not the big deal, but IF you are in a place of wanting something
of both durability and class? This is on the short list.
A buddy of mine had one of his JC-1 (Parasound big boy) go bad. Shipped it off and it came back fixed AND No Charge. That's support.
I sent my late 1970s panels back to the manufacturer for some work. The called me and asked what color I wanted the new Sock (grill cloth) to be.
And while they DID charge for the service, after all they WERE 20 years out of warranty, everything was quick and painless.
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Post by theswede on May 21, 2020 9:13:35 GMT -5
I've had mostly top end Onkyos, Yamaha's and some more enthusiastic stuff many years ago when I was a 2 channel digital purist. My XMC-1 started with a XPA-7 for my 5.2 setup and I later added a DR3 for the fronts, the speakers are Dynaudio. The XPA-7 runs the surround speakers and I use 4 channels for the passive subs. I also have a "man cave" with a 5.1 modified Yamaha set up.
Generally I find the Emotiva setup to be very dynamic, it's like your eardrums twist and I can crank it up to fully realistic levels on fireworks for example without any audible distortion. Piano, violin, and acoustic guitars in particularly is super crisp, clean and dynamic. My man cave set up sounds sounds muffled in comparison (even though its still very clean and transparent) as did my previous Onkyo's.
The reason I added the DR3 was when I cranked up the XPA-7 and a crowd cheered and clapped (as they do in concerts) the top end fell apart, this became much better with the DR3. I also felt the top end was not very smooth and refined (even though still very transparent) which also got better with the DR3.
I still think the DR3 have a little of what I found with the XPA-7 and other amps may have a smoother top end but it usually comes with the downside of less dynamics, particularly in the low and mid range and I've come to think that this is really important for a realistic, immersive and engaging audio experience. It's like the difference between the real thing and not.
The Emotiva's still have a very clean and transparent top end and I am not sure if a smoother amp is more correct, it may very well be the the Emotiva's are truer to the source.
I tried a Onkyo PA-MC5501 at one point and even though it was generally smoother it was also very boring and did not not manage to come close to the emotivas in terms of how good I though the audio experience was.
Hope it helps.
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Post by vcautokid on May 21, 2020 9:46:52 GMT -5
The thing to remember is that the DR family is giving you efficiency with that power. Big heavy linear power supplies aren't the only way to get it done. Emotiva is still using push pull differential meaty amplifier stages so the beef is there. It is about smart power management. Also my back and body in general is tired of moving super heavy electronics if more efficient designs get it done. You have to chose what is right for you. Hence, no partisan BS from me one way or the other. Linear Power Supplies aren't going anywhere. BAS-X uses them just fine thank you. It is more than one way of delivering the results. Your mileage may vary.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on May 21, 2020 10:46:09 GMT -5
I've had mostly top end Onkyos, Yamaha's and some more enthusiastic stuff many years ago when I was a 2 channel digital purist. My XMC-1 started with a XPA-7 for my 5.2 setup and I later added a DR3 for the fronts, the speakers are Dynaudio. The XPA-7 runs the surround speakers and I use 4 channels for the passive subs. I also have a "man cave" with a 5.1 modified Yamaha set up. Generally I find the Emotiva setup to be very dynamic, it's like your eardrums twist and I can crank it up to fully realistic levels on fireworks for example without any audible distortion. Piano, violin, and acoustic guitars in particularly is super crisp, clean and dynamic. My man cave set up sounds sounds muffled in comparison (even though its still very clean and transparent) as did my previous Onkyo's. The reason I added the DR3 was when I cranked up the XPA-7 and a crowd cheered and clapped (as they do in concerts) the top end fell apart, this became much better with the DR3. I also felt the top end was not very smooth and refined (even though still very transparent) which also got better with the DR3. I still think the DR3 have a little of what I found with the XPA-7 and other amps may have a smoother top end but it usually comes with the downside of less dynamics, particularly in the low and mid range and I've come to think that this is really important for a realistic, immersive and engaging audio experience. It's like the difference between the real thing and not. The Emotiva's still have a very clean and transparent top end and I am not sure if a smoother amp is more correct, it may very well be the the Emotiva's are truer to the source. I tried a Onkyo PA-MC5501 at one point and even though it was generally smoother it was also very boring and did not not manage to come close to the emotivas in terms of how good I though the audio experience was. Hope it helps. Thank you. I ended up going with the ATI 4003 amp. Like the DR3 the ATI is also fully balanced. So being very familiar with the older Emotiva amps which are very good, I decided to venture out to outside of Emotiva this time. The main reason is that I am a believer in linear aka toroidal transformers. My older brother was an electrical engineer and worked at a place that developed toroidal transformers for Bel Canto and other high end brands and he explained why amp companies use this type years back - all of which I forgot. Anyway, I can safely say the ATI 4000 series is an amazing amp. The clarity is there that’s beyond even the XPR amps that I owned. The power rating is lower but it has all the power that it needs to drive my speakers. I was going to go with the 6000 series but after hearing my speakers with this amp at the dealer, I knew that it would have been a waste of money to go with the 6000 series. Since the DR3 is based on the XPR topology, it’s probably very similar which is to say it’s really really good. But the ATI amp literally sound like those $10000 amps. It’s actually not a surprise since the Mark Levinson 533h is virtually the same amp as the 6003 and retail for $10k. And the 4003 and the 6003 perform virtually the same with the same design. Thanks everyone for your advice. I think I found the amp to keep me happy for at least the next 7 years (ATI’s warranty period). |
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Post by tropicallutefisk on May 21, 2020 12:10:16 GMT -5
Congrats on your purchase. I am certain you will be very satisfied. I heard a 6002 with a pair of Maggie 0.7s at a dealer a couple years back and was extremely impressed.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 21, 2020 12:39:55 GMT -5
Just for the record.....
When your buddy was expounding on the virtues of toroidal transformers....I suspect he was comparing them to non-toriodal transformers... (Toriodal transformers tend to have lower impedance, lower losses, and much lower flux leakage, compared to other types.)
Back in those days, the benefits of switch mode power supplies were far less distinct... and you just didn't see them in audio amplifiers.
In those days, SMPS were already more efficient than transformer-based designs, but the difference was less significant... And, to be quite honest, their increased complexity also made them a lot more expensive and somewhat less reliable... However, modern SMPS supplies are even more efficient, and they are now equal to or even more reliable than transformer-based designs. (Our current model has proven to be more reliable.) They are also a LOT lighter... which reduces shipping costs... and the potential for shipping damage.
They are also regulated... which is something you just won't find in a linear power supply in a power amplifier. (Power supplies in preamps are always regulated... but is is still impractical to make a big enough regulated supply to run a power amp.)
However, from what I've heard, the ATI is a nice amp, and I'm sure you'll be quite happy with it. 
I've had mostly top end Onkyos, Yamaha's and some more enthusiastic stuff many years ago when I was a 2 channel digital purist. My XMC-1 started with a XPA-7 for my 5.2 setup and I later added a DR3 for the fronts, the speakers are Dynaudio. The XPA-7 runs the surround speakers and I use 4 channels for the passive subs. I also have a "man cave" with a 5.1 modified Yamaha set up. Generally I find the Emotiva setup to be very dynamic, it's like your eardrums twist and I can crank it up to fully realistic levels on fireworks for example without any audible distortion. Piano, violin, and acoustic guitars in particularly is super crisp, clean and dynamic. My man cave set up sounds sounds muffled in comparison (even though its still very clean and transparent) as did my previous Onkyo's. The reason I added the DR3 was when I cranked up the XPA-7 and a crowd cheered and clapped (as they do in concerts) the top end fell apart, this became much better with the DR3. I also felt the top end was not very smooth and refined (even though still very transparent) which also got better with the DR3. I still think the DR3 have a little of what I found with the XPA-7 and other amps may have a smoother top end but it usually comes with the downside of less dynamics, particularly in the low and mid range and I've come to think that this is really important for a realistic, immersive and engaging audio experience. It's like the difference between the real thing and not. The Emotiva's still have a very clean and transparent top end and I am not sure if a smoother amp is more correct, it may very well be the the Emotiva's are truer to the source. I tried a Onkyo PA-MC5501 at one point and even though it was generally smoother it was also very boring and did not not manage to come close to the emotivas in terms of how good I though the audio experience was. Hope it helps. Thank you. I ended up going with the ATI 4003 amp. Like the DR3 the ATI is also fully balanced. So being very familiar with the older Emotiva amps which are very good, I decided to venture out to outside of Emotiva this time. The main reason is that I am a believer in linear aka toroidal transformers. My older brother was an electrical engineer and worked at a place that developed toroidal transformers for Bel Canto and other high end brands and he explained why amp companies use this type years back - all of which I forgot. Anyway, I can safely say the ATI 4000 series is an amazing amp. The clarity is there that’s beyond even the XPR amps that I owned. The power rating is lower but it has all the power that it needs to drive my speakers. I was going to go with the 6000 series but after hearing my speakers with this amp at the dealer, I knew that it would have been a waste of money to go with the 6000 series. Since the DR3 is based on the XPR topology, it’s probably very similar which is to say it’s really really good. But the ATI amp literally sound like those $10000 amps. It’s actually not a surprise since the Mark Levinson 533h is virtually the same amp as the 6003 and retail for $10k. And the 4003 and the 6003 perform virtually the same with the same design. Thanks everyone for your advice. I think I found the amp to keep me happy for at least the next 7 years (ATI’s warranty period). |
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2020 17:02:02 GMT -5
no one has yet mentioned any DISadvantages of Toroids. They do have issues, you know........
As for SMPS being so 'efficient'? I don't know that it matters in a system that from plug to speaker output is maybe 1% or 2% efficient overall.
D amps maybe quite efficient at FULL POWER but that drops a lot when used in a real system at normal levels.
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
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Post by Lsc on May 21, 2020 17:13:23 GMT -5
Congrats on your purchase. I am certain you will be very satisfied. I heard a 6002 with a pair of Maggie 0.7s at a dealer a couple years back and was extremely impressed. Thank you. I think “satisfied” is the appropriate word as listening to music is more satisfying than ever before. I can’t recommend it enough and it complements my Revels perfectly. I’m glad I have a buddy who does all kinds of research and leads me in the right direction. He recommended it 2 years ago but I didn’t believe him. Well I’m a believer now  . |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on May 21, 2020 17:22:23 GMT -5
Just for the record..... When your buddy was expounding on the virtues of toroidal transformers....I suspect he was comparing them to non-toriodal transformers... (Toriodal transformers tend to have lower impedance, lower losses, and much lower flux leakage, compared to other types.) Back in those days, the benefits of switch mode power supplies were far less distinct... and you just didn't see them in audio amplifiers.
In those days, SMPS were already more efficient than transformer-based designs, but the difference was less significant... And, to be quite honest, their increased complexity also made them a lot more expensive and somewhat less reliable... However, modern SMPS supplies are even more efficient, and they are now equal to or even more reliable than transformer-based designs. (Our current model has proven to be more reliable.) They are also a LOT lighter... which reduces shipping costs... and the potential for shipping damage.
They are also regulated... which is something you just won't find in a linear power supply in a power amplifier. (Power supplies in preamps are always regulated... but is is still impractical to make a big enough regulated supply to run a power amp.)
However, from what I've heard, the ATI is a nice amp, and I'm sure you'll be quite happy with it.
Thanks Keith - I am very happy with the amp and I understand what you are saying but only time will tell if the audio guys adapt to the SMPS power supplies. Unfortunately, I am a stubborn goat and probably will not in the foreseeable future. |
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2020 19:58:21 GMT -5
I've had mostly top end Onkyos, Yamaha's and some more enthusiastic stuff many years ago when I was a 2 channel digital purist. My XMC-1 started with a XPA-7 for my 5.2 setup and I later added a DR3 for the fronts, the speakers are Dynaudio. The XPA-7 runs the surround speakers and I use 4 channels for the passive subs. I also have a "man cave" with a 5.1 modified Yamaha set up. Generally I find the Emotiva setup to be very dynamic, it's like your eardrums twist and I can crank it up to fully realistic levels on fireworks for example without any audible distortion. Piano, violin, and acoustic guitars in particularly is super crisp, clean and dynamic. My man cave set up sounds sounds muffled in comparison (even though its still very clean and transparent) as did my previous Onkyo's. The reason I added the DR3 was when I cranked up the XPA-7 and a crowd cheered and clapped (as they do in concerts) the top end fell apart, this became much better with the DR3. I also felt the top end was not very smooth and refined (even though still very transparent) which also got better with the DR3. I still think the DR3 have a little of what I found with the XPA-7 and other amps may have a smoother top end but it usually comes with the downside of less dynamics, particularly in the low and mid range and I've come to think that this is really important for a realistic, immersive and engaging audio experience. It's like the difference between the real thing and not. The Emotiva's still have a very clean and transparent top end and I am not sure if a smoother amp is more correct, it may very well be the the Emotiva's are truer to the source. I tried a Onkyo PA-MC5501 at one point and even though it was generally smoother it was also very boring and did not not manage to come close to the emotivas in terms of how good I though the audio experience was. Hope it helps. I'm not about to try to decypher your equipment list, but it is just possible that your speakers simply won't produce the loudness you want at the higher frequencies. From 10khz on UP, for example, you need maybe 20% or so of the total power your system can produce. Really not much. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 21, 2020 23:43:18 GMT -5
The reality is that most unregulated power supplies, including the linear variety, are actually pretty efficient.... Therefore, the difference in efficiency between between a plain old unregulated power supply, and an SMPS, is not all that significant....
Now, if you want a fully regulated power supply, the story is very different.... Fully regulated linear power supplies are rather inefficient.... They're used in preamps, because they're important for a preamp.... And, since preamps use very little power, their efficiency doesn't matter very much.
However, a fully regulated linear power supply big enough to run a power amp would be very heavy, very expensive, and generate a lot of heat....
This is why they are rarely used in power amps (except some very old, very heavy, and very expensive models).... However, with an SMPS, being fully regulated is essentially part of the design package, so they are practical to use in power amps. (The importance of using a regulated power supply in a power amp is open for debate... but it is "technologically the best way to do it".)
Now, a Class D amplifier, is a different matter entirely.... (we're talking about a Class D output stage).... A Class A/B amplifier, at its absolute most efficient point, can approach about 70% efficiency.... but is far worse at most other operating points. In contrast, except at extremely low power levels, a Class D amplifier is going to be somewhere between 80% and about 95% efficient. (And, at an output level of 1 watt, who really cares if 50% of that 1 watt ends up as heat.)
Also note that either type of amplifier can have either type of power supply. Our old XPA Gen2 amps were Class A/B amps with linear power supplies... Our new XPA Gen3 and XPA-DR models are Class H (Class A/B) amps with an SMPS.... And our PA-1 is a Class D amp with an SMPS....
no one has yet mentioned any DISadvantages of Toroids. They do have issues, you know........ As for SMPS being so 'efficient'? I don't know that it matters in a system that from plug to speaker output is maybe 1% or 2% efficient overall. D amps maybe quite efficient at FULL POWER but that drops a lot when used in a real system at normal levels. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on May 22, 2020 7:57:49 GMT -5
I don’t care much about this efficiency aspect of amps. What sounds better? I tend to stay with the tried and true but now they are coming up with the more efficient type of amps that sound as good. Unfortunately a lot of them are just as expensive.
The ATI is as much as I’d like to pay for amps. So for it’s performance level, I’d say it was quite a bargain.
Fully balanced electronics - I like the sound of that. No pun intended 😊.
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Post by theswede on May 22, 2020 12:25:35 GMT -5
I've had mostly top end Onkyos, Yamaha's and some more enthusiastic stuff many years ago when I was a 2 channel digital purist. My XMC-1 started with a XPA-7 for my 5.2 setup and I later added a DR3 for the fronts, the speakers are Dynaudio. The XPA-7 runs the surround speakers and I use 4 channels for the passive subs. I also have a "man cave" with a 5.1 modified Yamaha set up. Generally I find the Emotiva setup to be very dynamic, it's like your eardrums twist and I can crank it up to fully realistic levels on fireworks for example without any audible distortion. Piano, violin, and acoustic guitars in particularly is super crisp, clean and dynamic. My man cave set up sounds sounds muffled in comparison (even though its still very clean and transparent) as did my previous Onkyo's. The reason I added the DR3 was when I cranked up the XPA-7 and a crowd cheered and clapped (as they do in concerts) the top end fell apart, this became much better with the DR3. I also felt the top end was not very smooth and refined (even though still very transparent) which also got better with the DR3. I still think the DR3 have a little of what I found with the XPA-7 and other amps may have a smoother top end but it usually comes with the downside of less dynamics, particularly in the low and mid range and I've come to think that this is really important for a realistic, immersive and engaging audio experience. It's like the difference between the real thing and not. The Emotiva's still have a very clean and transparent top end and I am not sure if a smoother amp is more correct, it may very well be the the Emotiva's are truer to the source. I tried a Onkyo PA-MC5501 at one point and even though it was generally smoother it was also very boring and did not not manage to come close to the emotivas in terms of how good I though the audio experience was. Hope it helps. I'm not about to try to decypher your equipment list, but it is just possible that your speakers simply won't produce the loudness you want at the higher frequencies. From 10khz on UP, for example, you need maybe 20% or so of the total power your system can produce. Really not much. I am pretty sure they can, it's sort of part of the Dynaudio's DNA (hence the name) but either way the 20% is beside the point unless you bi-amp as any sound artifacts will also be a result of all the other frequencies the amps are working with. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on May 22, 2020 13:13:20 GMT -5
^^^ I don’t think it’s related to the Dynaudio speakers at all.
I’m very familiar with Emotiva amps or were since me and my buddies have had virtually every generation and across various lines. UPA, XPA, XPR, Gen1 & Gen 2. Like you said Emotiva is known to be dynamic but the refinement is not as strong. The XPR amps had refinement and power.
So if the DR3 is like the XPR amps, I’d expect it to be smooth and powerful and clearly superior to the XPA gen3.
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Post by leonski on May 22, 2020 13:30:32 GMT -5
First, Swede? GREAT job on the OLED TV. I have the B6 in the LR and it gets good reviews from those who can SEE the difference. Coupled with my Magnepan speaker'd stereo, TV watching is very good, indeed.
But I must say I'm ALWAYS leery (suspicious would be way too far) of 'modified' speakers. In Magnepan Land their are half a dozen schools of thought ranging up to and including ADDING the NEO 8 tweeter, complete
reframing, new crossovers, Active or Passive line level crossovers and anything ELSE you can think of. It's crazy land at the Magnepan DIY zone. I'm thinking of a book...'The Complete Magnepan MOdifier'......
So I must ask about goals, and results. I realize that modified could be anything from the simple upgrade (boy what a rabbit hole!) of a crossover cap, to the addition of multiple amps and LL crosovers.
As for 'sound artifacts'? Are you referring to IMD? or plain Harmonic Distortion? Amps NOT driven to distortion should produce clean results to the limits of the speakers. I think that's right, isn't it?
Minute amounts of distortion should remain inaudible up to a level DEPENDING on frequency. At the very lowest end, for example, the human ear is very INsensitive to such distortion.
The other reason for me being leery is the idea of 'Top End Onkyo....or even Yamaha'. Yamaha HAS made some neat stuff. I think a buddy up in Idaho still uses his with some JBL 12" 3-way....Maybe the L100?
Dynaudio has a flawless reputation. And has been around for years. Do they still sell drivers to OEM manufacturers?
Enjoy your system.
Lsc is right. Efficiency is not very relevent UNLESS you are heading for High Power pure (or mostly) Class 'A' amps which will KILL your airconditioning bill in summer and heat the house in winter!
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