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Post by conmoto on May 7, 2020 8:11:37 GMT -5
I use either 4s or Stealth 8 monitors via DC-1. I've recently added a subwoofer and would like the ability to adjust high pass filter to the mains. The sub has it's own management (SB-3000). I've looked at inline crossovers, not interested, especially because there aren't XLR options.
1) If I connect Source-->DC-1-->XSP-1 (XLR) will I get the benefits of the DC-1 DAC plus the sonic/adjustability benefits of the XSP-1? Audio tech is mysterious to me. I never know if certain components can be connected to reap the sum of their respective characteristics.
2) I understand (hear) how DACs improve the final product, but I don't understand the significance of a good preamp. How does the XSP-1 improve sound above what is produced by the DC-1?
3)If all I want is to have adjustability of high pass crossover, is there a better solution? I like the small footprint of the DC-1. I love ribbon tweeters, but on rare occasion they can be fatiguing. Will the XSP-1 allow me to adjust the tweeter?
I use my SL-1200mk2 turntable with my old Sansui from time to time, so I imagine I'd benefit from the phono section.
Thanks in advance for your input.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on May 7, 2020 8:24:15 GMT -5
For number 2: a good pre-amp does nothing to the sound of the incoming source. So the best pre-amp would be invisible to the sound of the DC-1 (like it wasn't even there). Any change in sound would be coloration of the sound and is generally frowned upon.
For number 1: The XSP-1 has ±3db of bass/treble trims available and high/low pass filters. This would be the only thing you would/should gain (no pun intended) adding the XSP-1 to your system.
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Post by leonski on May 8, 2020 12:09:54 GMT -5
For number 2: a good pre-amp does nothing to the sound of the incoming source. So the best pre-amp would be invisible to the sound of the DC-1 (like it wasn't even there). Any change in sound would be coloration of the sound and is generally frowned upon. For number 1: The XSP-1 has ±3db of bass/treble trims available and high/low pass filters. This would be the only thing you would/should gain (no pun intended) adding the XSP-1 to your system. While true, I suspect the 'Daisy Chaining' of too much stuff will result in NOISE in the system. It may reach audible and objectionable levels. For a crossover? See if something like a MiniDSP would work? www.minidsp.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqrG-8uCk6QIVNT6tBh1VOA4_EAAYASAAEgJdVPD_BwE |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on May 8, 2020 12:25:18 GMT -5
For number 2: a good pre-amp does nothing to the sound of the incoming source. So the best pre-amp would be invisible to the sound of the DC-1 (like it wasn't even there). Any change in sound would be coloration of the sound and is generally frowned upon. For number 1: The XSP-1 has ±3db of bass/treble trims available and high/low pass filters. This would be the only thing you would/should gain (no pun intended) adding the XSP-1 to your system. While true, I suspect the 'Daisy Chaining' of too much stuff will result in NOISE in the system. It may reach audible and objectionable levels. For a crossover? See if something like a MiniDSP would work? www.minidsp.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqrG-8uCk6QIVNT6tBh1VOA4_EAAYASAAEgJdVPD_BwEI use a XDA-2 going to my Sherborn Pre-1 as all my sources are digital. I use the Pre-1 simply for the trims and volume control. I use the XSP-1 in HT Bypass to run a hybrid 2-channel system. I agree that it's best to have all the sources go through as little deviations as possible before amplification. |
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Post by garbulky on May 8, 2020 21:02:42 GMT -5
I found the XSP-1 to be a really nice preamp. However, on the best amp I've heard (the XPA-1 gen 2), and also headphones, I realized that the XSP-1 did mask subtle details, mainly in the treble and bass. In my opinion your speaker system is easily able to keep up with the detail task, however your room may not be condusive to hearing these differences. Mine wasn't until I treated the room. So you may or may not hear this slight masking effect.
So for me, what that did was I couldn't hear the "air" or space as clearly defined as I could without the XSP-1. With the DC-1 direct to the XPA-1 gen 2 I was able to close my eyes and visualize the dimensions of the recording venue, while with the XSP-1 I could not hear those cues. Keep in mind this is obviously very subtle and depends on the recording.
The DC-1 was simply clearer direct to the amps without the XSP-1 in the loop. So if I were you, I would use your subs on the very low end and the bring them in to try and "blend" with the speakers running full range from the DC-1. You can accomplish this a variety of ways, one way is to simply use a Y-splitter on the XLR outputs and adjust the subs crossover that way. If that doesn't work, then the XSP-1 would be a nice choice. On anything but the XPA-1 gen 2, I couldn't hear any negative difference between the DC-1 and the XSP-1. For instance with an older Emotiva UPA-2 I felt the XSP-1 felt nice and punchy with a really nice soundstage and I thought it benefitted there.
Another excellent way to improve the soudn quality is simply to purchase a second subwoofer. This smoothens out the effect of the room on the bass. I have seen several times the improvement a second sub-woofer makes on the sound quality, and it is a great addition, even to a full range setup. It's almost like a high quality room treatment in and of itself.
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Post by leonski on May 8, 2020 21:54:23 GMT -5
IMO a 2nd sub would or COULD 'cloud' the issue. Depending on the size / shape of the room a single sub, crossed LOW enough should simply disappear. Mine does.
When you switch the sub 'off' while playing music, the sound field tends to collapse inwards. You want the response to be correct at the listening position, not 'in room' which
is a very daunting task.
I HATED it when my mains were running full-range and the improvemeent with the low-cut OF them was dramatic. And more musical.
Gar is, however, correct, in that better rooms ARE better. And could potentially make a merely 'good' system Very Good.
To Conmoto?
If you want a phono section? MANY add-on choices from adequate to superlative. Reasonably priced versions can be had we are very nice, indeed. Try a VERY detailed adjusment of your speaker position IF you find the tweeters a little much.
It's better than introducing potentially damaging 'tone controls' which may be of broad and overboard action. MiniDSP has in some cases 5 parametric bands PER input and output with which to 'tune' things in. Gently, if you will.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 8, 2020 23:17:37 GMT -5
I run 4's (home office) and 6's (family room) full range with sub woofers blended in below them. Not a problem, the low pass takes a bit of fine tuning and the rooms are not terrible acoustically.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by leonski on May 9, 2020 1:35:24 GMT -5
I run 4's (home office) and 6's (family room) full range with sub woofers blended in below them. Not a problem, the low pass takes a bit of fine tuning and the rooms are not terrible acoustically. Cheers Gary I had kind of a opposite result. Bass with mains full range and sub was muddy. After I lo-cut the mains ABOVE the crossover frequency used by the sub (maybe a 10hz to 15hz 'gap') things got much better. Room is, I think, bass kind. 8 walls. Ceiling is 11' + in the ridge running Off Center down the length. Very asymmetric! Downside? My DEN, where I'm sitting right now was awful and sounded like you were in a 55gallon drum. When I moved the sub to the other side, behind the RH speaker and away near the front wall and no other, it got GOOD. Den now sounds 'normal'..... For Gary? Couple questions? Crossover point / slope of the sub? Low extension of the mains, or maybe the 6db down point? Your mains may just roll off high enough to prevent much interference w/Sub....... |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 9, 2020 17:00:14 GMT -5
I run 4's (home office) and 6's (family room) full range with sub woofers blended in below them. Not a problem, the low pass takes a bit of fine tuning and the rooms are not terrible acoustically. I had kind of a opposite result. Bass with mains full range and sub was muddy. After I lo-cut the mains ABOVE the crossover frequency used by the sub (maybe a 10hz to 15hz 'gap') things got much better. Room is, I think, bass kind. 8 walls. Ceiling is 11' + in the ridge running Off Center down the length. Very asymmetric! Downside? My DEN, where I'm sitting right now was awful and sounded like you were in a 55gallon drum. When I moved the sub to the other side, behind the RH speaker and away near the front wall and no other, it got GOOD. Den now sounds 'normal'..... For Gary? Couple questions? Crossover point / slope of the sub? Low extension of the mains, or maybe the 6db down point? Your mains may just roll off high enough to prevent much interference w/Sub....... Answers from memory; With the 4’s in the home office, 10” sub in a sealed enclosure, Soundstream driver, located under a long L shaped desk, not in a corner, 200 watt Class AB power amp, DIY pre amp, 12 dB slope, around 60 hz cross, phase 90 degrees. Not that great a room acoustically, but it works for near field listening which suites the home office. There are a couple of old blankets rolled up into cylinders under the desk that dampen the boom/echo a lot. With 6’s in the family room, 12” sub in a DIY ported enclosure, Sony driver, located in a corner with a bass trap behind, (family room opens out to the kitchen and dining room, so it’s not a “box”) 400 watt DIY Class AB power amp, 24 dB slope, around 45 hz cross, no phase adjustment. The 6’s & sub are currently on loan to a friend of mine, who has fallen on hard times and music helps cheer him up. The set up process for both was pretty similar, listen for a few weeks before adding sub, determine best speaker positioning, then run REW and confirm roll off measures the way it sounds, add in sub with guessed settings and listen for a few more days (weeks more likely), making a few tweaks along the way, then confirm with REW, tweak a little more if required. Cheers Gary |
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Post by leonski on May 10, 2020 15:03:19 GMT -5
Gary,
Sounds like you really did the work.
I'm not a REW guy at Low Frequencies, though, but that's neither here-nor-there. My understanding of room physics tells me that
some problems exist. Repeatability and simply getting a microphone to respond 25hz or 30hz maybe an issue.
If I were setup to do such measurements, I'd repeat 'em a bunch of times from the lower limit to maybe 300hz or so and see what the
influencers were. If I simply STOOD between sub and mic? Or faced the mic BACKWARDS? Raise it 2 feet. Lower?
That sort of thing.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 10, 2020 15:24:48 GMT -5
Gary, Sounds like you really did the work. I'm not a REW guy at Low Frequencies, though, but that's neither here-nor-there. My understanding of room physics tells me that some problems exist. Repeatability and simply getting a microphone to respond 25hz or 30hz maybe an issue. If I were setup to do such measurements, I'd repeat 'em a bunch of times from the lower limit to maybe 300hz or so and see what the influencers were. If I simply STOOD between sub and mic? Or faced the mic BACKWARDS? Raise it 2 feet. Lower? That sort of thing. I really rely on my ears mostly, I’m confident enough in my experiences to recognise when something isn’t right. Probably more accurately, “not to my tastes”. REW is more used to confirm that I’m not missing something, than slavishly following what it is saying. The home office in particular isn’t very REW friendly, with the 4’s an arm’s length away and the sub located under the long desk not far from the outstretched feet. Moving the microphone a few mm’s up and down changes the measurements noticeably. Cheers Gary |
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