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Post by pbiancardi on Sept 9, 2022 13:17:06 GMT -5
Is there at least some sort of estimate of when firmware might come out? Can they at least target a month or are we seriously not even sure it will be this year?
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Lsc
Emo VIPs 
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Post by Lsc on Sept 9, 2022 13:23:07 GMT -5
I appreciate your perspective on this. It's not necessarily that I disagree with what you are saying, just trying to provide the other point of view. I think a well designed GUI allows for complex operations that are not possible or are clunky on a text based interface for the average user. I also think a responsive, well designed GUI would be easier for me personally (and maybe others) than the current OSD. There are still thinks that the OSD might be quicker to do than on a web based GUI, but for me I always have a my smart phone next to me and I have a server rack with a monitor right next to my setup so I can always step right over and pull up the web in seconds. I often find that unless I do a reboot of my processor before using the OSD, it gets laggy and then when I click to go up or down I'll end up accidentally going to far or opening the wrong submenu, backing out maybe getting it right the next time. Then sometimes when I get to the end of the submenu, I realize I'm not where I thought I was going to be, then I have to go back out and start searching through all of them until I find what I am looking for. A nice, logical GUI allows for much quicker access to menus and features at a glance and can easily and quickly be changed. The key would be the design. It needs to be intuitive and responsive and well laid out using some sort of modern framework that is cross compatible with all devices/browsers. I'm not a javascript programmer but I think something like the React JS framework would be a logical choice, or at least a good candidate. Anyways, that's all I'll say on this subject for now. I would much rather see development resources go to other things before a web UI, such as my personal #1 which is DLBC...I'll leave it at that! The reason why Emotiva doesn’t have a nice GUI is most likely due to members on this forum. It’s no wonder they stopped asking this forum for their feedback. Lonnie specifically asked a few years ago when they were developing the RMC1 about a web interface and if it was ok not having an on screen display. The consensus was (me included) that having an on screen display was a must. I still like the OSD and don’t really care about a web interface but everyone is different. |
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 889
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Post by richb on Sept 9, 2022 13:28:05 GMT -5
I appreciate your perspective on this. It's not necessarily that I disagree with what you are saying, just trying to provide the other point of view. I think a well designed GUI allows for complex operations that are not possible or are clunky on a text based interface for the average user. I also think a responsive, well designed GUI would be easier for me personally (and maybe others) than the current OSD. There are still thinks that the OSD might be quicker to do than on a web based GUI, but for me I always have a my smart phone next to me and I have a server rack with a monitor right next to my setup so I can always step right over and pull up the web in seconds. I often find that unless I do a reboot of my processor before using the OSD, it gets laggy and then when I click to go up or down I'll end up accidentally going to far or opening the wrong submenu, backing out maybe getting it right the next time. Then sometimes when I get to the end of the submenu, I realize I'm not where I thought I was going to be, then I have to go back out and start searching through all of them until I find what I am looking for. A nice, logical GUI allows for much quicker access to menus and features at a glance and can easily and quickly be changed. The key would be the design. It needs to be intuitive and responsive and well laid out using some sort of modern framework that is cross compatible with all devices/browsers. I'm not a javascript programmer but I think something like the React JS framework would be a logical choice, or at least a good candidate. Anyways, that's all I'll say on this subject for now. I would much rather see development resources go to other things before a web UI, such as my personal #1 which is DLBC...I'll leave it at that! The reason why Emotiva doesn’t have a nice GUI is most likely due to members on this forum. It’s no wonder they stopped asking this forum for their feedback. Lonnie specifically asked a few years ago when they were developing the RMC1 about a web interface and if it was ok not having an on screen display. The consensus was (me included) that having an on screen display was a must. I still like the OSD and don’t really care about a web interface but everyone is different. I want and On Screen Display and web UI for configuration. - Rich |
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Post by 5channels on Sept 9, 2022 13:53:16 GMT -5
Integration is the key word, I want to control is all from one device, my iPad, or a laptop. Setup, management, playback and adjust on the fly...oh, and Roon. We have the technology.
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Post by ElectricKoolAid on Sept 9, 2022 14:08:07 GMT -5
I appreciate your perspective on this. It's not necessarily that I disagree with what you are saying, just trying to provide the other point of view. I think a well designed GUI allows for complex operations that are not possible or are clunky on a text based interface for the average user. I also think a responsive, well designed GUI would be easier for me personally (and maybe others) than the current OSD. There are still thinks that the OSD might be quicker to do than on a web based GUI, but for me I always have a my smart phone next to me and I have a server rack with a monitor right next to my setup so I can always step right over and pull up the web in seconds. I often find that unless I do a reboot of my processor before using the OSD, it gets laggy and then when I click to go up or down I'll end up accidentally going to far or opening the wrong submenu, backing out maybe getting it right the next time. Then sometimes when I get to the end of the submenu, I realize I'm not where I thought I was going to be, then I have to go back out and start searching through all of them until I find what I am looking for. A nice, logical GUI allows for much quicker access to menus and features at a glance and can easily and quickly be changed. The key would be the design. It needs to be intuitive and responsive and well laid out using some sort of modern framework that is cross compatible with all devices/browsers. I'm not a javascript programmer but I think something like the React JS framework would be a logical choice, or at least a good candidate. Anyways, that's all I'll say on this subject for now. I would much rather see development resources go to other things before a web UI, such as my personal #1 which is DLBC...I'll leave it at that! The reason why Emotiva doesn’t have a nice GUI is most likely due to members on this forum. It’s no wonder they stopped asking this forum for their feedback. Lonnie specifically asked a few years ago when they were developing the RMC1 about a web interface and if it was ok not having an on screen display. The consensus was (me included) that having an on screen display was a must. I still like the OSD and don’t really care about a web interface but everyone is different. That's unfortunate. Like others have said though it would be a huge benefit to have both, I don't see any reason why you couldn't but maybe I'm wrong. Like you said, everyone is different. I really do like this processor and want it to be the best it can be, so just throwing out some ideas that would really add value IMO but wasn't aware of the history when it was being developed, that is interesting. |
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
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Post by Lsc on Sept 9, 2022 14:17:30 GMT -5
The reason why Emotiva doesn’t have a nice GUI is most likely due to members on this forum. It’s no wonder they stopped asking this forum for their feedback. Lonnie specifically asked a few years ago when they were developing the RMC1 about a web interface and if it was ok not having an on screen display. The consensus was (me included) that having an on screen display was a must. I still like the OSD and don’t really care about a web interface but everyone is different. I want and On Screen Display and web UI for configuration. - Rich That would be ideal Rich but that means you have to buy something else that gives you that flexibility. Expecting Emotiva to enhance these units has similar odds of winning mega millions or powerball. 😬 |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Sept 9, 2022 14:19:10 GMT -5
I don't specifically disagree with you either. However I would also make a distinction between a pretty GUI ( GRAPHICAL user interface) and just a browser-based interface. For example, if I was configuring a whole bunch of inputs, with a name and options for each, I would much rather enter all the necessary information into something that looked like a spreadsheet. (Which is what the very-pre-beta Windows configuration app looks like.) But, in that case, a plain old text-based spreadsheet would serve me just fine, and I don't care much about pretty pictures and 3D buttons. (And a poorly designed GUI can be more confusing and complicated than informative.) Something like: Input Audio Video Name ModeHDMI1 HDMI1 HDMI1 AppleTV Surround
HDMI2 Analog HDMI2 BlueBox Stereo
Now, if you're talking about actually working with a parametric EQ (and not just entering numbers you already have), then I really prefer something like this...  (That's the PEQ screen for Izotope Ozone Elements 9 - which is a really nice full-on mastering and editing program.) But that's a really complicated piece of software - which I'm sure took several programmers a long time to write. There are also inevitable tradeoffs... For example, that GUI is really nice for moving sliders, and seeing what happens on the graph... But, if you already have the numbers you want to use, it's easier to just punch in, for example, 220 Hz, Q=2, Vol=+3 dB ... And, if you're making your entries on a separate device... - either it updates right away... in which case the response gets very slow - or it updates when you're done... so you don't get to hear what your changes sound like - or it updates when you tell it to explicitly... in which case you have to keep hitting "update" - and you have to make sure all of your changes really get entered and don't get lost - and, of course, you need to HAVE that separate device (do you want Android, or IOS, or Windows... and will they all look and work the same?) Your final line says it all really... It's a big, complicated, and expensive project to design a good GUI... and we have higher priorities... However, as I've said, we are working on a Web-based interface... so it is coming... Actually, no, I have a phone that clips on my belt. (Although it does have an awful lot of features that I never use and would gladly have done without.) And I do sometimes miss the days when there was usually a human being on the other end of the line. And, while a cell phone is far more convenient, they aren't nearly as reliable as an old wired phone. And, incidentally, Green Acres is still in reruns... So, apparently, some classic things really do last forever... To be quite concise I too sometimes use the GUI when I'm setting things up. A GUI can be quite handy when you want to see a whole lot of information on a single screen... Which can be very handy when setting things up and fine tuning them... But, beyond that, I wouldn't like to think that I spent a lot of money on a pretty GUI that could have been better spent on something more useful. (And I'll bet you cannot name me a single GUI that you haven't found annoying and confusing at some point.) When I'm picking out an album to listen to, I would much rather pick the name off a text list than look at pictures of album covers. For example, when I want to play Dark Side of the Moon, I click on Lossless Albums, then Pink Floyd, then Dark Side of the Moon (EMI 2003). I find that far more intuitive looking at row after row of little pictures - trying to remember which one goes with the version of the album I want to listen to today. And, of course, it matches the directory structure on my server exactly... So I never have to figure out where the files that go with that album "really" are... But, yes, I do agree that a nice GUI is handy for setting up a complex piece of gear... I appreciate your perspective on this. It's not necessarily that I disagree with what you are saying, just trying to provide the other point of view. I think a well designed GUI allows for complex operations that are not possible or are clunky on a text based interface for the average user. I also think a responsive, well designed GUI would be easier for me personally (and maybe others) than the current OSD. There are still thinks that the OSD might be quicker to do than on a web based GUI, but for me I always have a my smart phone next to me and I have a server rack with a monitor right next to my setup so I can always step right over and pull up the web in seconds. I often find that unless I do a reboot of my processor before using the OSD, it gets laggy and then when I click to go up or down I'll end up accidentally going to far or opening the wrong submenu, backing out maybe getting it right the next time. Then sometimes when I get to the end of the submenu, I realize I'm not where I thought I was going to be, then I have to go back out and start searching through all of them until I find what I am looking for. A nice, logical GUI allows for much quicker access to menus and features at a glance and can easily and quickly be changed. The key would be the design. It needs to be intuitive and responsive and well laid out using some sort of modern framework that is cross compatible with all devices/browsers. I'm not a javascript programmer but I think something like the React JS framework would be a logical choice, or at least a good candidate. Anyways, that's all I'll say on this subject for now. I would much rather see development resources go to other things before a web UI, such as my personal #1 which is DLBC...I'll leave it at that! |
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
Posts: 3,424
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Post by Lsc on Sept 9, 2022 14:19:57 GMT -5
Integration is the key word, I want to control is all from one device, my iPad, or a laptop. Setup, management, playback and adjust on the fly...oh, and Roon. We have the technology. I doubt the architecture of Emotiva’s processor gives way to this level of integration. |
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Post by fbczar on Sept 9, 2022 14:22:15 GMT -5
I’d be pretty surprised if these processors will be replaced with something new at this price point. Only because I don’t see many people buying them with how things have gone and Emotiva may be focused on lower priced products again. I have said for a while that if DLBC isn’t coming to my XMC2, I doubt I’ll ever buy another Emotiva processor. Still, my XMC2 is doing fine in my system and I’d have to spend a lot more money for perhaps little to no improvements in sound quality. Hence, the inner conflict. I think sound quality is too subjective to really matter (IMO). I highly doubt there's been a scientific blind shootout between high end processors, my opinion is that at this price point they all probably sound the same if they are well engineered. Unfortunately the BM bug is an example of something that would effect sound quality, for better or worse. There's actually a review on YouTube and the reviewer had no idea about the bug and said the only difference here could hear between the Emo and another high end processor was that he felt the Emo had more bass, how crazy is that. Anyways, I guess the point I'm getting at is that at this price point I look more at the features and software than the sound quality since they should all be the same minus Room Correction software (another big selling point). DLBC was high on my list of items that I bought the XMC-2, so the fact it hasn't made it here yet is a big disappointment for me personally. I think a review of the parts used in the various available processors would be instructive relative to sound quality. A few years back Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity did a series on the Parts that matter and focused on the XMC-1 which is still valid today. The XMC-1 was clearly superior to Denon, and Marantz processors in parts quality . Only very high end Anthem processors were in the same ball park. Having owned both the XMC-1 and XMC-2 there is no doubt the XMC-2 sounds better. While the likely difference between the XMC-1 and XMC-2 is DAC implementation Emotiva processors have outstanding volume controls, power supplies, etc. vs the less expensive parts used by Marantz and Denon. And of course there is the Dirac vs Audyssey issue. Anyway, check out the Secrets article by Dr. Rich. It is a great read. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2022 14:26:07 GMT -5
It should be painfully obvious to all who are waiting for the next firmware - Emo has not hired the right person to do their coding. If they were genuinely able to do effective recursive/iterative coding/testing/release we would see more frequent firmware releases addressing a single "major" issue with some minor house cleaning. When will we see the next firmware? It doesn't matter. By now each of us has had to figure out which workaround or headache works most of the time.
I waited up till midnight the day these units first went on sale to get mine. The first firmware was "not ready for prime-time". I've suffered through having to daily power cycle. Cringe at random crazy loud static. Loss of audio. And volume weirdness (+/- 10dB) after previous firmware updates. Thankfully, most but not all of the WTF problems have been sorted. When it works it is really really good.
I just hope that if/when an HDMI 2.1 board comes along that we don't start the @#$% show all over again.
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Post by 5channels on Sept 9, 2022 14:32:19 GMT -5
Integration is the key word, I want to control is all from one device, my iPad, or a laptop. Setup, management, playback and adjust on the fly...oh, and Roon. We have the technology. I doubt the architecture of Emotiva’s processor gives way to this level of integration. Yeah, that is not what I mean by integration...think Logitech type integration |
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Post by 5channels on Sept 9, 2022 14:37:58 GMT -5
"pretty" GUI can be functional..."plain old" text, well who wants to navigate a soulless spreadsheet. It can be done, it has been done and it should be done by Emotiva. Crank handles are for yesteryear. ....now, don't get me started on that repurposed International Harvester come remote control  |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,230
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Post by KeithL on Sept 9, 2022 15:12:10 GMT -5
That's not true. All that is required in order for the processor to support this sort of integration is that it can accept commands from other devices. Here's a link to our network API for doing that: emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57717/xmc-remote-control-codes-networkAnd I see that Roon also has a publicly available network API. So, in fact, both our processors and Roon offer this capability, so you're all set... (All you'll need to do is to write the program itself.)  Integration is the key word, I want to control is all from one device, my iPad, or a laptop. Setup, management, playback and adjust on the fly...oh, and Roon. We have the technology. I doubt the architecture of Emotiva’s processor gives way to this level of integration. |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,230
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Post by KeithL on Sept 9, 2022 15:21:06 GMT -5
As I alluded to in another post... the hard part is in the details. Our processors can and do respond to remote commands... Likewise for most other devices... Ditto for Roon... Which means that the individual devices are quite capable of "doing their part in the system"... What is necessary is for someone, like Logitech, to figure out how to talk to us, and everyone else, get it all to work together. I would have listed the Logitech Harmony as a shining example of this... but, sadly, it has been discontinued. (And we must assume that this is, at least in part, because Logitech decided it was too much work, for too little return.) What this requires is that either: 1. some company is willing to invest enough to do all the work themselves (and, like Control4, they're going to expect to be paid back for their efforts) 2. some company or group of companies is willing to invest to create a standard compelling enough that it will convince everyone else to participate I doubt the architecture of Emotiva’s processor gives way to this level of integration. Yeah, that is not what I mean by integration...think Logitech type integration |
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Post by panasonicst60 on Sept 9, 2022 16:02:35 GMT -5
I can now make a claim that the XMC-2 has better sound quality in my system than the Anthem AVM70. I hooked everything up and tweaked ARC several times to try to get the absolute best sound I could, but today I am returning the Anthem processor. I stress "in my system" I could not get the Anthem to reach the level of sound quality that I get from my XMC-2. Hope to see Firmware 3.0 soon! It doesn't surprise me one bit. Actually I expected it. That's the only reason why most of us put up with the bugs... |
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Post by msimanyi on Sept 9, 2022 21:54:35 GMT -5
dvcdude I continue to be extremely impressed with the sound quality of my RMC-1, which I imagine is quite similar to the XMC-2. I'm sure a Trinnov would be an improvement, but at a price considerably higher. I still plan to add a dedicated pre-amp for two-channel playback, one incorporating "home theater pass through", but until I decide to fork over the $$$ for that I don't feel like I'm suffering. The RMC-1 certainly is revealing enough that I can easily evaluate changes and potential hardware upgrades. I'm listening (in Reference Stereo mode) to a DSD256 recording of a jazz musician I hadn't heard of before three days ago. I'm not a jazz guy, but this recording and playback is just incredible. The RMC-1 "sound" certainly isn't a major hindrance, for me in my system.* * For those curious, I'm playing digital via Roon. My Roon core is a Grimm MU1 streamer, the DAC is a Wyred4Sound 10th Anniversary DAC, the two-channel (monoblock) amps in use at the moment are PS Audio M1200s, and speakers are Martin Logan "vintage" Aerius speakers I bought new around 1994 or 1995, paired with two Martin Logan BF210 subwoofers connected to the speakers via high-level jumpers. (I do have new ML speakers being delivered next week to "upgrade" the system.)
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Post by dvcdude on Sept 10, 2022 6:56:15 GMT -5
Actually, RTI has a third party driver for Emotiva G3P. I would be glad to install an RTI system for you.
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Post by aswiss on Sept 10, 2022 8:27:56 GMT -5
I can now make a claim that the XMC-2 has better sound quality in my system than the Anthem AVM70. I hooked everything up and tweaked ARC several times to try to get the absolute best sound I could, but today I am returning the Anthem processor. I stress "in my system" I could not get the Anthem to reach the level of sound quality that I get from my XMC-2. Hope to see Firmware 3.0 soon! The Sound is my main reason why I did not give something else a chance so far. I'm sure that even with more expensive devices, the G3P from Emo sound still better or at least even for a lower price.
on the other hand, some manufacturer do have a user friendly solution when it comes to the configuration (which on the other hand is only used for the setup).
so the only complaint I would have, is that Emo is/was not able to fix the remaining issues within a short period of time (1 year waiting is beyond everything).
So please Emotiva - finish your work and let's have a fix now.
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NicS
Sensei
Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
Posts: 238
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Post by NicS on Sept 10, 2022 17:41:02 GMT -5
If someone had told me that the release of the v3.0 firmware would be in the reign of King Charles III, I'd have assumed that someone was popping magic mushrooms while watching House of Dragons. Now I'm thinking "where's my Valerian steel"?
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NicS
Sensei
Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
Posts: 238
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Post by NicS on Sept 10, 2022 17:56:47 GMT -5
It should be painfully obvious to all who are waiting for the next firmware - Emo has not hired the right person to do their coding. If they were genuinely able to do effective recursive/iterative coding/testing/release we would see more frequent firmware releases addressing a single "major" issue with some minor house cleaning. When will we see the next firmware? It doesn't matter. By now each of us has had to figure out which workaround or headache works most of the time. I waited up till midnight the day these units first went on sale to get mine. The first firmware was "not ready for prime-time". I've suffered through having to daily power cycle. Cringe at random crazy loud static. Loss of audio. And volume weirdness (+/- 10dB) after previous firmware updates. Thankfully, most but not all of the WTF problems have been sorted. When it works it is really really good. I just hope that if/when an HDMI 2.1 board comes along that we don't start the @#$% show all over again. It may have been noted by some that my rather flippant musings on the non-availability of the v3.0 firmware for the RMC-1L. I'd like to state that I am not unsympathetic to Emotiva and the good people who work there. And like you I think I've been extraordinarily patient, finding work-arounds for all the weird little foibles that beset the use of this promising box. But still this situation is accelerating into farce. My sympathy for this situation stems from my own work. I invented an application which has become the most used on-set software tool in the motion picture industry. Called Artemis Director's Viewfinder I won an Emmy in 2018 for its decades long use on nearly every film & TV production worldwide. A large chunk of my life is taken up progressively updating the software, fixing bugs and improving the interface along guidelines gleaned from our loyal users. Sound familiar? I agree with you though, it seems that whoever is looking after the firmware development is perhaps under duress or doesn't understand that our patience can only be stretched so far. I'd also like a crack at redesigning the interface of the iOS control app for the RMC-1. It could be so much better. I mean, just having the volume control being easy to find in the dark would be helpful. Maybe I moan too much....? |
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