EmoBrent
Emo Staff 
Processor and Product Support
Posts: 54
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Post by EmoBrent on Jun 28, 2022 12:21:46 GMT -5
I really can't say too much about HDMI boards, but HDMI 2.1 is not imminent with this release, I will just say that. Development has continued on HDMI 2.1 as we have been working on the next firmware, and they go hand in hand in some ways, even if HDMI 2.1 is not ready. As far as fixes with the next code, CEC and ARC are just night and day better in most cases. As one who spends hours troubleshooting this and doing the dance to get it working, I know how it can be with some TVs. I would say that is the biggest improvement overall in the new code from an overall daily use perspective. I will be excited to get feedback in the field in full-time use, but so far I am very happy with it. There are some other, less obvious changes to the code in the background that have made it overall more stable, especially regarding HDMI and the DSP staying on the same page, etc. At least that is the intent and has been my experience with beta code versions. Some of these changes are what have delayed this code, trying to address the overall stability of the processors, especially regarding HDMI, and I think it will be worth the wait. Other minor fixes are likely incorporated, but a more comprehensive list will be available with the official release. I have probably already said too much, but that is my take on the next code. Can you say anything on new DD and DTS upmixers? Not coming in this code release, next up on the list, and work is already underway. Especially tricky considering that these are not just new upmixers but should also allow cross-platform use between Dolby and DTS. So Dolby source material needs to be properly decoded by DTS mixers, and vice versa. But that is in the works already and going well from what I know being outside of the engineering room. |
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
Posts: 54
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Post by EmoBrent on Jun 28, 2022 12:23:19 GMT -5
I did as you suggested and the clicks did disappear for my TV Box, while switching channels - at least for the period of testing.
But of course - I hate it when it's no longer lip sync (there's a reason for this feature).
so you found out whats causing the issue - and I hope there's a fix for this very soon.
I do not have other issues - made some work around for everything (like - Do not use ARC etc)
but hey - if the next FW does also contain some updates or features, bring it on.
I wonder if a setting of 1ms would work? You know, I had that same thought and tried it, and it seemed to mitigate the issue some, but larger values seemed to make more of an improvement in initial testing, so that is what I am suggesting, as it does not seem to affect the actual lipsync regardless. |
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
Posts: 54
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Post by EmoBrent on Jun 28, 2022 12:27:49 GMT -5
I wonder if a setting of 1ms would work? For me, nothing less than the 100 worked out - so I went back to the original setting to have pic and tone sync again. In your case, did the lip sync setting visibly alter the A/V sync when you set it to 100+? As in, the audio and video became out of sync? In my testing, this adjustment has helped with ticks/pops but has not altered the actual A/V sync, even if I set it to the max of 250mSec. If you were getting a visible change in the lip sync when you adjusted, can you let me know the specific make/model of source devices this was with? Just trying to gather as much data as possible as we look into this. Thanks. |
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
Posts: 54
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Post by EmoBrent on Jun 28, 2022 12:37:27 GMT -5
Regarding recent discussions about ARC/eARC and Atmos, you can get DD+ with an Atmos metadata layer with just regular ARC from most streaming apps on most TVs. This is how Atmos is sent from streaming devices like Roku, Shield, FireTV, and I still don't really buy that the Apple TV is sending TrueHD with discreet Atmos channel info even though they flag it that way now. Even when migrating to eARC, Atmos is still sent by TV streaming apps as DD+ with an Atmos metadata layer, which is not the same as Atmos over TrueHD that you would get from a BR disc, for example. The metadata is much less specific than discreet channels you get in a 7.1.4 mix on a disc. Regardless of how it is set up, most streaming for Atmos is built on DD+.
With eARC, you would be able to pass TrueHD with Atmos from HDMI sources that are directly connected through your TV inputs, like an XBox for example to get 4K/120 low latency gaming response. But streaming apps on TV will still be sending DD+ with Atmos, ARC or eARC. It has more to do with network and streaming service provider bandwidth than with the audio bandwidth of the audio system for why they use DD+ and not TrueHD for streaming.
It is my experience that on most TVs, the Netflix app has a hard time reporting Atmos capability with the XMC-2/RMC-1/L processors when using ARC. This is something that the Netflix app is more particular about in general and something we are looking into with regards to how we report to the TV. But we are able to get Atmos over DD+ from most other apps, like Vudu, Disney+, etc. when using ARC. Netflix seems to be the odd one out in most cases, but this is not as simple as ARC vs eARC. You will still get DD+ with Atmos when streaming from apps on your TV at best with eARC.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 28, 2022 13:59:12 GMT -5
... I still don't really buy that the Apple TV is sending TrueHD with discreet Atmos channel info even though they flag it that way now ... Absolutely, no one is streaming TrueHD, but I don't think this is necessarily an 'Apple' issue, as other vendors display more accurate information from TV (Marrantz / Denon come to mind but others as well). I can't remember what they show instead of TrueHD, possibly LPCM (I'm sure doc1963 knows). In any case I believe the 'TrueHD' we see on our G3P displays when streaming Atmos is how Emotiva (or the code they are using) is interpreting the 'flag'. |
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Post by doc1963 on Jun 28, 2022 16:30:48 GMT -5
... I still don't really buy that the Apple TV is sending TrueHD with discreet Atmos channel info even though they flag it that way now ... Absolutely, no one is streaming TrueHD, but I don't think this is necessarily an 'Apple' issue, as other vendors display more accurate information from TV (Marrantz / Denon come to mind but others as well). I can't remember what they show instead of TrueHD, possibly LPCM (I'm sure doc1963 knows). In any case I believe the 'TrueHD' we see on our G3P displays when streaming Atmos is how Emotiva (or the code they are using) is interpreting the 'flag'. That’s correct… The AppleTV 4K decodes the incoming stream (DD+/Atmos) internally and outputs Dolby MAT (LPCM w/ Atmos metadata). Up until a year or so ago, all Denon/Marantz products reported incoming MAT as “Multi Channel PCM” and “Atmos” as the decoding mode. To avoid confusion (just like we see with our G3P’s), they changed their reporting of MAT to simply show “Atmos” as both the incoming signal as well as the decoding mode. That now makes sense because it’s the only time Dolby MAT is used. If there’s no Atmos metadata, you just get true LPCM. Some time back, I read that both MAT and TrueHD are tied to the same segment of the decoding suite. This might explain why our G3P’s report “TrueHD” when they’re really receiving MAT. I now wish that I would have retained that article. Sometimes bookmarks are your best friend.  |
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Post by autocrat on Jun 28, 2022 17:59:36 GMT -5
I wonder if a setting of 1ms would work? You know, I had that same thought and tried it, and it seemed to mitigate the issue some, but larger values seemed to make more of an improvement in initial testing, so that is what I am suggesting, as it does not seem to affect the actual lipsync regardless. I've previously mentioned my issues: FTA tv where different channels have different formats, either PCM or variations of dolby digital. Pops, clicks, delays, shouting when changing channels or even pausing/resuming. I've played with the lipsync delays and they don't make any difference for me. There's only so many years I'm prepared to endure this; I'll wait for the next firmware release but unless there's a change for the better, I'm done. |
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Post by okjazz on Jun 28, 2022 19:14:22 GMT -5
I cant get HD audio (DTS MA/ DD true HD) from HTPC (RTX3080TI) at 1080p 23p and 24p framerate. All above (25/30/50/60) is ok. At 23/24p only DD and DTS Does anyone have such a problem? Set the audio of the software you are using for playing back your files to "Passthrough". If after, you still have that problem, install the "Dolby Access" and the "DTS Sound Unbound" plugins from the Microsoft Store, then set any one of the two plugins as the default number of playing back channels in Windows sound configuration settings. |
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AntonP
Minor Hero
RMC-1
Posts: 75 
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Post by AntonP on Jun 28, 2022 23:19:54 GMT -5
Set the audio of the software you are using for playing back your files to "Passthrough". If after, you still have that problem, install the "Dolby Access" and the "DTS Sound Unbound" plugins from the Microsoft Store, then set any one of the two plugins as the default number of playing back channels in Windows sound configuration settings. Of course in MPC-HC bitstreaming is turned on. I use this software 10+ years. And Dolby Access is installed too.
The problem manifests itself only in 23/24p modes.
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AntonP
Minor Hero
RMC-1
Posts: 75
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Post by AntonP on Jun 29, 2022 3:07:47 GMT -5
It seems to have solved the problem by connecting the processor to the built-in graphics card instead of nvidia
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Post by trevorlj on Jun 29, 2022 9:34:46 GMT -5
Not coming in this code release, next up on the list, and work is already underway. Especially tricky considering that these are not just new upmixers but should also allow cross-platform use between Dolby and DTS. So Dolby source material needs to be properly decoded by DTS mixers, and vice versa. But that is in the works already and going well from what I know being outside of the engineering room. Boo...keep working it!  |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,234
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Post by KeithL on Jun 29, 2022 9:42:48 GMT -5
Interesting... And, although I haven't seen that particular one before, not at all surprising. There are other things that only work with the built-in graphics chipset. Along with several other requirements, 4k UHD discs, played on a 4k UHD drive internal to a computer, or connected to a computer... Will work with the on-board Intel graphics system (as long as it's recent)... But NOT with almost all other graphics cards (except, as far as I know, with certain very few newer NVidia models)... Due to "HDCP restrictions"... It seems that the drive, the processor chip family, the player software, the monitor, and the graphics card and its drivers, all need to support the HDCP requirement. (And the on-board Intel graphics chipset usually does, but most graphics cards, including most NVidia cards current through last year, do not.) You could try the usual "make sure you have the latest graphics card drivers" and all that... It seems to have solved the problem by connecting the processor to the built-in graphics card instead of nvidia |
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
Posts: 54
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Post by EmoBrent on Jun 29, 2022 9:52:53 GMT -5
Absolutely, no one is streaming TrueHD, but I don't think this is necessarily an 'Apple' issue, as other vendors display more accurate information from TV (Marrantz / Denon come to mind but others as well). I can't remember what they show instead of TrueHD, possibly LPCM (I'm sure doc1963 knows). In any case I believe the 'TrueHD' we see on our G3P displays when streaming Atmos is how Emotiva (or the code they are using) is interpreting the 'flag'. That’s correct… The AppleTV 4K decodes the incoming stream (DD+/Atmos) internally and outputs Dolby MAT (LPCM w/ Atmos metadata). Up until a year or so ago, all Denon/Marantz products reported incoming MAT as “Multi Channel PCM” and “Atmos” as the decoding mode. To avoid confusion (just like we see with our G3P’s), they changed their reporting of MAT to simply show “Atmos” as both the incoming signal as well as the decoding mode. That now makes sense because it’s the only time Dolby MAT is used. If there’s no Atmos metadata, you just get true LPCM. Some time back, I read that both MAT and TrueHD are tied to the same segment of the decoding suite. This might explain why our G3P’s report “TrueHD” when they’re really receiving MAT. I now wish that I would have retained that article. Sometimes bookmarks are your best friend.  Thanks, this is good info and about what I thought. We do flag MAT as TrueHD in other cases I am aware of, so that is likely what is happening here. Will probably change once the revised upmixers are implemented. Non-Atmos is read as PCM by the processors from the ATV and is likely sent as LPCM, so the addition of the Atmos metadata for MAT just has us flag it as TrueHD. |
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
Posts: 54
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Post by EmoBrent on Jun 29, 2022 10:00:58 GMT -5
You know, I had that same thought and tried it, and it seemed to mitigate the issue some, but larger values seemed to make more of an improvement in initial testing, so that is what I am suggesting, as it does not seem to affect the actual lipsync regardless. I've previously mentioned my issues: FTA tv where different channels have different formats, either PCM or variations of dolby digital. Pops, clicks, delays, shouting when changing channels or even pausing/resuming. I've played with the lipsync delays and they don't make any difference for me. There's only so many years I'm prepared to endure this; I'll wait for the next firmware release but unless there's a change for the better, I'm done. On the customer support side, I understand the frustration with this issue. Once the next firmware is released, please let us know if you are still experiencing this issue. I am trying to capture more data about this if it continues to be an issue and may have some additional suggestions or questions for you. customerservice@emotiva.com is best spot to reach us for this once you have a chance to try the firmware. Thanks for your support and patience. |
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Post by amaheshw on Jun 29, 2022 13:31:33 GMT -5
One topic that has not drawn much attention on this thread is whether a fully balanced amp is necessary to realize the benefits of the RMC's balanced circuitry. For clarity, I am referring to a fully differential amplifier balanced in-to-out, like the XPA DR amps, not simply a single-ended amp that happens to have XLRs. My RMC-1L is being delivered tomorrow, and for now, I will be connecting it to my first-gen XPA-5. Will I be losing most of the low noise-floor benefits of the RMC's balanced circuitry by connecting it to my single-ended XPA? Alternatively, if I use a balanced amp for the front 3 channels and single-ended for surrounds and Atmos, how noticeable will the loss be on those channels?
Would appreciate recommendations and experiences from others.
Thanks!
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,234
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Post by KeithL on Jun 29, 2022 14:56:22 GMT -5
The short answer is that the benefits of balanced connections, fully balanced differential amplifiers, and high quality sources like the RMC-1, are actually somewhat different, and are additive. You will NOT lose any of the benefits of the RMC-1 if you use it with an XPA-5 and use balanced connections between them. The ONLY differences will be that the XPA-DR is a tiny bit better sounding, and significantly more powerful, than the XPA-5. (And the main noticeable difference will be the difference in power - if you like to play things loudly. ) A fully balanced fully differential amplifier is not necessarily quieter than one which is not... and, in fact, may or may not be quieter. (And, either way, that difference will only be a few dB either way.) One topic that has not drawn much attention on this thread is whether a fully balanced amp is necessary to realize the benefits of the RMC's balanced circuitry. For clarity, I am referring to a fully differential amplifier balanced in-to-out, like the XPA DR amps, not simply a single-ended amp that happens to have XLRs. My RMC-1L is being delivered tomorrow, and for now, I will be connecting it to my first-gen XPA-5. Will I be losing most of the low noise-floor benefits of the RMC's balanced circuitry by connecting it to my single-ended XPA? Alternatively, if I use a balanced amp for the front 3 channels and single-ended for surrounds and Atmos, how noticeable will the loss be on those channels? Would appreciate recommendations and experiences from others. Thanks! |
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Post by aswiss on Jun 29, 2022 16:14:22 GMT -5
For me, nothing less than the 100 worked out - so I went back to the original setting to have pic and tone sync again. In your case, did the lip sync setting visibly alter the A/V sync when you set it to 100+? As in, the audio and video became out of sync? In my testing, this adjustment has helped with ticks/pops but has not altered the actual A/V sync, even if I set it to the max of 250mSec. If you were getting a visible change in the lip sync when you adjusted, can you let me know the specific make/model of source devices this was with? Just trying to gather as much data as possible as we look into this. Thanks. The only device I have these "glitches" is my Swisscom TV IPTV Box. Swisscom is the largest telecom company - and this is their proprietary Box. Its fully UHD, HDR/DV capable etc. but still on HDMI 2.0b. It runs also apps like, Netflix, YouTube, Plex etc. - but I use my Shield TV Pro for this. So the Swisscom Box is only used for watching TV. First testing was just with raising up to the 100mSec to check if the sometimes ticks/pops still appear - which don't - rock solid this was. turning back to the value I had (around 50ms) made the Pic again lip sync - but the ticks came back.
The I left it on the 100 - restarted both devices and the sync is now a bit better - still a bit off-sync, but I can live with it. this reduced the pops to only appearing once or twice an evening session of 3-4 hrs.
My TV is an LG 77G1 (G17 is the model). CEC disabled everywhere.
For me the lip sync feature was always working. Most of the stuff is synchronized into German - where there's always a bit a problem with this.
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Post by aswiss on Jun 29, 2022 16:24:38 GMT -5
The short answer is that the benefits of balanced connections, fully balanced differential amplifiers, and high quality sources like the RMC-1, are actually somewhat different, and are additive. You will NOT lose any of the benefits of the RMC-1 if you use it with an XPA-5 and use balanced connections between them. The ONLY differences will be that the XPA-DR is a tiny bit better sounding, and significantly more powerful, than the XPA-5. (And the main noticeable difference will be the difference in power - if you like to play things loudly. ) A fully balanced fully differential amplifier is not necessarily quieter than one which is not... and, in fact, may or may not be quieter. (And, either way, that difference will only be a few dB either way.) One topic that has not drawn much attention on this thread is whether a fully balanced amp is necessary to realize the benefits of the RMC's balanced circuitry. For clarity, I am referring to a fully differential amplifier balanced in-to-out, like the XPA DR amps, not simply a single-ended amp that happens to have XLRs. My RMC-1L is being delivered tomorrow, and for now, I will be connecting it to my first-gen XPA-5. Will I be losing most of the low noise-floor benefits of the RMC's balanced circuitry by connecting it to my single-ended XPA? Alternatively, if I use a balanced amp for the front 3 channels and single-ended for surrounds and Atmos, how noticeable will the loss be on those channels? Would appreciate recommendations and experiences from others. Thanks! I started with a XPA-9 Gen3 - then exchanged it to a XPA-7 Gen3 and a XPA DR3 for the FRONT Stage. The main difference for me with the DR3 was the control over the speakers drivers. It simply sounded better for me. All my AMP and also all of my analog gear is connected with XLR. Using Reference Stereo mode, my Phono sounds great, as does the Rose RS150 Streamer.
I'm happy with mine - and if you can afford the money - go for the DR3. Of course its depending the speakers as well.
Mine are currently Revel Performa F-208 and C-208, which will be replaced soon with some Magico.
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EmoBrent
Emo Staff
Processor and Product Support
Posts: 54
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Post by EmoBrent on Jun 30, 2022 9:45:42 GMT -5
In your case, did the lip sync setting visibly alter the A/V sync when you set it to 100+? As in, the audio and video became out of sync? In my testing, this adjustment has helped with ticks/pops but has not altered the actual A/V sync, even if I set it to the max of 250mSec. If you were getting a visible change in the lip sync when you adjusted, can you let me know the specific make/model of source devices this was with? Just trying to gather as much data as possible as we look into this. Thanks. The only device I have these "glitches" is my Swisscom TV IPTV Box. Swisscom is the largest telecom company - and this is their proprietary Box. Its fully UHD, HDR/DV capable etc. but still on HDMI 2.0b. It runs also apps like, Netflix, YouTube, Plex etc. - but I use my Shield TV Pro for this. So the Swisscom Box is only used for watching TV. First testing was just with raising up to the 100mSec to check if the sometimes ticks/pops still appear - which don't - rock solid this was. turning back to the value I had (around 50ms) made the Pic again lip sync - but the ticks came back.
The I left it on the 100 - restarted both devices and the sync is now a bit better - still a bit off-sync, but I can live with it. this reduced the pops to only appearing once or twice an evening session of 3-4 hrs.
My TV is an LG 77G1 (G17 is the model). CEC disabled everywhere.
For me the lip sync feature was always working. Most of the stuff is synchronized into German - where there's always a bit a problem with this.
Thanks for this feedback. Once the new code is released, I will be curious to see if the lip sync adjustment has a different effect, as this was found when running beta code. Seemed to behave the same on 2.5 with the Shield at least. It seems to help the most consistently with Nvidia Shields, which I also use the most at home. May have to do with how the Shield, processor, and display work together to report their audio sync delays. Regardless, helpful to test this out in various systems with different sources. Appreciate this info. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 30, 2022 13:21:43 GMT -5
Possibly I misread KeithL 's post, but it's titled "[- CURRENT VERSION -]: RMC-1, RMC-1L, XMC-2 Firmware - v3.0", yet the post discusses FW2.5 and links to 2.5. Did I miss something or should this all say 3.0? |
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