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Post by 5channels on Aug 30, 2022 9:34:26 GMT -5
That is a amazing itinerary Mark and a very unique looking vessel, I hope you have a great trip
Cheers
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Post by sebna on Aug 30, 2022 10:00:22 GMT -5
Another general setup question: 1. If I would use MiniDSP to manage my two subs to which Sub output should I connect MiniDSP on XMC-2 (does it matter)? 2. If I would decided not to use MiniDSP and use PEQ in XMC to manage my 2 subs to which outputs on XMC-2 should I connect them (if it matters)? 3. Which of the above would yield me better results (better LFE and BM SQ)? And finally can I import filters to XMC PEQ or do I have to enter them manually (and if so is there any tool I could use to know what to input to achieve what I want)? Many thanks my friends  #1 - You would connect to either Center or Left. So Center makes the most sense. Then you have a choice: if you want LFE + BM to go to the subs, set Center Sub=Mono; If you want only LFE to subs and BM to large fronts, set Center Sub=LFE (you will have +3db BM boost in the fronts) #2 - If you don't use miniDSP, then use Left and Right Sub outputs set to Dual Mono. You will have +3db boost in BM. #3 + last question - The best answer is to use Dirac in either case. Dirac will give you better results than PEQ because the filters are more sophisticated and you get phase and impulse response correction. When you use Dirac, the best results will be with miniDSP because you will use it to time-align the two subs so Dirac sees them as one sub and aligns them to the rest of the speakers. No need to do any PEQ in the miniDSP. If for some reason you don't want to use Dirac, then you should use Room EQ Wizard to measure the response of each speaker. REW can output a file that you can import into miniDSP or XMC. There is a procedure to export the specific file for each device. Marc, thank you one more time. Please correct me if I am wrong. So if I would decide to use DIRAC your recommendation is to only time align subs to each other not even to mains? Also not to apply filters at all in MiniDSP (using REW to produce them)? So to provide combine raw sub output to DIRAC (other than time aligning them)? Would not applying filters in MiniDSP not limit Dirac effectiveness as in MiniDSP I apply two filters, one for each sub for better granularity and control over final outcome and I would imagine DIRAC would apply only one filter as it would think there is only 1 sub? Am I right that DIRAC live without DLBC has same capabilities of filter creation and manipulation as DLBC module but with limitation of dealing with one sub only? Or is there more limitations for example how low will DIRAC live correct to in compare to DLBC? Lots of questions but worth asking as there is wealth of knowledgeable users here Cheers |
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Post by marcl on Aug 30, 2022 10:17:55 GMT -5
#1 - You would connect to either Center or Left. So Center makes the most sense. Then you have a choice: if you want LFE + BM to go to the subs, set Center Sub=Mono; If you want only LFE to subs and BM to large fronts, set Center Sub=LFE (you will have +3db BM boost in the fronts) #2 - If you don't use miniDSP, then use Left and Right Sub outputs set to Dual Mono. You will have +3db boost in BM. #3 + last question - The best answer is to use Dirac in either case. Dirac will give you better results than PEQ because the filters are more sophisticated and you get phase and impulse response correction. When you use Dirac, the best results will be with miniDSP because you will use it to time-align the two subs so Dirac sees them as one sub and aligns them to the rest of the speakers. No need to do any PEQ in the miniDSP. If for some reason you don't want to use Dirac, then you should use Room EQ Wizard to measure the response of each speaker. REW can output a file that you can import into miniDSP or XMC. There is a procedure to export the specific file for each device. Marc, thank you one more time. Please correct me if I am wrong. So if I would decide to use DIRAC your recommendation is to only time align subs to each other not even to mains? Also not to apply filters at all in MiniDSP (using REW to produce them)? So to provide combine raw sub output to DIRAC (other than time aligning them)? Would not applying filters in MiniDSP not limit Dirac effectiveness as in MiniDSP I apply two filters, one for each sub for better granularity and control over final outcome and I would imagine DIRAC would apply only one filter as it would think there is only 1 sub? Am I right that DIRAC live without DLBC has same capabilities of filter creation and manipulation as DLBC module but with limitation of dealing with one sub only? Or is there more limitations for example how low will DIRAC live correct to in compare to DLBC? Lots of questions but worth asking as there is wealth of knowledgeable users here Cheers Good questions! Yes, in miniDSP just time-align the subs to each other, and match their levels. You can use REW to help do this for the best uniform output of the combined two subs. REW has a great Alignment Tool to get the delays right, and you can adjust the levels of the subs on the subs themselves or in miniDSP. You will also be able to experiment with reversing polarity of one sub, which is sometimes required. Once you have the two subs optimized best you can in miniDSP, then Dirac will align the combined output with the other speakers. You may experiment with crossovers in the miniDSP to see if there is any benefit, in particular a high pass to prevent any subsonics from getting to the subs. I have tried all combinations of using filters in the miniDSP individually, combined, with Dirac ... I found it best not to do any filters in the miniDSP because those filters add phase shift and it ends up more complicated than it needs to be. Dirac does a better job of using the multiple measurements and its mixed filters. Dirac Live without DLBC just treats each speaker the same, measuring it full range and allowing you to set the curtains to define the range of correction (it does nothing left or right of the curtains), and to define the target curve for the response of that speaker. Dirac time-aligns all the outputs to each other as well as sets the levels. DLBC manages multiple subs and also allows you to optimize crossovers for your small speakers. But as far as the frequency and impulse response correction for each speaker, it does the same as basic Dirac Live. There may be some additional interactions that I'm not aware of specifically, but it's a moot point because we won't have DLBC for a long while yet. |
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Post by webmst007 on Aug 30, 2022 15:06:05 GMT -5
I get around 3-5db boost after Dirac into the sub channel.
Like Marc I removed all additional filters from downstream gear (like a minidsp - I'm using a venu360 pulled from PA duty instead of a minidsp to manage 4 subs) and just EQ using Dirac.
So set all channel levels to "0" first; then run Dirac; measure and adjust levels in RMC1; measure eq in REW ; adjust Dirac filters as required; re-export adjusted filters; retest EQ in REW; adjust again or leave as finals.
Decide to change room or move things around. Start all over again.....🤪🤪👍🤣
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 30, 2022 15:31:35 GMT -5
This is not the Dirac thread, so I don't want to get too much into Dirac stuff here, but here's the bottom line. You can set one channel to +12dB, and another channel to -12dB in Levels, and Dirac will totally ignore both those settings. I've verified this. It will operate the only way it ever does and ignore any Levels setting. Levels is AFTER the Dirac filter and is disabled during running Dirac. Dirac will adjust the level of all channels to its liking and will try to make them all equal and - these days - does a pretty good job and all the speaker channels are really close to or exactly at zero when I check after running Dirac. Most of my channels remain at zero for a Dirac filter, a few are up to 1.5dB different or less, and the sub channels are what need the most adjustment. The point here is to check Levels after running Dirac. But if you don't want to check, just set them all to zero. If it sounds too boomy, just turn down the subs a bit. I am in the camp with those who would love to have every Slot to have its own set of Levels. So that would be 6 sets of Levels, one per Slot. Like marcl said, if one Dirac filter is slightly different from another, there is no way to have both work properly in the same Preset because they each need their own set of Levels. So this makes it ridiculous to even have 2 Dirac Slots and a User Slot in one Preset and expect it all to work with one set of Levels. The Levels section of the Saved Settings code doesn't take up very much room, and all it is, is just a final volume control after everything else, so what's the big deal to make each Slot have its own set of Levels? Just eliminate Presets and just have 6 Slots, or, 6 Presets and no Slots, same difference. Right now we just have 2 sets of Levels, so any extra slots are meaningless. |
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Post by webmst007 on Aug 30, 2022 15:43:18 GMT -5
Ttocs
What he said +1
👍💯⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 6 setups.
For me the HDMI switching stuff is not that much of an issue but the lack of proper sub management means I will probably return the venu360 to PA work ( it's not really a hifi bit of kit) and get a minidsp ddrc88a so I can cross the mains and align the 4 subs properly. Then experiment running Dirac in that rig. Sounds like sub alignment is still a fair way off.
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Post by msimanyi on Aug 30, 2022 16:16:20 GMT -5
Enjoy your cruise!
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 30, 2022 16:24:03 GMT -5
Prediction: Based on past experience the most reliable indicator of firmware/software releases from Emotiva and Dirac is that I am traveling for 2-3 weeks. Happens every time! Drops while I'm away and I miss all the excitement!  So friends, you are in luck because I will be gone 20 days ... and even better, I will be off the grid for 14 of them! So I look forward to lively chatter on the thread when I return from the Great White North View AttachmentView AttachmentWhy didn't you make a moving graphic with the boat like Clark Griswold did with the Family Truckster? And that was with 8bit graphics! Enjoy your trip and FW4.0 will be here when you get back! OOPS, I thought you wrote 200 days, so just FW3.0. |
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Post by cwmcobra on Aug 30, 2022 18:05:35 GMT -5
Enjoy Marc! It's a fabulous part of the world!!
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Post by sandbagger on Aug 30, 2022 20:06:32 GMT -5
Prediction: Based on past experience the most reliable indicator of firmware/software releases from Emotiva and Dirac is that I am traveling for 2-3 weeks. Happens every time! Drops while I'm away and I miss all the excitement! So friends, you are in luck because I will be gone 20 days ... and even better, I will be off the grid for 14 of them! So I look forward to lively chatter on the thread when I return from the Great White North View AttachmentView AttachmentProbably more likely while I am in Egypt later this year for 3 weeks actually(thanksgiving time) |
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Post by sebna on Aug 31, 2022 2:28:39 GMT -5
Marc, thank you one more time. Please correct me if I am wrong. So if I would decide to use DIRAC your recommendation is to only time align subs to each other not even to mains? Also not to apply filters at all in MiniDSP (using REW to produce them)? So to provide combine raw sub output to DIRAC (other than time aligning them)? Would not applying filters in MiniDSP not limit Dirac effectiveness as in MiniDSP I apply two filters, one for each sub for better granularity and control over final outcome and I would imagine DIRAC would apply only one filter as it would think there is only 1 sub? Am I right that DIRAC live without DLBC has same capabilities of filter creation and manipulation as DLBC module but with limitation of dealing with one sub only? Or is there more limitations for example how low will DIRAC live correct to in compare to DLBC? Lots of questions but worth asking as there is wealth of knowledgeable users here Cheers Good questions! Yes, in miniDSP just time-align the subs to each other, and match their levels. You can use REW to help do this for the best uniform output of the combined two subs. REW has a great Alignment Tool to get the delays right, and you can adjust the levels of the subs on the subs themselves or in miniDSP. You will also be able to experiment with reversing polarity of one sub, which is sometimes required. Once you have the two subs optimized best you can in miniDSP, then Dirac will align the combined output with the other speakers. You may experiment with crossovers in the miniDSP to see if there is any benefit, in particular a high pass to prevent any subsonics from getting to the subs. I have tried all combinations of using filters in the miniDSP individually, combined, with Dirac ... I found it best not to do any filters in the miniDSP because those filters add phase shift and it ends up more complicated than it needs to be. Dirac does a better job of using the multiple measurements and its mixed filters. Dirac Live without DLBC just treats each speaker the same, measuring it full range and allowing you to set the curtains to define the range of correction (it does nothing left or right of the curtains), and to define the target curve for the response of that speaker. Dirac time-aligns all the outputs to each other as well as sets the levels. DLBC manages multiple subs and also allows you to optimize crossovers for your small speakers. But as far as the frequency and impulse response correction for each speaker, it does the same as basic Dirac Live. There may be some additional interactions that I'm not aware of specifically, but it's a moot point because we won't have DLBC for a long while yet. Thank you Marc.
Am I right to assume that if DIRAC is not working (internally) with crossovers that I can still set those in XMC-2 and that those will be enforced no matter with or without DIRAC filters?
Hope you will have great trip. When are you leaving exactly (I am asking to know how much time I have left, if I would come up with any more questions  )
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Post by sebna on Aug 31, 2022 2:31:01 GMT -5
I was speaking with Emo support team, with Grant and indirectly with Brent over the phone yesterday about my order and I asked about FW 3.0
I was told it is weeks away. That it is almost ready. That they thought they had it ready for release few weeks back but decided to refine it a bit better and now it is very close to being ready.
Also, what we have already knew but also confirmed over the phone yesterday, that the DLBC is not going to be part of 3.0.
Cheers
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Post by webmst007 on Aug 31, 2022 3:54:57 GMT -5
So based on that info - which sounds about right I'm considering:
live with bass/sub integration as is using a Venu360 ( or other PA DSP I have already ) for sub only integration.
Get a basic minidsp and use either REW or REW+ MSO. Ignore main to sub bass integration and just run subs as a single into Dirac.
Get a minidsp flex and still run subs seperated from the other speakers but add a seperate Dirac calibration to the subs in the Flex. Then let the RMC1 "see" those as 1 sub and run Dirac in the RMC1 as usual.
Get a minidsp ddrc88A and run mains (large) plus bass + LFE into that.
So include sub cross over to the mains for low information from the "Large" setting, sub DLBC.
Run Dirac on that lot in the ddrc88a.
Then let RMC1 run Dirac on the finalised large mains plus a single sub.
What would be interesting is seeing how the phase relationships were handled by Dirac and the before and after REW results in that setup.
I'm assuming 3 will pretty much fix the HDMI switching issues as much as is possible.
My solution for that was going to be a HDfury VVRoom 8k and switch through that to projector and TV whilst sending audio only to the RMC1. Not that my Epson projector takes 8k but it would allow me to try the LLdv HDR hack that's being played with currently for non-Dolby Vision projectors.
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Post by marcl on Aug 31, 2022 5:28:28 GMT -5
Good questions! Yes, in miniDSP just time-align the subs to each other, and match their levels. You can use REW to help do this for the best uniform output of the combined two subs. REW has a great Alignment Tool to get the delays right, and you can adjust the levels of the subs on the subs themselves or in miniDSP. You will also be able to experiment with reversing polarity of one sub, which is sometimes required. Once you have the two subs optimized best you can in miniDSP, then Dirac will align the combined output with the other speakers. You may experiment with crossovers in the miniDSP to see if there is any benefit, in particular a high pass to prevent any subsonics from getting to the subs. I have tried all combinations of using filters in the miniDSP individually, combined, with Dirac ... I found it best not to do any filters in the miniDSP because those filters add phase shift and it ends up more complicated than it needs to be. Dirac does a better job of using the multiple measurements and its mixed filters. Dirac Live without DLBC just treats each speaker the same, measuring it full range and allowing you to set the curtains to define the range of correction (it does nothing left or right of the curtains), and to define the target curve for the response of that speaker. Dirac time-aligns all the outputs to each other as well as sets the levels. DLBC manages multiple subs and also allows you to optimize crossovers for your small speakers. But as far as the frequency and impulse response correction for each speaker, it does the same as basic Dirac Live. There may be some additional interactions that I'm not aware of specifically, but it's a moot point because we won't have DLBC for a long while yet. Thank you Marc.
Am I right to assume that if DIRAC is not working (internally) with crossovers that I can still set those in XMC-2 and that those will be enforced no matter with or without DIRAC filters?
Hope you will have great trip. When are you leaving exactly (I am asking to know how much time I have left, if I would come up with any more questions )
You always will set crossovers on the XMC-2. I believe even if we HAD DLBC, the crossovers would physically be set in the XMC-2. In any case, Dirac correction filters are independent of the crossovers. So your best approach is to use a miniDSP to align the subs and then run Dirac. Use the Dirac measurements to get an idea where your Small speakers roll off, and set their crossovers accordingly. If you can measure with REW afterward, with Dirac correction running, you may tweak the crossovers up or down to make the smoothest transition. Traveling in the time of Pandemia and airline chaos is way too stressful, but we're going to make the best of it ... leaving early Saturday. |
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Post by marcl on Aug 31, 2022 5:32:46 GMT -5
So based on that info - which sounds about right I'm considering: live with bass/sub integration as is using a Venu360 ( or other PA DSP I have already ) for sub only integration. Get a basic minidsp and use either REW or REW+ MSO. Ignore main to sub bass integration and just run subs as a single into Dirac. Get a minidsp flex and still run subs seperated from the other speakers but add a seperate Dirac calibration to the subs in the Flex. Then let the RMC1 "see" those as 1 sub and run Dirac in the RMC1 as usual. Get a minidsp ddrc88A and run mains (large) plus bass + LFE into that. So include sub cross over to the mains for low information from the "Large" setting, sub DLBC. Run Dirac on that lot in the ddrc88a. Then let RMC1 run Dirac on the finalised large mains plus a single sub. What would be interesting is seeing how the phase relationships were handled by Dirac and the before and after REW results in that setup. I'm assuming 3 will pretty much fix the HDMI switching issues as much as is possible. My solution for that was going to be a HDfury VVRoom 8k and switch through that to projector and TV whilst sending audio only to the RMC1. Not that my Epson projector takes 8k but it would allow me to try the LLdv HDR hack that's being played with currently for non-Dolby Vision projectors. Simplest approach will work .... a miniDSP 2x4 HD connected to Center Sub output configured Mono. Use the REW Alignment Tool to align the subs. No PEQ in the miniDSP. Run Dirac from the RMC-1 on the whole enchilada! |
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Post by webmst007 on Aug 31, 2022 5:45:13 GMT -5
Ah yes Marc that's my first version choice at this stage.
And the flex measures very well according to ASR.
But that doesn't mesh the mains to the 2 front subs for stereo only.
The other option I'm juggling is to add a second seperate preamp to feed the mains and front subs through switching and set that up just for stereo only. The VVRoom might play a part in that.
But the RMC1 is pretty good as pre's measure so that could work but I'll need the extra DSP unit channels if I want to cross over to subs.So a flex is not enough at only 2 input channels and I'll need at least 3 in - which takes me back to the 88A.
Just finished another Dirac today - I'll post stuff tomorrow 🥳🥳
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Post by marcl on Aug 31, 2022 6:35:42 GMT -5
Ah yes Marc that's my first version choice at this stage. And the flex measures very well according to ASR. But that doesn't mesh the mains to the 2 front subs for stereo only. The other option I'm juggling is to add a second seperate preamp to feed the mains and front subs through switching and set that up just for stereo only. The VVRoom might play a part in that. But the RMC1 is pretty good as pre's measure so that could work but I'll need the extra DSP unit channels if I want to cross over to subs.So a flex is not enough at only 2 input channels and I'll need at least 3 in - which takes me back to the 88A. Just finished another Dirac today - I'll post stuff tomorrow 🥳🥳 That does add a twist  You may know that I have a pretty unconventional setup using the two miniDSP's, but for a different reason. I still use both subs integrated in one miniDSP for all listening. But I split my L/R fronts to feed a sum of the L/R to the subs separate from bass management. Then I set the Center Sub output to LFE so it contains ONLY LFE. And so bass management goes to my Large fronts which play full range including the subs from that separate feed. The Small speakers get "Maggie bass" down to 40Hz. For stereo listening the L/R fronts play down to their limit ~40Hz while the subs overlap from 50Hz down to 16Hz. I end up with the subs very well integrated with the fronts with Dirac, and the benefits of multi-sub alignment for all listening. |
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Post by jjkessler on Aug 31, 2022 7:39:11 GMT -5
For integrating two subs into my RMC-1L along with Dirac. Is the MiniDSP 2x4 good enough or is there any advantage to going with the MiniDSP 2x4HD version?
My two subs are coming off the left sub channel using the Emotiva wireless virtual copper to connect both subs as one. As I understand the best approach is the get the subs tine aligned and set levels VIA REW then run Dirac as in my configuration, the subs will be seen as a single speaker and integrated with my other speakers.
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Post by marcl on Aug 31, 2022 8:13:32 GMT -5
For integrating two subs into my RMC-1L along with Dirac. Is the MiniDSP 2x4 good enough or is there any advantage to going with the MiniDSP 2x4HD version? My two subs are coming off the left sub channel using the Emotiva wireless virtual copper to connect both subs as one. As I understand the best approach is the get the subs tine aligned and set levels VIA REW then run Dirac as in my configuration, the subs will be seen as a single speaker and integrated with my other speakers. To your second point ... yes! As for 2x4 vs 2x4HD, the HD has more range of time delay available if you need it. HD can do 80ms while 2x4 can only do 7.2ms. May not be an issue. HD has other features like FIR and All Pass filters but you probably don't need them since you're using Dirac. |
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Post by webmst007 on Aug 31, 2022 8:24:40 GMT -5
ASR recent review of the flex was very good so that is an option plus there's a balanced version. Hey Marc - would love to spend a day or 2 in your system with a selection of gear and measure it all. Pity you're only 14,000 odd miles away or something like that 🤣🤣🤓👌
Definitely would like to hear a 4 in 8 out unit swapped for those minidsp's and compare the REW results.
Plus I'd love to compare those Maggie's of yours with the stats I build.
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