KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 7, 2022 13:11:58 GMT -5
I guess it's my turn to weigh in. First of all it is indeed true that neither the RMC-1L (nor any other processor we know of) works flawlessly with every brand of TV and monitor out there. And, while some of this is our fault, a lot of it is due to the fact that many manufacturers don't follow the standards as carefully as they should. It is also unfortunately fair to say that we are forced to expend a lot of effort getting our processors to work with the popular consumer brands used by many of our customers. (It isn't sufficient yo do our best to comply with the standards and pass all the tests that are required to do so.) However, while the Reavon player isn't especially popular here in the US, the Oppo 203 is virtually ubiquitous, and players by Sony and Panasonic are also quite popular. And, to be quite frank, for the most part they work properly with our processors. (You will have to disable HDMI-CEC on the Oppo to avoid CEC conflicts since by default they advertise themselves to CEC as a processor - which creates a conflict with any other processor.) Our USB input supports two-channel PCM audio - and not surround (other than "DTS encoded two-channel sources" - which are quite uncommon). We support DSD over all of our HDMI inputs... but DSD via USB is still in the future on our roadmap (we don't have it yet - although we still hope to eventually). Many players will automatically convert a DSD source to PCM when they detect that what they're connected to requires it - but some may not. I cannot even guess what's going on with that Atmos encoded MP4 file. Our processors don't play MP4 files... or handle them directly... all we do is to play the HDMI data stream we receive from the player. So it's up to the player to play that and deliver the result as a properly encoded HDMI file. I would expect all of the players you listed to be able to do so... but that will depend, to some degree, on how the file itself is encoded. (There are a lot of different ways in which an MP4 file may be encoded... and in which various players handle those.) (To be quite honest you will find that a PC, running software like VLC, will handle a far wider range of files than ANY hardware player - although the Oppo should come close.) To be fair, we do have somewhat fewer resources than a company like Marantz... Also, to be fair, we dedicate a far greater proportion of the resources we do have to things like sound quality. (And we're quite sure that we surpass them on that.) And we do continue to work out those other glitches as well. You can also rest assured that we have not stopped working on the current versions of our processors. And, while we are going to have new versions of them, they remain the same basic products, and will continue to be actively developed. Nic, I feel I would be remiss to not summarize your full situation to viewers of the forum if you continue to publicly air us out as if we have not advised and tried to do all we can for your situation. To summarize: - We have acquired and tested the very Reavon X100 player that was giving you issues. - I personally spent hours testing it with multiple processors, TVs, and projectors, and it worked every time and in fact still works now, with 4K and 1080p displays. - We offered and still offer to service your processor under the warranty, which you have chosen to not pursue. - You use a 1080p Epson projector that was originally released in Nov 2012, nearly a decade ago. I have combed this manual and made every suggestion I could come up with. We have advised that your issue with your BRP and processor presents as an HDMI conflict of some kind between the combination of devices, likely HDCP based on what we have seen. Just as you have the choice to use a different HT processor, you also have the choice to use a different projector if you wish. But being frank, compatibility issues with legacy displays that are nearly 10 years old is not on the top of the list of things that we are working on. I hope the new FW works for you, and the offer still stands to service your processor at the hardware level. But at some point you may have to accept the reality of your HDMI situation and make a change of some kind. Combining an esoteric BRP with a relatively esoteric processor and a legacy projector is not exactly a recipe for HDMI bliss. Surely you must like something about the processor. If I have overstepped, I will take the heat, but I think it is important to present the entire situation if we are going to continue here. I understand the HDMI issues and constantly advocate for customers internally to improve this. I will never deny that there are issues with the processors and that the serious delays are causing anxiety. But I think full context is important. This is something I have learned since working here: the development cycle on these processors and their components is a multiyear cycle. What I mean is that to develop something like the new HDMI 2.1 board or any of the boards in the processors, the components, especially microprocessors and other silicone, must be selected and acquired in quantity years in advance of the actual production of the final components. With the chip and semiconductor shortages, and as a small company that lacks the buying power of a massive international conglomerate, the state of things over the past few years have affected the development of the processors. Chip changes, board redesigns, versioning around multiple boards, etc. So while these hardware upgrades may seem ill-timed with the current firmware delay, the development of the future processor hardware and upgrades must happen concurrently with other development. The timing of all of this has been seriously affected by world events that I don't need to detail. So while we look at our specific processor installations in microcosm and recognize the individual frustrations, there is a bigger picture or reason for why at least some of this has happened the way it has. Decisions could have been made differently along the way, sure, but we are working to make this better. With all due respect to you Brent, you have been very attentive with regards my issues with my RMC-1L, though your summation of the situation needs a little clarification. Yes, admittedly my projector is a bit on the old side, but for critical assessment of material in my professional life I use a variety of monitors that I plug up to my RMC-1L. These range from TV Logic 4K location monitors to the Sony BVM-HX310, the motion picture industry gold standard 4K HDR color grading monitor. None of threse work well with my RMC-1L. The performance is always glitchy. I was sent a sound file to listen to yesterday. It was encoded Dolby Atmos into an MP4 file according to the Dolby specification for evaluation. I was also sent a PCM 5.1 encoded version. I was not successful listening to these files. Implementation of surround via USB has never worked properly. Your website still says that the RMC-1L has a USB digital input that supports PCM and DSD files up to 24/192k, though I've never had a DSD file play in this input and it does not seem to support multichannel, as suggested by the DSD format. I could not get any of my BluRay player to successfully playback the file either. I had to go to a friends place to hear it properly. As for Blu Ray Players, I have these units: Reavon X100, X110, X200 Sony UBP-X800 Oppo UDP-203 None of these seem to play well with the RMC1-L, with it connected to the projector or any of the monitors I have access to. Like so many people on this forum, I am a fan of what you guys do. When I'm playing Roon digital files via my Streambox, running my turntable through the balanced input set to Reference Stereo, watching movies with my AppleTV, everything works pretty well. Though it is not without the issues that most of us have continually reported here, all of which have been promised fixes with a v3.0 firmware update promised some 7 months ago. These issues include HDMI handshake issues, delays or loud pops when switching between formats, lack of functionality specified in the current spec sheet though promised in firmware updates etc etc. I know I've been a little sarcastic in this forum. Maybe with a hint of bitterness. But I'm trying the best I can to be relatively good natured while my patience is really being tested. Because frankly, when I borrowed a friend's Marantz AVR to test why I was getting so many issues with the RMC1-L with my range of source components and displays, the experience was like chalk and cheese. It just worked. No issues. And now I face the prospect that my $4,000 processor, now being sold for $2,500 will shortly be replaced by another unit that will no doubt have the same claims to specification that my RMC1-L never met, in a lingering, protracted wait for a firmware that is clear now was a low priority over the release of a new product. Tell, me; under the circumstances how do you expect to retain me as a customer? Because I would dearly love to remain one out of some perverse loyalty. Of the dozen or so products I've purchase from you they have all worked very well, other than the XMC-1 and the RMC1-L which have both been so buggy my wife refuses to touch them. So, will we ever see a v3.0 firmware? Will there ever be an upgraded HDMI board that addresses the issues so clearly detailed in this particular forum? Or will we have to drop another couple of grand to risk being exposed to yet another few years of waiting for fixes on a new product? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Oct 7, 2022 13:15:41 GMT -5
None of these seem to play well with the RMC1-L, with it connected to the projector or any of the monitors I have access to. Which of your displays is a current consumer model (less than 4 years old)? What type of HDMI cables are being used? Copper? Active Copper? Fiber? Active and fiber cables can expose HDCP issues. HDCP issues begin with the display. If the display isn't satisfied with what it can "see", then it has a fit and locks up the processor. When I first tried a fiber HDMI cable is when I got problems with lockup. But it was my display that needed a setting to be changed. It's really simple to change a setting, really difficult to find out which one. Go to any store and buy a $100 tv. A regular, consumer level tv. The cheapest you can find. Bestbuy has a 32" for that price. It should be quick to find out if it works any differently vs your other displays. |
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NicS
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Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
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Post by NicS on Oct 7, 2022 13:26:49 GMT -5
None of these seem to play well with the RMC1-L, with it connected to the projector or any of the monitors I have access to. Which of your displays is a current consumer model (less than 4 years old)? What type of HDMI cables are being used? Copper? Active Copper? Fiber? Active and fiber cables can expose HDCP issues. HDCP issues begin with the display. If the display isn't satisfied with what it can "see", then it has a fit and locks up the processor. When I first tried a fiber HDMI cable is when I got problems with lockup. But it was my display that needed a setting to be changed. It's really simple to change a setting, really difficult to find out which one. Go to any store and buy a $100 tv. A regular, consumer level tv. The cheapest you can find. Bestbuy has a 32" for that price. It should be quick to find out if it works any differently vs your other displays. I have a 2 year old Samsung I keep in my studio. I've hooked that up. Still buggy on HDMI handshake. As for HDMI cable, I use the one that Brent from Emotiva recommend I buy. Ive used 4 or 5 other HDMI cables. The only thing that resolves the issues I have is swapping out the RMC-1L for another processor. However, I like the RMC1-L for it's audio capabilities. The issue I have is restricted to playback from BluRay primarily, SACD occasionally and USB digital files. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 7, 2022 13:30:20 GMT -5
Incidentally... I don't personally know how much real 8k sourced content we'll ever see or how soon... However, regardless of that, we are starting to see a LOT of 8k TV models on the market... (and they do deliver really nice looking upsampled pictures). I've also seen one or two demos of actual footage shot in 8k and they were very impressive. If you go out to purchase a new high-end TV today it is almost certainly going to be a 4k model... And I have little doubt that, in five years, the same will be true for 8k models... The amount of data involved is also rapidly becoming less of an issue... Data storage is rapidly becoming cheaper... And many households have Internet connections that could easily support 8k streams... So we're going to be seeing plenty of 8k streaming content soon (whether it's actually filmed in 8k or just upsampled and processed to 8k). The main reason many folks are looking to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 is eARC. eARC opens up the option of streaming 8k content direct to the TV and sending full immersive Atmos content back to the processor for audio playback. The point is that you really cannot reasonably call all of this new technology "a red herring". It's here, people are buying it, and they want content to feed it, so programming WILL evolve to support it. If you look at the coverage of NAB 2022.... so far 8k has shown up mostly on video walls and limited events like the Olympics... But the price is coming down and it isn't going to go away. I remember when people were saying "We should do HDR with 1080p and not bother with 4k".... But try to buy a big screen TV today that doesn't offer at least both... And 8k is almost certainly going to be next "thing"... I find this reaction to be puzzling at best and down right unrealistic and thankless at worst. The path EMO is following with a new generation of processors is hardly surprising given the dramatic increases in processing power undoubtedly required to handle 8K. Think about it - that's 4x the resolution of 4K, and undoubtedly supports more audio/video features that further increase bandwidth and downstream processing requirements. Would you prefer EMO attempt to limp along using processing power that's 5 years old? That's not a realistic expectation - Imagine the performance complaints (if it were even technically feasible)! I find the fact that EMO plans to provide an upgrade path for the previous generation of processors to be in complete harmony with their promise of an upgradable processor platform; regardless of what hardware and software must be upgraded to get there. Interesting. I think brucelee is being quite honest and succinct, though clearly quite emotional. And who can blame him? He's 100% right. His decision to bail out of the Emotiva fold is well justified. Personally, I'm not there yet. I'm hoping that Brent and his team will pull the big white rabbit out of the hat and we'll all collectively get that warm glow back. A few other things: 8K. Really? Other than for gamers this is pointless. I do a little demonstration at the American Film Institute where I lecture in cinematography and technologies that addresses the concept of "resolution" in modern filmmaking. Most dramatic material (TV shows & movies) are shot at 24 frames per second on cameras that are barely 4K resolution. The most used camera currently in drama is the ARRI Alexa Mini, which has a peak resolution in a static frame of 3.4K in ARRIRAW, though most shows I know use this camera, like Marvelous Mrs Maisel for example, originate at 2.8K. Thera re higher resolution cameras, but most are not shot at full resolution due to the crazy amount of data they produce. The Oscar winning Bladerunner 2049 was shot by Rodger Deakins at 2.8K. The image blur of material shot at 24fps, plus the preference of "soft" lenses shot with wide apertures with diffusion filters and on-set atmosphere smoke produce an image that render at sub 1K for 95% of the time. Which is on purpose. Low resolution images tend to look more artistic. For sports however, at 4K 60hz a 4K display is preferable, but only for the graphics, because again, other artifacts reduce the "real world" resolution considerably. So to me 8K is a red herring. At home I use an HD projector. Most of the time I'm watching movies. My projector is professionally calibrated and looks pretty decent. I've demoed 4K laser projectors at home, which looked slightly better, but not worth the $5,000 difference. If I want to evaluate something critically I use a professional grading monitor. But who can keep a $50K 31" monitor inn the house? There is virtually no 8K content available. I don't know a single cinematographer currently shooting in 8K. In reality, 4K is about all you would need for domestic use, outside gaming or heavily graphics orientated display. For drama even 4K is overkill. HDR is another story... |
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NicS
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Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
Posts: 238
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Post by NicS on Oct 7, 2022 13:39:31 GMT -5
I guess it's my turn to weigh in. First of all it is indeed true that neither the RMC-1L (nor any other processor we know of) works flawlessly with every brand of TV and monitor out there. And, while some of this is our fault, a lot of it is due to the fact that many manufacturers don't follow the standards as carefully as they should. It is also unfortunately fair to say that we are forced to expend a lot of effort getting our processors to work with the popular consumer brands used by many of our customers. (It isn't sufficient yo do our best to comply with the standards and pass all the tests that are required to do so.) However, while the Reavon player isn't especially popular here in the US, the Oppo 203 is virtually ubiquitous, and players by Sony and Panasonic are also quite popular. And, to be quite frank, for the most part they work properly with our processors. (You will have to disable HDMI-CEC on the Oppo to avoid CEC conflicts since by default they advertise themselves to CEC as a processor - which creates a conflict with any other processor.) Our USB input supports two-channel PCM audio - and not surround (other than "DTS encoded two-channel sources" - which are quite uncommon). We support DSD over all of our HDMI inputs... but DSD via USB is still in the future on our roadmap (we don't have it yet - although we still hope to eventually). Many players will automatically convert a DSD source to PCM when they detect that what they're connected to requires it - but some may not. I cannot even guess what's going on with that Atmos encoded MP4 file. Our processors don't play MP4 files... or handle them directly... all we do is to play the HDMI data stream we receive from the player. So it's up to the player to play that and deliver the result as a properly encoded HDMI file. I would expect all of the players you listed to be able to do so... but that will depend, to some degree, on how the file itself is encoded. (There are a lot of different ways in which an MP4 file may be encoded... and in which various players handle those.) (To be quite honest you will find that a PC, running software like VLC, will handle a far wider range of files than ANY hardware player - although the Oppo should come close.) To be fair, we do have somewhat fewer resources than a company like Marantz... Also, to be fair, we dedicate a far greater proportion of the resources we do have to things like sound quality. (And we're quite sure that we surpass them on that.) And we do continue to work out those other glitches as well. You can also rest assured that we have not stopped working on the current versions of our processors. And, while we are going to have new versions of them, they remain the same basic products, and will continue to be actively developed. With all due respect to you Brent, you have been very attentive with regards my issues with my RMC-1L, though your summation of the situation needs a little clarification. Yes, admittedly my projector is a bit on the old side, but for critical assessment of material in my professional life I use a variety of monitors that I plug up to my RMC-1L. These range from TV Logic 4K location monitors to the Sony BVM-HX310, the motion picture industry gold standard 4K HDR color grading monitor. None of threse work well with my RMC-1L. The performance is always glitchy. I was sent a sound file to listen to yesterday. It was encoded Dolby Atmos into an MP4 file according to the Dolby specification for evaluation. I was also sent a PCM 5.1 encoded version. I was not successful listening to these files. Implementation of surround via USB has never worked properly. Your website still says that the RMC-1L has a USB digital input that supports PCM and DSD files up to 24/192k, though I've never had a DSD file play in this input and it does not seem to support multichannel, as suggested by the DSD format. I could not get any of my BluRay player to successfully playback the file either. I had to go to a friends place to hear it properly. As for Blu Ray Players, I have these units: Reavon X100, X110, X200 Sony UBP-X800 Oppo UDP-203 None of these seem to play well with the RMC1-L, with it connected to the projector or any of the monitors I have access to. Like so many people on this forum, I am a fan of what you guys do. When I'm playing Roon digital files via my Streambox, running my turntable through the balanced input set to Reference Stereo, watching movies with my AppleTV, everything works pretty well. Though it is not without the issues that most of us have continually reported here, all of which have been promised fixes with a v3.0 firmware update promised some 7 months ago. These issues include HDMI handshake issues, delays or loud pops when switching between formats, lack of functionality specified in the current spec sheet though promised in firmware updates etc etc. I know I've been a little sarcastic in this forum. Maybe with a hint of bitterness. But I'm trying the best I can to be relatively good natured while my patience is really being tested. Because frankly, when I borrowed a friend's Marantz AVR to test why I was getting so many issues with the RMC1-L with my range of source components and displays, the experience was like chalk and cheese. It just worked. No issues. And now I face the prospect that my $4,000 processor, now being sold for $2,500 will shortly be replaced by another unit that will no doubt have the same claims to specification that my RMC1-L never met, in a lingering, protracted wait for a firmware that is clear now was a low priority over the release of a new product. Tell, me; under the circumstances how do you expect to retain me as a customer? Because I would dearly love to remain one out of some perverse loyalty. Of the dozen or so products I've purchase from you they have all worked very well, other than the XMC-1 and the RMC1-L which have both been so buggy my wife refuses to touch them. So, will we ever see a v3.0 firmware? Will there ever be an upgraded HDMI board that addresses the issues so clearly detailed in this particular forum? Or will we have to drop another couple of grand to risk being exposed to yet another few years of waiting for fixes on a new product? Keith, thanks for such a detailed reply. My responses below. I agree, AVPs seem to be universally buggy, though I fail to understand why my RMC1-L should be more buggy than a unit costing a quarter of the cost. And like I said, I have issues with ANY display I plug in, from domestic grade to professional grade. The Oppo 203 was discontinued as a product nearly 4 years ago. The Reavon units, admittedly a new product, is largely based on the Oppo players, offering the same specs though updated. The user interface for example is almost exactly the same. The Emotiva website continues to make claims on specifications for the RMC1-L with regard to the USB input that are as yet unimplemented. This is misleading at best. maybe that should be corrected to reflect the reality of the situation? Along with the MP4 file I was sent a WAV 5.1 file, which I cold not get to play in surround either. It played 2 channels only. Maybe that's a restriction of the USB input on the Emotiva? Can you let us know when we might see the mysterious v3.0 firmware? Will it be by the end of 2022 or early 2023? |
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Post by PaulBe on Oct 7, 2022 14:44:36 GMT -5
Sometimes it takes three glasses of Bordeaux to get things working. Then I'm like "screw the movie, I need smooth jazz....." Nic, I feel I would be remiss to not summarize your full situation to viewers of the forum if you continue to publicly air us out as if we have not advised and tried to do all we can for your situation. To summarize: - We have acquired and tested the very Reavon X100 player that was giving you issues. - I personally spent hours testing it with multiple processors, TVs, and projectors, and it worked every time and in fact still works now, with 4K and 1080p displays. - We offered and still offer to service your processor under the warranty, which you have chosen to not pursue. - You use a 1080p Epson projector that was originally released in Nov 2012, nearly a decade ago. I have combed this manual and made every suggestion I could come up with. We have advised that your issue with your BRP and processor presents as an HDMI conflict of some kind between the combination of devices, likely HDCP based on what we have seen. Just as you have the choice to use a different HT processor, you also have the choice to use a different projector if you wish. But being frank, compatibility issues with legacy displays that are nearly 10 years old is not on the top of the list of things that we are working on. I hope the new FW works for you, and the offer still stands to service your processor at the hardware level. But at some point you may have to accept the reality of your HDMI situation and make a change of some kind. Combining an esoteric BRP with a relatively esoteric processor and a legacy projector is not exactly a recipe for HDMI bliss. Surely you must like something about the processor. If I have overstepped, I will take the heat, but I think it is important to present the entire situation if we are going to continue here. I understand the HDMI issues and constantly advocate for customers internally to improve this. I will never deny that there are issues with the processors and that the serious delays are causing anxiety. But I think full context is important. This is something I have learned since working here: the development cycle on these processors and their components is a multiyear cycle. What I mean is that to develop something like the new HDMI 2.1 board or any of the boards in the processors, the components, especially microprocessors and other silicone, must be selected and acquired in quantity years in advance of the actual production of the final components. With the chip and semiconductor shortages, and as a small company that lacks the buying power of a massive international conglomerate, the state of things over the past few years have affected the development of the processors. Chip changes, board redesigns, versioning around multiple boards, etc. So while these hardware upgrades may seem ill-timed with the current firmware delay, the development of the future processor hardware and upgrades must happen concurrently with other development. The timing of all of this has been seriously affected by world events that I don't need to detail. So while we look at our specific processor installations in microcosm and recognize the individual frustrations, there is a bigger picture or reason for why at least some of this has happened the way it has. Decisions could have been made differently along the way, sure, but we are working to make this better. I have been a vocal critic at times. However, I honor Emotiva’s approach to satisfying both their customers and the future of Emotiva in a seriously trying time of adverse world events. Many things are out of our control. You have not overstepped. I will throw you no heat, but offer you and Emotiva some warmth. May the G4Processors and G3P upgrades be a rousing success, with fewer problems. I will be upgrading my RMC-1L. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 7, 2022 14:56:47 GMT -5
Your first question comes up a lot. And it deserves a real answer. (But you may not find that answer to be very satisfying.) The HDMI standard itself is incredibly complex. But, even worse, in many places it is somewhat flexible and, shall we say, open to interpretation. Unfortunately, because of that, it is not at all unusual to have two devices which both "fully comply with the standard" but still won't work together. This means that creating code that does what you want, and that complies with the standard, is only the first part of the job. The second part, which is often much more complex, is to get your product to work with everyone else's product. And, of course, while we're doing that, those other companies are changing their products to solve problems that they have. The Reavon player is what I would consider a clone of the Oppo. It has the same features, and a similar user interface, although I'm told that the internal hardware is rather different. I'm also told that, for the most part, it does work pretty much the same. The Oppo players were absolutely the gold standard. Although perhaps it serves to illustrate how difficult this market is that Oppo stopped making disc players. (They also stopped making their other audio products; they now only make smart phones; which always was their core product.) The USB input on the RMC-1L is indeed limited to two-channel PCM audio... which is the norm for USB audio on "audio DACs". There is insufficient bandwidth on that type of input to support multi-channel audio. There are ways of encapsulating multi-channel audio over a USB connection - but all have limitations. DoP is a method for sending encapsulated DSD over USB. (DoP is still on the roadmap, but is not yet implemented; and will be removed from the specs on the website to avoid further confusion). DTS CDs have a compressed surround sound signal encoded in stereo PCM audio (we do support that - but it is pretty uncommon). There are also ways of sending multi-channel audio through USB using an ASIO driver (but they are somewhat limited and we do not support them). If you check the specs on the Oppo player you will find that the only way it can output DSD digital audio from an SACD is via HDMI. You have the option of actually delivering DSD audio or of converting it to PCM. The RMC-1L will play both DSD and PCM via HDMI - and will play the DSD content without converting it first. The Oppo can generally play most audio and video files that a computer can play. (We assume that the Reavon has similar capabilities.) The next firmware release isn't really mysterious. We were planning to release FW v3.0, but found some additional bugs in final testing, and so decided to delay the release. We are optimistic that it will be ready for release in another few weeks... but I'm not going to promise. I guess it's my turn to weigh in. Keith, thanks for such a detailed reply. My responses below. I agree, AVPs seem to be universally buggy, though I fail to understand why my RMC1-L should be more buggy than a unit costing a quarter of the cost. And like I said, I have issues with ANY display I plug in, from domestic grade to professional grade. The Oppo 203 was discontinued as a product nearly 4 years ago. The Reavon units, admittedly a new product, is largely based on the Oppo players, offering the same specs though updated. The user interface for example is almost exactly the same. The Emotiva website continues to make claims on specifications for the RMC1-L with regard to the USB input that are as yet unimplemented. This is misleading at best. maybe that should be corrected to reflect the reality of the situation? Along with the MP4 file I was sent a WAV 5.1 file, which I cold not get to play in surround either. It played 2 channels only. Maybe that's a restriction of the USB input on the Emotiva? Can you let us know when we might see the mysterious v3.0 firmware? Will it be by the end of 2022 or early 2023? |
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NicS
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Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
Posts: 238
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Post by NicS on Oct 7, 2022 15:08:15 GMT -5
Your first question comes up a lot. And it deserves a real answer. (But you may not find that answer to be very satisfying.) The HDMI standard itself is incredibly complex. But, even worse, in many places it is somewhat flexible and, shall we say, open to interpretation. Unfortunately, because of that, it is not at all unusual to have two devices which both "fully comply with the standard" but still won't work together. This means that creating code that does what you want, and that complies with the standard, is only the first part of the job. The second part, which is often much more complex, is to get your product to work with everyone else's product. And, of course, while we're doing that, those other companies are changing their products to solve problems that they have. The Reavon player is what I would consider a clone of the Oppo. It has the same features, and a similar user interface, although I'm told that the internal hardware is rather different. I'm also told that, for the most part, it does work pretty much the same. The Oppo players were absolutely the gold standard. Although perhaps it serves to illustrate how difficult this market is that Oppo stopped making disc players. (They also stopped making their other audio products; they now only make smart phones; which always was their core product.) The USB input on the RMC-1L is indeed limited to two-channel PCM audio... which is the norm for USB audio on "audio DACs". There is insufficient bandwidth on that type of input to support multi-channel audio. There are ways of encapsulating multi-channel audio over a USB connection - but all have limitations. DoP is a method for sending encapsulated DSD over USB. (DoP is still on the roadmap, but is not yet implemented; and will be removed from the specs on the website to avoid further confusion). DTS CDs have a compressed surround sound signal encoded in stereo PCM audio (we do support that - but it is pretty uncommon). There are also ways of sending multi-channel audio through USB using an ASIO driver (but they are somewhat limited and we do not support them). If you check the specs on the Oppo player you will find that the only way it can output DSD digital audio from an SACD is via HDMI. You have the option of actually delivering DSD audio or of converting it to PCM. The RMC-1L will play both DSD and PCM via HDMI - and will play the DSD content without converting it first. The Oppo can generally play most audio and video files that a computer can play. (We assume that the Reavon has similar capabilities.) The next firmware release isn't really mysterious. We were planning to release FW v3.0, but found some additional bugs in final testing, and so decided to delay the release. We are optimistic that it will be ready for release in another few weeks... but I'm not going to promise. Keith, thanks for such a detailed reply. My responses below. I agree, AVPs seem to be universally buggy, though I fail to understand why my RMC1-L should be more buggy than a unit costing a quarter of the cost. And like I said, I have issues with ANY display I plug in, from domestic grade to professional grade. The Oppo 203 was discontinued as a product nearly 4 years ago. The Reavon units, admittedly a new product, is largely based on the Oppo players, offering the same specs though updated. The user interface for example is almost exactly the same. The Emotiva website continues to make claims on specifications for the RMC1-L with regard to the USB input that are as yet unimplemented. This is misleading at best. maybe that should be corrected to reflect the reality of the situation? Along with the MP4 file I was sent a WAV 5.1 file, which I cold not get to play in surround either. It played 2 channels only. Maybe that's a restriction of the USB input on the Emotiva? Can you let us know when we might see the mysterious v3.0 firmware? Will it be by the end of 2022 or early 2023? The it's probably best you get the marketing department to remove the bit online where is says: (1): USB Type B digital audio (UAC2 USB audio up to 24/192k) Digital PCM and DSD audio supported on all HDMI inputs and USB input to read: (1): USB Type B digital stereo audio (UAC2 USB audio up to 24/192k) Digital PCM stereo audio supported on USB input Digital PCM and multichannel DSD audio supported on HDMI inputs What is it with the "two weeks" time-frame. What about "we'll release the v3.0 firmware on November 1st"? Something concrete? |
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NicS
Sensei
Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
Posts: 238
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Post by NicS on Oct 7, 2022 15:32:59 GMT -5
Incidentally... I don't personally know how much real 8k sourced content we'll ever see or how soon... However, regardless of that, we are starting to see a LOT of 8k TV models on the market... (and they do deliver really nice looking upsampled pictures). I've also seen one or two demos of actual footage shot in 8k and they were very impressive. If you go out to purchase a new high-end TV today it is almost certainly going to be a 4k model... And I have little doubt that, in five years, the same will be true for 8k models... The amount of data involved is also rapidly becoming less of an issue... Data storage is rapidly becoming cheaper... And many households have Internet connections that could easily support 8k streams... So we're going to be seeing plenty of 8k streaming content soon (whether it's actually filmed in 8k or just upsampled and processed to 8k). The main reason many folks are looking to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 is eARC. eARC opens up the option of streaming 8k content direct to the TV and sending full immersive Atmos content back to the processor for audio playback. The point is that you really cannot reasonably call all of this new technology "a red herring". It's here, people are buying it, and they want content to feed it, so programming WILL evolve to support it. If you look at the coverage of NAB 2022.... so far 8k has shown up mostly on video walls and limited events like the Olympics... But the price is coming down and it isn't going to go away. I remember when people were saying "We should do HDR with 1080p and not bother with 4k".... But try to buy a big screen TV today that doesn't offer at least both... And 8k is almost certainly going to be next "thing"... Interesting. I think brucelee is being quite honest and succinct, though clearly quite emotional. And who can blame him? He's 100% right. His decision to bail out of the Emotiva fold is well justified. Personally, I'm not there yet. I'm hoping that Brent and his team will pull the big white rabbit out of the hat and we'll all collectively get that warm glow back. A few other things: 8K. Really? Other than for gamers this is pointless. I do a little demonstration at the American Film Institute where I lecture in cinematography and technologies that addresses the concept of "resolution" in modern filmmaking. Most dramatic material (TV shows & movies) are shot at 24 frames per second on cameras that are barely 4K resolution. The most used camera currently in drama is the ARRI Alexa Mini, which has a peak resolution in a static frame of 3.4K in ARRIRAW, though most shows I know use this camera, like Marvelous Mrs Maisel for example, originate at 2.8K. Thera re higher resolution cameras, but most are not shot at full resolution due to the crazy amount of data they produce. The Oscar winning Bladerunner 2049 was shot by Rodger Deakins at 2.8K. The image blur of material shot at 24fps, plus the preference of "soft" lenses shot with wide apertures with diffusion filters and on-set atmosphere smoke produce an image that render at sub 1K for 95% of the time. Which is on purpose. Low resolution images tend to look more artistic. For sports however, at 4K 60hz a 4K display is preferable, but only for the graphics, because again, other artifacts reduce the "real world" resolution considerably. So to me 8K is a red herring. At home I use an HD projector. Most of the time I'm watching movies. My projector is professionally calibrated and looks pretty decent. I've demoed 4K laser projectors at home, which looked slightly better, but not worth the $5,000 difference. If I want to evaluate something critically I use a professional grading monitor. But who can keep a $50K 31" monitor inn the house? There is virtually no 8K content available. I don't know a single cinematographer currently shooting in 8K. In reality, 4K is about all you would need for domestic use, outside gaming or heavily graphics orientated display. For drama even 4K is overkill. HDR is another story... Undoubtedly Keith. 8K will be the next buzzword to sell TVs and other equipment. But the content you watch on your TV will be shot by cinematographers like me who engage in creating the aesthetics of movies or TV shows. We are in the business of managing emotional impact in storytelling. There isn't much of a role of hyper-real 8K imagery in that field of entertainment. I can see a use for it in sports, nature documentaries that kind of thing though. But I'm pretty sure 4K is about enough pixels for that kind of thing. As soon as I can afford it, I'll get rid of the projector for an LED wall. The one at the Sony Pro Demo center in LA is mind boggling. Also mind bogglingly expensive. Not only from a resolution viewpoint but from one of dynamic range. It's a little overwhelming. Having said that, I represent a company called Caldwell who make anamorphic lenses form the motion picture industry. This type of lens is not a great resolver but has a very specific "look". I talked David Klein into shooting them on the new series of Mandalorian as they helped in smoothing out the LED background walls they were using. While the delivery spec of that show was 4K, these lenses disrupt the image resolution in such a way that actual picture resolution would be barely above 1.5K, and only in those areas of the frame that are in focus (with anamorphic you get very reduced depth of field). Anyhooo.... |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,093
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Post by ttocs on Oct 7, 2022 16:34:24 GMT -5
Which of your displays is a current consumer model (less than 4 years old)? What type of HDMI cables are being used? Copper? Active Copper? Fiber? Active and fiber cables can expose HDCP issues. HDCP issues begin with the display. If the display isn't satisfied with what it can "see", then it has a fit and locks up the processor. When I first tried a fiber HDMI cable is when I got problems with lockup. But it was my display that needed a setting to be changed. It's really simple to change a setting, really difficult to find out which one. Go to any store and buy a $100 tv. A regular, consumer level tv. The cheapest you can find. Bestbuy has a 32" for that price. It should be quick to find out if it works any differently vs your other displays. I have a 2 year old Samsung I keep in my studio. I've hooked that up. Still buggy on HDMI handshake. As for HDMI cable, I use the one that Brent from Emotiva recommend I buy. Ive used 4 or 5 other HDMI cables. The only thing that resolves the issues I have is swapping out the RMC-1L for another processor. However, I like the RMC1-L for it's audio capabilities. The issue I have is restricted to playback from BluRay primarily, SACD occasionally and USB digital files. Then I can only recommend to send your processor to Emotiva for repair. Even with my buggy Sony X700 player, which was not good at DV handshakes, and couldn't make it through a 4k HDR movie longer than 1:50 without freezing, DV would work after selecting the X700 - starting the movie disc - pausing - switching to another input then back - then play the movie. It was only the first startup of a session that DV would not work because of the way that player would not renegotiate after initiating Play, so I had to use any other method which included changing inputs on the Sony tv, anything that would force a new handshake would work. I still have the player but I won't even give it to anyone I know because of these two issues. The Sony firmware that made DV work was released months after I bought the player, so maybe they just didn't get something right. As extra info and maybe more evidence that your processor has a fault somewhere, my OPPO 105 plays everything including MKV on USB and burned to disc video files without fault. Can you please give me a scenario that I might be able to duplicate an issue with? Something I can get access to, whether it's a blu-ray movie or something else. I don't have the Epson 5040 anymore but still have an older PJ, an Epson 2040. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 7, 2022 16:38:38 GMT -5
… A few other things: 8K. Really? Other than for gamers this is pointless. I do a little demonstration at the American Film Institute where I lecture in cinematography and technologies that addresses the concept of "resolution" in modern filmmaking. Most dramatic material (TV shows & movies) are shot at 24 frames per second on cameras that are barely 4K resolution. The most used camera currently in drama is the ARRI Alexa Mini, which has a peak resolution in a static frame of 3.4K in ARRIRAW, though most shows I know use this camera, like Marvelous Mrs Maisel for example, originate at 2.8K. Thera re higher resolution cameras, but most are not shot at full resolution due to the crazy amount of data they produce. The Oscar winning Bladerunner 2049 was shot by Rodger Deakins at 2.8K. The image blur of material shot at 24fps, plus the preference of "soft" lenses shot with wide apertures with diffusion filters and on-set atmosphere smoke produce an image that render at sub 1K for 95% of the time. Which is on purpose. Low resolution images tend to look more artistic. For sports however, at 4K 60hz a 4K display is preferable, but only for the graphics, because again, other artifacts reduce the "real world" resolution considerably. So to me 8K is a red herring … Without commenting or taking sides, I feel you mischarcterize the ‘feature’. Agreed, most of do not want or need 8K for many reasons including those you mention, and that ‘most’ of us don’t have 8K TVs, but what some want is HDMI 2.1, 8K is a subset of that. How about the promise of faster switching, eARC, higher frame rate 4K. I’m just saying that to imply that 8K is the primary force driving this upgrade is IMO missing the bigger picture. Again, I’m not disagreeing with your points, just the emphasis. |
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NicS
Sensei
Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
Posts: 238
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Post by NicS on Oct 7, 2022 16:45:27 GMT -5
I have a 2 year old Samsung I keep in my studio. I've hooked that up. Still buggy on HDMI handshake. As for HDMI cable, I use the one that Brent from Emotiva recommend I buy. Ive used 4 or 5 other HDMI cables. The only thing that resolves the issues I have is swapping out the RMC-1L for another processor. However, I like the RMC1-L for it's audio capabilities. The issue I have is restricted to playback from BluRay primarily, SACD occasionally and USB digital files. Then I can only recommend to send your processor to Emotiva for repair. Even with my buggy Sony X700 player, which was not good at DV handshakes, and couldn't make it through a 4k HDR movie longer than 1:50 without freezing, DV would work after selecting the X700 - starting the movie disc - pausing - switching to another input then back - then play the movie. It was only the first startup of a session that DV would not work because of the way that player would not renegotiate after initiating Play, so I had to use any other method which included changing inputs on the Sony tv, anything that would force a new handshake would work. I still have the player but I won't even give it to anyone I know because of these two issues. The Sony firmware that made DV work was released months after I bought the player, so maybe they just didn't get something right. As extra info and maybe more evidence that your processor has a fault somewhere, my OPPO 105 plays everything including MKV on USB and burned to disc video files without fault. Can you please give me a scenario that I might be able to duplicate an issue with? Something I can get access to, whether it's a blu-ray movie or something else. I don't have the Epson 5040 anymore but still have an older PJ, an Epson 2040. If the v3.0 firmware does not rectify the situation and the v2.1 HDMI board is available, yes, I'll be sending it in. |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,093
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Post by ttocs on Oct 7, 2022 16:55:44 GMT -5
Then I can only recommend to send your processor to Emotiva for repair. Even with my buggy Sony X700 player, which was not good at DV handshakes, and couldn't make it through a 4k HDR movie longer than 1:50 without freezing, DV would work after selecting the X700 - starting the movie disc - pausing - switching to another input then back - then play the movie. It was only the first startup of a session that DV would not work because of the way that player would not renegotiate after initiating Play, so I had to use any other method which included changing inputs on the Sony tv, anything that would force a new handshake would work. I still have the player but I won't even give it to anyone I know because of these two issues. The Sony firmware that made DV work was released months after I bought the player, so maybe they just didn't get something right. As extra info and maybe more evidence that your processor has a fault somewhere, my OPPO 105 plays everything including MKV on USB and burned to disc video files without fault. Can you please give me a scenario that I might be able to duplicate an issue with? Something I can get access to, whether it's a blu-ray movie or something else. I don't have the Epson 5040 anymore but still have an older PJ, an Epson 2040. If the v3.0 firmware does not rectify the situation and the v2.1 HDMI board is available, yes, I'll be sending it in. I'd be shocked if the new firmware fixes the issues. But, sometimes just re-flashing the firmware has fixed issues for some folks, so 'ya never know. But if the issue continues, sending it in for a fix and an updated HDMI board would be a good move. |
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Post by aswiss on Oct 7, 2022 17:07:02 GMT -5
I use my oppo203 - I can play DSD Stereo and MultiChannel over HDMI with no issues.
I can also browse my NAS for DSD Files - and they play without issues.
I don't use the USB DAC in the RMC-1 - because my Streamer simply sounds better, has a nice frontend, and all my Music plays within Roon anyway (also the Stereo DSD Files).
All HDMI CEC is turned OFF, on any of my devices - the only issues for me - the pop/clicks while format changes within same source.
DV and HDR10 are both working on the oppo, the shield TV and even my IP-TV Box works for both.
So either some of you had got a monday batch G3P or defect or there is something within the rest of your chain.
I'm fine with mine - and as long as its like this - no need to change, or upgrade. But please roll out the FW 3.0 to make the issues go away 100%
My devices are shown in my signature.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 7, 2022 17:08:00 GMT -5
If the v3.0 firmware does not rectify the situation and the v2.1 HDMI board is available, yes, I'll be sending it in. But it’s not the 2.1 board, it’s the eARC board. |
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Post by alexreusch on Oct 8, 2022 0:03:27 GMT -5
I have no issues with the company moving on to a next gen product.
However, the promised potential of the current RMC-1 product line has never been exploited. On the contrary, even years after its introduction, the product still looks like it is just out of the beta phase, and long-promised bug fixes through a "miracle" firmware upgrade (3.0) are still not available. Also, not even the first HDMI board upgrade (2.1) is available, which is actually the main reason to invest in a slightly more expensive but modular system, as this is exactly the technology part that is changing extremely fast. In all honesty, from this aspect it is rather surprising that Emotiva is announcing a successor platform at this point in time. It's like you are publicly admitting: We screwed up, can't move forward, and are therefore leaving the old platform (and its customers) behind.
I can definitely live with the current state of the product, since I use an overall very simple setup and have therefore been spared many problems. However, some bugs also affect me (such as occasional clattering of the audio signal when changing the video stream via ATV4K). Overall, your product has had a much shorter life cycle than the Marantz AV8805 which, by the way, has received an HDMI 2.1 board upgrade in the real world. So I ask myself why I should choose in the future to enter another beta program from a manufacturer, whose product will never get out of this phase and even the promised modularity of the product will never be realized? Emotiva pretends to be a "boutique" AV manufacturer, but its ideas in terms of model servicing are exactly exemplified by the large "mass manufacturer" (Marantz). Why should you do this? Would it not be better to go with a manufacturer whose products run much more stable overall and are in no way behind in terms of product upgrades?
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Post by waynestv on Oct 8, 2022 13:47:32 GMT -5
In case it might be helpful to others (and apologies if this has already been covered), I have solved a very annoying crackle/pop along with quick loud volume burst every time I changed channels on Comcast STB. After trying a variety of other solutions, I finally changed the Comcast STB HDMI Audio Output from "Expert Mode" to "Auto Detect" and both problems (pop and temporary volume burst) have gone away. Happy to report that my XMC-2 is now working very well.
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xeno
Minor Hero
Posts: 50
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Post by xeno on Oct 8, 2022 18:40:27 GMT -5
Like most of you I have been waiting for the 3.0 update in hopes that it fixes my hdmi handshake issues, and having to boot in LPM every time to avoid lockups. Not to mention the complete system lockup if unit is left on too long. I don't make a lot of money and all of my gear is very hard earned. So when it came to upgrading my old Onkyo RZ-800 I decided to go for a processor. Having already owned an Emotiva XPA-5 amp for many years , I decided to give them a shot. Saved up and sold old equipment. After over a year of reboots, unplugs, and lockups, I'm a bit dismayed at the news of a 4th gen processor. I understand the need to move forward, but fix what you promised in the first place, then move forward. I feel like we're being left in the dust and it's not a good feeling. I'll keep my RMC-1L because when it's working properly, it sounds phenomenal. Not sure I'll be able to afford (money-wise and mentally) an upgrade at this point. |
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Post by carbonsummit on Oct 8, 2022 20:12:29 GMT -5
The main reason many folks are looking to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 is eARC. eARC opens up the option of streaming 8k content direct to the TV and sending full immersive Atmos content back to the processor for audio playback. Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious but the benefit of HDMI 2.1 is that one could stream with the TV as the source, and send full Atmos to the processor? I bought a Nvidia Shield Pro so I could hook directly up to my RMC-1 and avoid any limitations with HDMI 2.0 when I added Atmos speakers. So in my case am I right that upgrading to HDMI 2.1 won't really benefit me? I don't have any issues with HDMI switching, 90% of my use is the Nvidia and 10% is my LG UBK90 BluRay player. Both seem to play nice with the RMC-1. Maybe my simple system is in the sweet spot where everything works and I can be done carrying about upgrades and new firmware versions? |
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,093
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Post by ttocs on Oct 8, 2022 20:53:54 GMT -5
The main reason many folks are looking to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 is eARC. eARC opens up the option of streaming 8k content direct to the TV and sending full immersive Atmos content back to the processor for audio playback. Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious but the benefit of HDMI 2.1 is that one could stream with the TV as the source, and send full Atmos to the processor? I bought a Nvidia Shield Pro so I could hook directly up to my RMC-1 and avoid any limitations with HDMI 2.0 when I added Atmos speakers. So in my case am I right that upgrading to HDMI 2.1 won't really benefit me? I don't have any issues with HDMI switching, 90% of my use is the Nvidia and 10% is my LG UBK90 BluRay player. Both seem to play nice with the RMC-1. Maybe my simple system is in the sweet spot where everything works and I can be done carrying about upgrades and new firmware versions? Below is a table from Audioholics.com showing ARC vs eARC differences, including ATMOS and audio bandwidth specs. If you are getting uncompressed ATMOS at high bandwidth, then yes, you already have that part of HDMI 2.1 at your disposal.  |
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Nic, I feel I would be remiss to not summarize your full situation to viewers of the forum if you continue to publicly air us out as if we have not advised and tried to do all we can for your situation. To summarize:
