|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 29, 2020 22:38:00 GMT -5
I don't know why, but increasingly, modern tube products brought to market sound more and more like solid state. KeithL has mentioned repeatedly that one CAN make tube products with equivalent specs to solid state products - it just costs more. But my question is WHY manufacturers would want to do that? If you want solid-state sound, buy a solid-state product and be done with it! Recent tube products (and I'm primarily talking preamplifiers, here) from companies such as Audio Research, McIntosh, Schiit, and others sound virtually indistinguishable from solid-state. You might (but only might) be able to tell the difference in the mythical double-blind test, but I'm suspecting that most couldn't. Not only preamplifiers, but also tube buffers lack tube sound. The Foz SSX that I recently listened to had very little "tube sound" to it at all. The Jolida Glass FX buffer that I had before that sounded solid-state mostly as well. I'm looking for an inexpensive tube buffer that SOUNDS LIKE TUBES. Does anyone know of a company that makes one? What sound am I shooting for? My 1970's Frank-Van-Alstine modified Dynaco PAS hit home runs every time I played it (with an Adcom GFA-1 solid-state power amp). It had slightly less wooly bass than the stock PAS, but other than that, it was the epitome of tube romance. I want that sound occasionally. Anyone know of a tube buffer that would do that? Thanks - Boomzilla |
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Apr 30, 2020 0:25:57 GMT -5
About the only thing I heard that was if you say tube sounded was a Conrad Johnson MV60 amplifier. Running a pair of easy to drive speakers, gave you the tube sound. Discontinued though. Jadis is another one I found had the tube magic but it still had precision without the solid state taste. Hideously expensive, but that was what I heard that really was tube to me that floated my boat.
|
|
|
|
Post by mauriceminor on Apr 30, 2020 9:50:20 GMT -5
Nelson Pass gave away several dozen of these at last year's Burning Amp.
Information can be found in the Articles section at www.FirstWatt.com
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,348
|
Post by DYohn on Apr 30, 2020 9:58:33 GMT -5
In your mind, what do tubes sound like?
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 30, 2020 10:21:28 GMT -5
In your mind, what do tubes sound like? Midrange oriented, but still with extended treble. (Sometimes) not the ultimate in bass tightness. Absolutely no glare or screech to vocals (no edginess). A more natural sound than many solid-state amps I've heard. Complimentary to horn loaded loudspeakers. Exceptional soundstage width and depth. |
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Apr 30, 2020 10:27:22 GMT -5
A very easy on the ears even order harmonic crooner. Never grates, never is pushy. Not necessarily entirely accurate but you did ask what tubes sound like to me in my empty headed mind.  |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,348
|
Post by DYohn on Apr 30, 2020 10:44:13 GMT -5
You are both describing characteristics that can be more present in tube gear than in solid state, but that absolutely depends on the designer's intent and also on the rest of the gear in the system (especially the source and the loudspeakers.) Tubes are not magical "smoothness generators" and can be as aggressive and grating as anything else. Listen to a tube guitar amplifier. Usually the sound quality difference is subtle indeed, and the differences between tubes are often more significant that the difference between "tubes" and "solid state."
So basically you want something that is more present and warm than you currently have. I recommend replacing your loudspeakers first.
|
|
|
|
Post by jackfish on Apr 30, 2020 10:58:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Apr 30, 2020 12:19:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by rbk123 on Apr 30, 2020 13:58:16 GMT -5
I recommend replacing your loudspeakers first. Don't worry, he will. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Apr 30, 2020 14:46:01 GMT -5
In your mind, what do tubes sound like? Midrange oriented, but still with extended treble. (Sometimes) not the ultimate in bass tightness. Absolutely no glare or screech to vocals (no edginess). A more natural sound than many solid-state amps I've heard. Complimentary to horn loaded loudspeakers. Exceptional soundstage width and depth. Mann, if I didn’t know the topic, I would be sure you were describing loudspeaker characteristics. I’ve always believed that most of the adventures audiophiles go on are the result of being inherently dissatisfied with the reproduction they’re getting from the loudspeaker. The tube adventure?? I’m just gonna make up some numbers for arguments sake......1000 to one maybe (your choice of speakers as opposed to the number of tube amp/preamp/buffer options. It’s a daunting task....the prospect of dumping your mains in lieu of something else especially today with fewer places to get around to for auditioning but the rewards are great. Bill |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 30, 2020 17:46:46 GMT -5
A friend has loaned me this (again):  |
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Apr 30, 2020 19:02:52 GMT -5
To me modern tubes do not sound tubey. The good NOS ones do. The Yaqin buffer I bought from you got 6 new Mundorf capacitors and a set of 1950s Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Altou still not really tubey sounding it works wonders on those poorly recorded, overly compressed CDs that I would otherwise never listen to.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 9,941
|
Post by KeithL on Apr 30, 2020 23:42:05 GMT -5
That sums it up pretty well....... Tubes inherently have different distortion characteristics than solid state circuitry.
For one thing, at least in many circuits, tubes tend to produce more second harmonics, and fewer higher harmonics, and many people find this pleasing. For another thing tube circuits tend to have what is technically referred to as "a monotonic distortion curve". This is a fancy way of saying that, as you turn them up, solid state circuits tend to remain very clean, then clip suddenly... In contrast, with many tube circuits, the distortion starts out a bit higher, but increases gradually and linearly as you increase the level... (And, since our hearing tends to associate distortion with perceived loudness, the effect is a sort of "psychoacoustic dynamic range expander".) However, the overall way a circuit sounds depends both on the devices you start with, and the circuitry you use them in. If you use a relatively simple circuit, with little feedback, you will hear more of what the devices you use sound like... And, if you use a more sophisticated circuit, with lots of feedback, it will tend to remove those differences, and make all devices sound more neutral, and more the same.... (You can build an op-amp using tubes... and, if you do, it will sound very much like a solid state op-amp.)
The reality is that many modern tube devices are intended for "people who think the idea of tubes sounds"... And so, other than producing a pleasant warm glow, don't really sound much like a vintage tube circuit...
It's also worth noting that, while some of the subtle parts of "tube sound" come from the preamp tubes and their circuitry, and a tube preamp or buffer can give you these... SOME of the characteristics people associate with tubes are the result of a low damping factor and the distortions that occur in output transformers... And those characteristics, especially the ones related to the interaction between the amp and speakers, will only occur in a tube power amplifier with output transformers. You are both describing characteristics that can be more present in tube gear than in solid state, but that absolutely depends on the designer's intent and also on the rest of the gear in the system (especially the source and the loudspeakers.) Tubes are not magical "smoothness generators" and can be as aggressive and grating as anything else. Listen to a tube guitar amplifier. Usually the sound quality difference is subtle indeed, and the differences between tubes are often more significant that the difference between "tubes" and "solid state." So basically you want something that is more present and warm than you currently have. I recommend replacing your loudspeakers first. |
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on May 1, 2020 8:08:36 GMT -5
"And those characteristics, especially the ones related to the interaction between the amp and speakers, will only occur in a tube power amplifier with output transformers."
Of course there is always McIntosh.
|
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on May 1, 2020 8:12:17 GMT -5
"Of course there is always McIntosh."
Always has been and likely always will be.
|
|
