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Post by thezone on May 16, 2020 0:37:03 GMT -5
Hi all,
I have a Yamaha CD-S2000 with the 1792 Burr Brown DAC and I'm wondering if the AKM AK4490 Verita DACs in the XMC-2 which I have just ordered will have a superior sound?
Cheers
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 16, 2020 1:45:44 GMT -5
There are a few things you need to consider in the context of that question.... The first is that most modern "high performance" DAC chips are capable of delivering really accurate and uncolored sound.
With a few notable and deliberate exceptions there is only one "absolutely neutral rendition of the original digital data".
(So, as more and more DAC chips become able to approach this goal more and more closely, they tend to sound more alike.) The other is that the sound of a device that incorporates a specific DAC chip is not only defined by the way that particular chip sounds. In fact the reverse is true; things like the power supply, and the associated analog circuitry, also affect the way the entire device sounds. (And, as DAC chips have become "more perfect", and sound more alike, the importance of those other subtle factors increases.) The upshot of all this is that you need to consider the entire device and not just the DAC chip which they happen to use.
Most of us here at Emotiva who express an opinion consider the AKM4490 DAC chips to sound superior to the DAC chips we used in the XMC-1... Most of us also consider them to sound superior to the various ESS Sabre DAC chips ... And, when we offered some of our customers an opportunity to compare them to the AD1955 chips we used in our older DACs (under more or less similar conditions)... Most folks who heard both at the last EmoFest we held several years ago clearly preferred the sound of the AKM DACs ... However you need to consider that.... 1) Differences between DAC chips themselves are very subtle - and several things, like the specific filter option chosen, can make make them sound slightly different. 2) Things like the design of the power supply, and of the associated analog circuitry, also make a major difference, and possibly a bigger difference than the DAC chip itself.
3) And, of course, in most situations, the quality of the source material itself is usually the limiting factor anyway.
I can honestly say that I've never heard a device whose DAC I thought sounded better than the AKM 4490..... (in an equal comparison). Personally, therefore, I would expect the XMC-2 to sound at least as good, and probably just slightly better.
(However, to be fair, I've never heard the Yamaha CD-S2000.)
I did run across a few, shall we say, less than glowing reviews of the Yamaha...... although, considering the flowery language involved, I can't take them too seriously... 
Hi all, I have a Yamaha CD-S2000 with the Burr Brown DAC and I'm wondering if the AKM AK4490 Verita DACs in the XMC-2 which I have just ordered will have a superior sound? Cheers |
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Post by thezone on May 16, 2020 3:56:10 GMT -5
Thank Keith, I guess "better" sounding is in the eye of the beholder and really I will find out when I get it! With terms like "queasy rhythm management" one must take those reviews with a pinch of salt. While Ive got you here are you able to please answer my question in Keith's Corner I posted a while black? XMC-2 USB Input Question |
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Post by thezone on May 16, 2020 7:31:27 GMT -5
Actually that leads me to my next question. If the DAC in the XMC-2 is "better" or sounds better to me than the DAC in my CD S2000, then is there any benefit in playing the cd's using the CD player as opposed to playing the same ripped CD from my HTPC using JRiver MC? I understand that the high precision transport mechanism in the CD S2000 is designed to reduce jitter and the power supplies for each stage are internally separated to reduce circuit noise but if the rip is bit perfect and the DAC conversion is done by the XMC-2 would there be any difference in the sound?
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Post by bolle on May 16, 2020 7:35:42 GMT -5
Well there would be the AK4493, 4497, 4498 and 4499... I don´t own a XMC-2 but a XMC-1 as well as a Topping DX3 Pro (AK4493) with a separate linear power supply as well as a preamp with a Cirrus Logic DAC and also a Pioneer PD-91 with its own BB-based DAC. As Keith said, the DAC itself isn´t everything but the implementation is also quite important. The Cirrus Logic is to my ears a step down from the rest but between the DX3 Pro, the XMC-1 and the PD-91 it would be hard for me to determine a winner. They sound different, yes, but better or worse...? For example the PD-91 is quite old but has a very good implementation, power supply etc. so it still holds up nicely. In your case I would just test what sounds better to your ears and use that. EDIT: HDMI does introduce its own jitter problems, so I would at least test out HDMI vs. Toslink when using a HTPC. Also jitter comes from the chain, not the source material. So if your HTPC has a low quality power supply, poorly designed mainboard etc - yes there could be differences. But in reality I guess even if they are measurable differences you normally shouldn´t hear a difference between playing back a ripped lossless image with e.g. foobar2000 and the actual CD. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2020 16:43:32 GMT -5
I've noticed that it's more that the number on the chip or type of chip that makes a difference. I do NOT like the 2 channel sound from my Oppo, but I love the sound of my LH Labs DAC. Both have Sabre 9018 ESS chips...the difference in sound in dramatic.
Mark
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Post by thezone on May 16, 2020 18:06:19 GMT -5
Thanks guys I will also be using the USB Stream, function of the XMC-2 from the HTPC so that should eliminate jitter.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on May 17, 2020 20:27:18 GMT -5
What about the Big Ego vs the XMC2 DAC?
I was thinking of buying the 3.5mm to XLR male adapter to test it out.
But I don’t want to waste my money - even though it’s only $17 or so.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 18, 2020 0:26:27 GMT -5
I'm inclined to prefer the AKM DACs over the DACs in the Big Ego...
Also, because the Big Ego is USB-powered, it relies on both the power and ground provided by the USB connection...
And, to be honest, the ground connection you get with a 1/8" jack isn't quite as robust as the ground you get with even RCA connectors... (The grounds of the two systems are connected together through both an 1/8" audio connector and a mini-USB cable.... )
This is never an issue with headphones, which are isolated, but can sometimes be an issue with AC-powered devices.
From my experience, when you're connecting a DAC to an AC-powered audio system, you tend to have fewer ground and power noise issues with an AC-powered DAC.
However, to my ear, if you've got a good connection, and don't end up with power or ground noise issues.... the Big Ego sounds awfully close... (We're talking about the sort of subtle differences you won't notice unless you actually switch directly back and forth between them.)
What about the Big Ego vs the XMC2 DAC? I was thinking of buying the 3.5mm to XLR male adapter to test it out. But I don’t want to waste my money - even though it’s only $17 or so. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on May 18, 2020 1:24:58 GMT -5
I'm inclined to prefer the AKM DACs over the DACs in the Big Ego... Also, because the Big Ego is USB-powered, it relies on both the power and ground provided by the USB connection...
And, to be honest, the ground connection you get with a 1/8" jack isn't quite as robust as the ground you get with even RCA connectors... (The grounds of the two systems are connected together through both an 1/8" audio connector and a mini-USB cable.... )
This is never an issue with headphones, which are isolated, but can sometimes be an issue with AC-powered devices.
From my experience, when you're connecting a DAC to an AC-powered audio system, you tend to have fewer ground and power noise issues with an AC-powered DAC.
However, to my ear, if you've got a good connection, and don't end up with power or ground noise issues.... the Big Ego sounds awfully close... (We're talking about the sort of subtle differences you won't notice unless you actually switch directly back and forth between them.)
What about the Big Ego vs the XMC2 DAC? I was thinking of buying the 3.5mm to XLR male adapter to test it out. But I don’t want to waste my money - even though it’s only $17 or so. Thanks for sharing your insight Keith. My buddy has the Denafrips Terminator and it’s the best DAC I’ve ever heard so if I want to improve on the XMC2 then it looks like it’s gonna be a significant investment. So, If the XMC2 is better than the big ego then there is no point. Thank you again! No need to experiment. The XMC2 sounds better than ever. EDIT: they dropped the price on the cable so I guess I’ll try for $hits & grins. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on May 20, 2020 17:02:11 GMT -5
I'm inclined to prefer the AKM DACs over the DACs in the Big Ego... Also, because the Big Ego is USB-powered, it relies on both the power and ground provided by the USB connection...
And, to be honest, the ground connection you get with a 1/8" jack isn't quite as robust as the ground you get with even RCA connectors... (The grounds of the two systems are connected together through both an 1/8" audio connector and a mini-USB cable.... )
This is never an issue with headphones, which are isolated, but can sometimes be an issue with AC-powered devices.
From my experience, when you're connecting a DAC to an AC-powered audio system, you tend to have fewer ground and power noise issues with an AC-powered DAC.
However, to my ear, if you've got a good connection, and don't end up with power or ground noise issues.... the Big Ego sounds awfully close... (We're talking about the sort of subtle differences you won't notice unless you actually switch directly back and forth between them.)
Thanks for sharing your insight Keith. My buddy has the Denafrips Terminator and it’s the best DAC I’ve ever heard so if I want to improve on the XMC2 then it looks like it’s gonna be a significant investment. So, If the XMC2 is better than the big ego then there is no point. Thank you again! No need to experiment. The XMC2 sounds better than ever. EDIT: they dropped the price on the cable so I guess I’ll try for $hits & grins. So I got my 3.5mm to XLR male cables and did my test. Winner = XMC2’s DAC. More detail - it was a clear difference. The XMC2 was more like my buddy’s Denafrips Terminator and the Big Ego was more like his Bluesound’s DAC. Testing concluded 😊. The XMC2 is a hella processor. |
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Post by routlaw on May 21, 2020 10:53:32 GMT -5
I can honestly say that I've never heard a device whose DAC I thought sounded better than the AKM 4490..... (in an equal comparison). Personally, therefore, I would expect the XMC-2 to sound at least as good, and probably just slightly better.
(However, to be fair, I've never heard the Yamaha CD-S2000.)
All this discussion regarding the merits of the AKM 4490 chip begs the question, why did Emotiva not use this DAC chip in the newly redesigned ERC-4 CDP? Its not that the ERC-4 doesn't perform well, it does but its also worth noting too the Oppo 203 also uses the AKM 4490 chip though I'm not convinced it outperforms the ERC-4 in stand alone redbook cd. I look forward to your reply. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 21, 2020 12:18:29 GMT -5
The short answer there is that the ERC-4 was designed by a different engineer... and he chose the other chip. They are both excellent DAC chips with similar technical performance...
The way engineering design works in real life is that, when you set out to design a new product, you make the best choice at the time...
So, when we set out to design our new processors, the engineering group involved chose the AKM4490...
(Because we considered it to be the best sounding option available at the time that fit the requirements.)
I believe that, in the case of the ERC-4, we simply continued to use the same DAC board design that had worked well in other products. (Because, since it worked so well, there was insufficient reason to entirely redesign it.)
There is rarely a part that is "so good that you stop using everything else"...
And, while our latest line of high-end processors were in fact literally "designed mostly from scratch", that is not the case with most other products.
I've got to repeat this.... The differences we're talking about here, between high performance DAC chips, are really tiny.... Smaller than the differences between different remasters of the same CD... And probably smaller than the differences between the microphone preamps used to record different tracks on the same CD... We consider the fact that the ERC-4 sounds really good to be important... However, we don't consider the fact that it happens to use a different DAC chip to achieve that goal an especially big deal...
(And I urge you not to do so either....) I can honestly say that I've never heard a device whose DAC I thought sounded better than the AKM 4490..... (in an equal comparison). Personally, therefore, I would expect the XMC-2 to sound at least as good, and probably just slightly better.
(However, to be fair, I've never heard the Yamaha CD-S2000.)
All this discussion regarding the merits of the AKM 4490 chip begs the question, why did Emotiva not use this DAC chip in the newly redesigned ERC-4 CDP? Its not that the ERC-4 doesn't perform well, it does but its also worth noting too the Oppo 203 also uses the AKM 4490 chip though I'm not convinced it outperforms the ERC-4 in stand along redbook cd. I look forward to your reply. |
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Post by doc1963 on May 21, 2020 12:28:13 GMT -5
I can honestly say that I've never heard a device whose DAC I thought sounded better than the AKM 4490..... (in an equal comparison). Personally, therefore, I would expect the XMC-2 to sound at least as good, and probably just slightly better.
(However, to be fair, I've never heard the Yamaha CD-S2000.)
All this discussion regarding the merits of the AKM 4490 chip begs the question, why did Emotiva not use this DAC chip in the newly redesigned ERC-4 CDP? Its not that the ERC-4 doesn't perform well, it does but its also worth noting too the Oppo 203 also uses the AKM 4490 chip though I'm not convinced it outperforms the ERC-4 in stand along redbook cd. I look forward to your reply. Just a small correction... the UDP-203 uses the AK4458VN which is a small step down in performance from the 4490. But your assessment remains valid. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on May 21, 2020 15:19:31 GMT -5
What about the replacement for the AK4490, the AK4493?
And also, what about the idea of fusion their Flagship AK4499 for the Left and Right channels for high-end Stereo listening?
Casey
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