Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 19, 2020 18:19:48 GMT -5
So I’m on the fence among these 3 amps.
I may also be looking at three DR1s especially with the 30% Emotiva deal.
Has anyone have a chance to compare these 3 amps?
Also between the 4003 & 6003 does anyone know if the 6003 is worth the extra cost?
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Post by leonski on Apr 19, 2020 19:47:44 GMT -5
Only YOU can say if more $$$ for a similar amp adds value for YOU.
You have enough spekaers that I doubt you need HUGE amounts of power. You should also consider multiple power drops so you dont' 'starve' any amps when
you start to crank it up. Take the $$$ you WERE going to spend on 'more' amplifier and get an electrician to drop you a 20 amp circuit for JUST the main amplifiers.
I will state categorically that you do not NEED monoblocks. Regardless of the theoretical and largelay unrealized 'advantages'. I know someobody who just went to a Parasound A31 from EMO......and is quite taken.
It is a personal opinion but I have my reasons for avoiding amps with Switcher PS.
How sensitive are your speakers that you NEED more that 200 x 3 ? Stereophile agrees with the Revel 'spec' for sensitivity which is pretty 'middle of the road'. When combined IN SYSTEM, you should easily be able
to get evicted from your COUNTY with any of the amplifiers you specify. I would suggest that in SOME cases, less might be more.
I would be slightly more concerned with Timbre matching of teh rear JBL and POLK speakers with the front Revel......
Good job with the OLED. I have a B6 which is about the best picture I've ever seen in a home display. MAYBE Pioneer KURO or the last Panasonic Plasma.....but not really.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 19, 2020 21:10:21 GMT -5
Only YOU can say if more $$$ for a similar amp adds value for YOU. You have enough spekaers that I doubt you need HUGE amounts of power. You should also consider multiple power drops so you dont' 'starve' any amps when you start to crank it up. Take the $$$ you WERE going to spend on 'more' amplifier and get an electrician to drop you a 20 amp circuit for JUST the main amplifiers. I will state categorically that you do not NEED monoblocks. Regardless of the theoretical and largelay unrealized 'advantages'. I know someobody who just went to a Parasound A31 from EMO......and is quite taken. It is a personal opinion but I have my reasons for avoiding amps with Switcher PS. How sensitive are your speakers that you NEED more that 200 x 3 ? Stereophile agrees with the Revel 'spec' for sensitivity which is pretty 'middle of the road'. When combined IN SYSTEM, you should easily be able to get evicted from your COUNTY with any of the amplifiers you specify. I would suggest that in SOME cases, less might be more. I would be slightly more concerned with Timbre matching of teh rear JBL and POLK speakers with the front Revel...... Good job with the OLED. I have a B6 which is about the best picture I've ever seen in a home display. MAYBE Pioneer KURO or the last Panasonic Plasma.....but not really. The rears will be hopefully rectified soon when I get 2 more F12s but I’m stuck with these darn in ceiling ambient speakers. So my Atmos experience isn’t ideal with the JBLs. I added 2 - 20 amp circuits so I use those for audio and the 15 amp circuit for video and everything else (lights, blu ray player etc). My need is for the front 3 speakers having the best quality amplification and having enough power for stereo music listening. Right now I’m leaning towards the 6003 but if that’s overkill then I just wasted money. Maybe buying 1 DR1 will give me a good idea then I can decide to buy 2 more or go with the ATI. With the emo promotion, the DR1s are in the ball park. If I get the DR3 then it’s a big savings. If I was able to listen to all these amps side by side then I can make a decision pretty easily but in this day and age that’s not very easy to do. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Apr 19, 2020 22:10:07 GMT -5
The 6003 weighs 97 pounds. Ouch! 😳
Russ
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Post by vcautokid on Apr 19, 2020 22:52:35 GMT -5
As said above only you can determine whether or not they are worth the extra cost. I am a fan of ATI and have been for some time.I have never seen anything sideways about them. The 6003 is a very solid amplifier. No two ways about it. Will the DR or current XPAs compete? Maybe, maybe not. They are certainly two different beasts for the burden put to them. An amplifier unlike a computer anything will be with you a long time and should serve you well. Say oh like 20 years. If that is the case where it will be with you that long, the more robust design will have a better chance. We're all grown ups here so I am not going to tell you how you spend your money. All I know, I grew up in a time where over built anything lasts. Your call. Make it one you can live with for a long time.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 19, 2020 23:37:39 GMT -5
The 6003 weighs 97 pounds. Ouch! 😳 Russ That’s a good thing for me. My XPR2 weighs 95 lbs and even this old Sherbourn 7/2100 weighs 100-115 lbs. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 19, 2020 23:43:35 GMT -5
As said above only you can determine whether or not they are worth the extra cost. I am a fan of ATI and have been for some time.I have never seen anything sideways about them. The 6003 is a very solid amplifier. No two ways about it. Will the DR or current XPAs compete? Maybe, maybe not. They are certainly two different beasts for the burden put to them. An amplifier unlike a computer anything will be with you a long time and should serve you well. Say oh like 20 years. If that is the case where it will be with you that long, the more robust design will have a better chance. We're all grown ups here so I am not going to tell you how you spend your money. All I know, I grew up in a time where over built anything lasts. Your call. Make it one you can live with for a long time. Yes. I did just realize that I crossover my mains and center at 70hz. So my sub is doing the heavy lifting and the PB16 better since it weighs almost 175 lbs. So if I was doing 2 channel with no sub then maybe the 6003 is more in line with that arrangement, but since it’s not I may be able to get away with the 4003. I’d really like to give Emotiva a try but like you are saying I want these amps to last at least 10 years and I think the ATI has a 7 year warranty. I’ll probably order the 6003 tomorrow just for the peace of mind and wait for whenever California is back working again! But the 4003 sure seems like the wiser decision where I’m not wasting money for what appears to be 1.5dB - why is it so overbuilt (6000 vs 4000 series)? |
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Post by leonski on Apr 20, 2020 0:20:57 GMT -5
It is a MYTH that 'all the power demands are in the bass'..... The 50:50 power point is about 350hz. Based on charts I've seen, power needed for 70hz DOWN is maybe 15% and no more than 20% of the TOTAL available. Of course, the sensitivity of the sub plays a part. A sub of say.......3db HIGHER sensitivity than the main speakers AVERAGE, will use about 1/2 the chart indicated power. sound-au.com/bi-amp.htm#power_distRead section 1.3 than continue into section 1.4 If you are feeling particularly ambitious? Just read the whole darn thing! |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 20, 2020 9:59:20 GMT -5
It is a MYTH that 'all the power demands are in the bass'..... The 50:50 power point is about 350hz. Based on charts I've seen, power needed for 70hz DOWN is maybe 15% and no more than 20% of the TOTAL available. Of course, the sensitivity of the sub plays a part. A sub of say.......3db HIGHER sensitivity than the main speakers AVERAGE, will use about 1/2 the chart indicated power. sound-au.com/bi-amp.htm#power_distRead section 1.3 than continue into section 1.4 If you are feeling particularly ambitious? Just read the whole darn thing! Thanks! All this is too technical for me but it’s good to know that the other frequencies require some watts too. My buddy who has an ATI 4005 is saying it’s all we need as we have the same Revel F208 / C208 speakers. So now I’m undecided on going with 6003 or 4003. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 20, 2020 14:23:12 GMT -5
Lsc
2 take aways.....
First? 50:50 power point is good to keep in mind. Check out the chart in the link I provided. Easy material when taken slowly.
Second? In NO case should you assign less than maybe 10% of the total power to a given frequency band. Be it highest or lowest.
My panels have a crossover about 600hz. I subtract a LITTLE power since I have a sub and low-cut the main speaker about 50 or 60hz.
So the amps being identical per 'way' would seem to work well. Next step to gain the Nth degree of additional benefit would be to go to
an ACTIVE line-level crossover. A MiniDSP which has several advantages.....
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 20, 2020 14:44:09 GMT -5
Lsc 2 take aways..... First? 50:50 power point is good to keep in mind. Check out the chart in the link I provided. Easy material when taken slowly. Second? In NO case should you assign less than maybe 10% of the total power to a given frequency band. Be it highest or lowest. My panels have a crossover about 600hz. I subtract a LITTLE power since I have a sub and low-cut the main speaker about 50 or 60hz. So the amps being identical per 'way' would seem to work well. Next step to gain the Nth degree of additional benefit would be to go to an ACTIVE line-level crossover. A MiniDSP which has several advantages..... Leonski, what language are you speaking in? 😂. I don’t plan on biamping my speakers. I crossover my subs at 70hz. I don’t think ATI is even open right now which means at least 6-8 week wait. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 21, 2020 1:45:40 GMT -5
I was merely addressing ANOTHER hifi myth. That Bass requires 'a lot of power'.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 21, 2020 2:33:21 GMT -5
I was merely addressing ANOTHER hifi myth. That Bass requires 'a lot of power'. Hi leonski - Your own figures argue with your conclusion. Even if your figures are accurate, the 350 Hz. "50/50 point" for power DOES mean that from the subwoofer crossover point on up, significant power will still be needed. But even the 15 to 20% amplifier load from 70 Hz. on down still IS "a lot of power." And although it is "only" 15-20% of the wattage needed, it is significantly more than that percentage of the current needed. Furthermore, the most reactive parts of the speaker impedance are often in that "70 Hz. on down" range. The speakers' current and reactivity demands stress your amplifier significantly. Further, your claims have NOTHING to do with the subwoofer's sensitivity. Being self-powered, subwoofers can be adjusted by their plate gain adjustments to work with the most inefficient speaker all the way up to Klipschorns. Given the above, I contend that "the bass requires a lot of power" is definitely NOT "another hifi myth." Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 21, 2020 5:35:47 GMT -5
I spoke to a dealer yesterday and looks like I narrowed down my choices.
Maybe you guys already know this but this was new information for me. It turns out that my Revel F208/C208 speakers are relatively easy to drive. So between the 4003 and 6003, the 4003 would be all I need to drive my speakers. I was told the Ultima line like the salon2 is a difficult load and those require 6003. The 6003 has more output devices and can handle a difficult load better than the 4003.
The dealer is also an Emotiva dealer and so it looks like the DR3 is a strong choice and would have no issues driving my speakers.
So that was the lesson I learned. Looks like the 4003 is more than good enough and getting the 6003 would be wasting money. Of course knowing this I may still be leaning towards the 6003 😊.
Also while not the best reason, I’ve had Emotiva amps for a while so just wanting to try something different is factoring in my decision. ATI also has a 7 year warranty that gives me peace of mind too (for 2 more years)
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Post by creimes on Apr 21, 2020 11:16:18 GMT -5
I spoke to a dealer yesterday and looks like I narrowed down my choices. Maybe you guys already know this but this was new information for me. It turns out that my Revel F208/C208 speakers are relatively easy to drive. So between the 4003 and 6003, the 4003 would be all I need to drive my speakers. I was told the Ultima line like the salon2 is a difficult load and those require 6003. The 6003 has more output devices and can handle a difficult load better than the 4003. The dealer is also an Emotiva dealer and so it looks like the DR3 is a strong choice and would have no issues driving my speakers. So that was the lesson I learned. Looks like the 4003 is more than good enough and getting the 6003 would be wasting money. Of course knowing this I may still be leaning towards the 6003 😊. Also while not the best reason, I’ve had Emotiva amps for a while so just wanting to try something different is factoring in my decision. ATI also has a 7 year warranty that gives me peace of mind too (for 2 more years) If you have the funds get the 6003, heck your future proofed for your new speakers then  Cheers, Chad |
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Post by leonski on Apr 21, 2020 12:05:53 GMT -5
I was merely addressing ANOTHER hifi myth. That Bass requires 'a lot of power'. Hi leonski - Your own figures argue with your conclusion. Even if your figures are accurate, the 350 Hz. "50/50 point" for power DOES mean that from the subwoofer crossover point on up, significant power will still be needed. But even the 15 to 20% amplifier load from 70 Hz. on down still IS "a lot of power." And although it is "only" 15-20% of the wattage needed, it is significantly more than that percentage of the current needed. Furthermore, the most reactive parts of the speaker impedance are often in that "70 Hz. on down" range. The speakers' current and reactivity demands stress your amplifier significantly. Further, your claims have NOTHING to do with the subwoofer's sensitivity. Being self-powered, subwoofers can be adjusted by their plate gain adjustments to work with the most inefficient speaker all the way up to Klipschorns. Given the above, I contend that "the bass requires a lot of power" is definitely NOT "another hifi myth." Cordially - Boomzilla One mitigating factor? Subs are typically, at least the 'Big Box' versions.....of fairly high sensitivity. Powered subs are a cool invention. But since you are not likely to buy a smaller amp simply because you are going to cross your mains over at something well above LF cutoff, the whole thing I think may be moot. Sheesh. I just made the mistake of adding up my system power. 4x200 for the mains. And 250 for the sub. Once this Covid-19 virus blows over, I just HAVE to get to LA and listen to the Kllipsch Forte.... We must also sort of agree on what the bass frequenies ARE. While 80hz down, like most HT crossovers might be the upper limit for many.....my setup is far lower. Higher starts getting into localization problems. And those who continue to use the mains speakers Full Range can pretty much ignore the whole thing! Buy the amp you need. Don't you agree most OVER estimate the amount of power they need and use? I doubt anyone would try to parse the power that finely. And I also recognize that if you want a certain BRAND....Be it anything from EMO to PASS, you buy what they sell.....What's on offer is what you must buy. My only wish is for people to avoid buying WAY more than they need. I almost wish I could go back to the days when 10 watts a side could get you evicted from the STATE...... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 21, 2020 14:01:35 GMT -5
...Once this Covid-19 virus blows over, I just HAVE to get to LA and listen to the Kllipsch Forte.... Yeah - I'll be looking to audition both the Forte and the Cornwall IV. We must also sort of agree on what the bass frequenies ARE. While 80hz down, like most HT crossovers might be the upper limit for many.....my setup is far lower. Higher starts getting into localization problems. I'm currently running 70 Hz. and am satisfied. And those who continue to use the mains speakers Full Range can pretty much ignore the whole thing! Or not - there may be overlap between where the mains roll off and the subs roll off. If so, you'll get a big bass hump in the frequency response at the overlap section. Buy the amp you need. Don't you agree most OVER estimate the amount of power they need and use? Agreed, wholeheartedly - But due to the type of distortion at clipping (and approaching clipping) I'd normally recommend twice the solid state power that I would with tube power. But the good news is that solid state power is increasingly inexpensive. I almost wish I could go back to the days when 10 watts a side could get you evicted from the STATE...... Get those Fortes and you're there again! |
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Post by leonski on Apr 21, 2020 16:17:32 GMT -5
I just dumped my answer and have to start OVER! crap.
Forte doesn't NEED a lot of power. Good sensitivity. I'd like to give it a try with the AmpCampAmp by DIYAudio / Pass. Single ended Class 'A'.
I have my crossovers....Low and High well below 80hz. My sub CAN'T be found by ear. I also have a 'gap' between the frequencies so overlap is minimal
but the SUM should be fairly flat thru the passband. At least that's the idea. Maybe one day, I'll try an Open Baffle type?
Power neeeded and perhaps TYPE (SS or Tube) depends a LOT on the speaker. Highly reactive might be a problem for tube gear. Or even HUGE impedance swings. Or even the tendency
of Electrostats to be VERY capacitive at highest octave or so. Regardless of the fact that power demands drop drastically with frequency rise.
Amp distortion is one of those funny things. My original Carver Cube was I think rated at 1/2% while a LOT of tube stuff, I suspect including the ST70 were higher. Nobody complained. I think
residual noise matter, especialy with high sensitiity sepakers AND the differences between different topologies. I don't like some of the EMO amps because of the weird rating. Sure, THEY say it doubles
up at 4ohms, but at 1% distortion. That wouldn't work with my panels. On 'Loud Music Day'.....30 watt with 300 watt peaks? Clearly into audible distoriton (10db peaks).
So I'm careful with THAT sort of thing. Me? Even though I'd need help, maybe a pair of class 'A' Pass monoblocks. or a pair of the older XA30.5 stereo.....with one per speaker AND an active crossover?
Given the near-6db power of the XA3.5 and my listening habits? I doubt I'd even move the bias meter.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Apr 21, 2020 17:27:01 GMT -5
I just dumped my answer and have to start OVER! crap. Forte doesn't NEED a lot of power. Good sensitivity. I'd like to give it a try with the AmpCampAmp by DIYAudio / Pass. Single ended Class 'A'. Are you talking about the Forte III? Is the sensitivity on that rated at 99dB like the Forte II? I’ve had the Forte II since like 1994 and used them until 2013 when I got my Revel F208. While the F208 is a much better speaker in terms of accuracy, the dynamics of the Forte II is still unrivaled. I used to switch out the speakers every now and then. And even with the Forte II, they sounded the best with my XPR2. I’m sure it didn’t use a lot of watts but my XPR2 has been my best amp to date (not talking about watts). |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Apr 21, 2020 17:44:46 GMT -5
I spoke to a dealer yesterday and looks like I narrowed down my choices. Maybe you guys already know this but this was new information for me. It turns out that my Revel F208/C208 speakers are relatively easy to drive. So between the 4003 and 6003, the 4003 would be all I need to drive my speakers. I was told the Ultima line like the salon2 is a difficult load and those require 6003. The 6003 has more output devices and can handle a difficult load better than the 4003. The dealer is also an Emotiva dealer and so it looks like the DR3 is a strong choice and would have no issues driving my speakers. So that was the lesson I learned. Looks like the 4003 is more than good enough and getting the 6003 would be wasting money. Of course knowing this I may still be leaning towards the 6003 😊. Also while not the best reason, I’ve had Emotiva amps for a while so just wanting to try something different is factoring in my decision. ATI also has a 7 year warranty that gives me peace of mind too (for 2 more years) Just because I'm curious, how much is your dealer asking for the 4003 & 6003 ? |
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