richb
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Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
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Post by richb on Nov 1, 2022 7:52:52 GMT -5
Most reviewers are given product on consignment and contact the vendor prior to review. This is how the world works. - Rich "Anthem was pretty dismissive of ASR which resulted in a scathing review of the AVM60. Since, it appears that Anthem is much more cooperative which resulted in an excellent review of the AVM70." Thanks for teaching me how the world works. There is nothing improper about reaching out to the vendor to comment or confirmation. ASR can be a resource, especially for smaller vendors. Some manufacturers have figured this out and send samples. It is not a bad idea to keep SINAD in the 100 range or better, if the product is to be considered high-end by ASR. Seems like a win-win to me, the product demonstrates its engineering chops and gets good reviews. - Rich |
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Post by marcl on Nov 1, 2022 7:59:09 GMT -5
Speaking to the ASR discussion .... might be useful to watch this interview with Amir. He talks about his background, motivations and process. I felt like I understood his context better and at least he has the technical chops and experience to try his best to be consistent. Not infallible, but with the best intentions. Then yes ... if we tend to agree or disagree with his conclusions, he still provides us with a resource ... a reference point ...
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 1, 2022 8:10:38 GMT -5
"Anthem was pretty dismissive of ASR which resulted in a scathing review of the AVM60. Since, it appears that Anthem is much more cooperative which resulted in an excellent review of the AVM70." Thanks for teaching me how the world works. There is nothing improper about reaching out to the vendor to comment or confirmation. ASR can be a resource, especially for smaller vendors. Some manufacturers have figured this out and send samples. It is not a bad idea to keep SINAD in the 100 range or better, if the product is to be considered high-end by ASR. Seems like a win-win to me, the product demonstrates its engineering chops and gets good reviews. - Rich I use reviewers’ comments as I see fit. As a reference source, reading between the lines is valuable. The reviewer’s main job is maintaining his guru status and paycheck. The more dazzling the charts, the more prolific the technoBabel(sic), the greater the guru status. To borrow the sentiment of a Shaw quote - ‘Those who can’t, review’. Generally, they are a sort like most broadcast talent – talking heads with more image than substance. As a director I knew used to say – “Cue the meat”. Read the reviews because there is not much else out there. Then, apply a large dose of common sense and discernment. This is how an individual can work well in the world as it is. “It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," "You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to."  |
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NicS
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Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
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Post by NicS on Nov 2, 2022 16:50:14 GMT -5
Thought I might check in. You know, see if v3.0 slipped into existence without my knowledge. Alas.
I'm thinking January maybe? About the time the Marantz AV 10 comes out. Decisions, decisions....
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Post by thezone on Nov 2, 2022 19:19:07 GMT -5
Thought I might check in. You know, see if v3.0 slipped into existence without my knowledge. Alas. I'm thinking January maybe? About the time the Marantz AV 10 comes out. Decisions, decisions.... Bit of a price difference where I live! The AV10 is $12,000 aud. I love the promo picture on Marantz's website, shows $20,000+ worth of AV processor and amp in what looks like a multi-million dollar apartment but weirdly no speakers for them to drive? Just a TV on the wall and a caption "Believe in Quality". So if you believe hard enough do you not need speakers? Clearly the couple in the bottom photo don't give a sh&t about HT or sound, they just bought them because they were expensive and look good.  Oh and also, I checked the manual of the AV10 and you cannot allocate bass management to one sub or group of subs and LFE only to another sub or group of subs which still gives the XMC-2 and RMC-1 an advantage imo. |
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NicS
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Will the G4 upgrade help quell my RMC1-L frustrations...?
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Post by NicS on Nov 2, 2022 19:33:49 GMT -5
Thought I might check in. You know, see if v3.0 slipped into existence without my knowledge. Alas. I'm thinking January maybe? About the time the Marantz AV 10 comes out. Decisions, decisions.... Bit of a price difference where I live! The AV10 is $12,000 aud. I love the promo picture on Marantz's website, shows $20,000+ worth of AV processor and amp in what looks like a multi-million dollar apartment but weirdly no speakers for them to drive? Just a TV on the wall and a caption "Believe in Quality". So if you believe hard enough do you not need speakers? Clearly the couple in the bottom photo don't give a sh&t about HT or sound, they just bought them because they were expensive and look good. View AttachmentSpeakers? They are built into the walls. If you are that rich, you can afford stuff like that. |
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Post by markc on Nov 3, 2022 0:50:55 GMT -5
Clearly the couple in the bottom photo don't give a sh&t about HT or sound, they just bought them because they were expensive and look good. Maybe the couple in the photo just enjoy owning a system that works properly and as intended to deliver audio to whatever ceiling or other speakers they have, however non-purist that may be. A system that simply works to switch and distribute audio can create more pleasure and less frustration than a system like mine where fiddling with cycling inputs or surround modes is needed, all the rear-panel switch reboots I have to do, plus the constant doubt about whether the surround sound processor is working properly or whether the audio is meant to sound like that. My XMC-2 has become insufferable in the last three weeks after being merely tolerable before that. Changing inputs or sources regularly produces weird speaker balance volumes, usually with all the life sucked out of the centre speaker, that I can only resolve with a manual power off. Playing a DTS soundtrack where Neural kicks in is my current nightmare as it takes a few minutes for me to get the XMC-2 back on track. |
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Post by thezone on Nov 3, 2022 2:26:50 GMT -5
Maybe the couple in the photo just enjoy owning a system that works properly and as intended to deliver audio to whatever ceiling or other speakers they have, however non-purist that may be. A system that simply works to switch and distribute audio can create more pleasure and less frustration than a system like mine where fiddling with cycling inputs or surround modes is needed, all the rear-panel switch reboots I have to do, plus the constant doubt about whether the surround sound processor is working properly or whether the audio is meant to sound like that. My XMC-2 has become insufferable in the last three weeks after being merely tolerable before that. Changing inputs or sources regularly produces weird speaker balance volumes, usually with all the life sucked out of the centre speaker, that I can only resolve with a manual power off. Playing a DTS soundtrack where Neural kicks in is my current nightmare as it takes a few minutes for me to get the XMC-2 back on track. I agree the XMC-2 has its quirks and I do curse at it almost everyday, but I find that due to ATV4K not supporting any proprietary audio formats from local files it feeds everything to the XMC-2 as decoded PCM and I have zero issues with surround formats. And all the streaming apps atmos work fine. |
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Post by dvcdude on Nov 3, 2022 5:14:15 GMT -5
I was going along fine lately until I switched to an Apple TV4K. I now have HDMI switching issues that are so bad it is hard to stream anything. Netflix is the worst, but most days I have to do a hard restart every time I switch to the Apple TV. I changed cable to a FIBR certified fiber cable and that did not help at all. Anyone have any experience with this? Do I need to change a setting in the Apple box?
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 3, 2022 9:59:20 GMT -5
I agree the XMC-2 has its quirks and I do curse at it almost everyday, but I find that due to ATV4K not supporting any proprietary audio formats from local files it feeds everything to the XMC-2 as decoded PCM and I have zero issues with surround formats. And all the streaming apps atmos work fine. Decoded PCM may be the only delivery that makes any sense. Add a module in the Processors that works with actual speaker location. Then, let the user decide on which magic surround format he want's to use. This may be too much for the industry to do - serve the consumer from origination to final output. |
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Nov 3, 2022 10:27:47 GMT -5
I was going along fine lately until I switched to an Apple TV4K. I now have HDMI switching issues that are so bad it is hard to stream anything. Netflix is the worst, but most days I have to do a hard restart every time I switch to the Apple TV. I changed cable to a FIBR certified fiber cable and that did not help at all. Anyone have any experience with this? Do I need to change a setting in the Apple box? If you haven’t already, make sure you have the two settings under “Match Content”, turned “OFF”, especially if “Match Dynamic Range” is “ON”. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 3, 2022 11:10:22 GMT -5
There's a very basic question of philosophy here... For example, the goal of Dolby Atmos is: "to give the content producer the flexibility to realize their creative vision and to then deliver the result of that creative vision as accurately as possible". (My quote.... but it pretty well describes their philosophy.) Note that it's all about giving the content creator the ability to do all sorts of cool stuff... And then make sure that the customer will get to see their product exactly as it was intended to be seen... Note that nowhere in there is there anything about "enabling the customer to decide how THEY want that content to appear or sound". They simply assume that the customer "wants to see and hear that movie exactly as the producers intended it to be seen and heard". All of the flexibility is intended to enable them to make the coolest content as easily and effectively as possible.And the content delivery part is intended to get their product to you as accurately as possible.(Which is pretty much the opposite of giving you the opportunity to adjust it to suit your preferences.)Ditto for the new Imax Enhanced thing... Part of the deal (as advertised) is that it will lock out your color controls on your TV and FORCE your TV to play the video in "accurate calibrated color mode". (Again, so that you see exactly what they intended you to see.)Please note that I am NOT arguing that this is "the way it should be"... I'm personally inclined to go with their judgment... and I would probably just leave the system in calibrated mode... but I still like the option of having some user adjustments. But it is pretty clear that the last thing they want to do is to give you the raw tracks so you can decide how you want to process them. (Also, to be fair, PCM audio tracks use up a lot of bandwidth, and part of what the surround CODECs do is to minimize that by optimizing things significantly.) I agree the XMC-2 has its quirks and I do curse at it almost everyday, but I find that due to ATV4K not supporting any proprietary audio formats from local files it feeds everything to the XMC-2 as decoded PCM and I have zero issues with surround formats. And all the streaming apps atmos work fine. Decoded PCM may be the only delivery that makes any sense. Add a module in the Processors that works with actual speaker location. Then, let the user decide on which magic surround format he want's to use. This may be too much for the industry to do - serve the consumer from origination to final output. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 3, 2022 11:34:32 GMT -5
I agree... and that's why we offer both options. However... There are two distinctly different ways of looking at energy usages, energy prices, energy restrictions, and time delays... and not everyone agrees on them. One way is: "people should be required to economize - whether they like it or not". The other way is: "if prices are high, the market will self regulate, and each person can decide for themselves what they want to spend their money on". Twenty years ago everyone I know had a porch light, which burned about 60 watts, and which most folks left on 24/7. Then, when CFL bulbs, and then LED bulbs, came along, many switched over to save money. (An equivalent LED bulb burns about 7 watts.) But, to be fair, appliances like refrigerators, stoves, and washing machines use the VAST majority of the power I pay for. And I'm pretty sure that, during the hot part of the summer, my central air-conditioning unit tops them all. Each of us obviously has their own sense of priorities. In "lowest power standby" the XMC-2 consumes very little power (little enough to comply with EU standards). In "video remains on" it consumes around 35 watts. But, in return for the cost of that extra wattage, you save just under two minutes of your time each time you turn it on. (And, yes, some people I speak with consider that to be a long time to wait.) To add a bit of perspective to that question.... 1. I read a study about people pushing the button to summon an elevator... and how long they wait without a response before pushing the button again. A similar study was made on how long people will wait for the "Don't Walk" sign on a street corner to change before pressing the button again. In both studies many people pressed the button repeatedly if they failed to receive a response WITHIN ONE SECOND. The "moral" of those studies is that "some people really hate waiting"... and many of them will cheerfully pay a few extra dollars to avoid it. 2. Another interesting FYI... A few months from now new energy regulations will take effect in some or all of the EU. Unless something changes, when that happens, people in the EU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PURCHASE AN 8K TV. (None of the models currently available will meet the new maximum "consumption per square inches of screen" requirements.) Apparently EU customers will no longer have the right to decide.. because that choice will be made for them. With energy prices skyrocketing in Europe, sustainability (and wallet) has become top of mind. Noticing a substantial difference in energy levels between a week vacation where i had turned the power to the stereo fully off and week where i left it in the usual standby i took a closer look. Suspect were the 13 hypex ucd amps. Putting on an inrush current limiter avoided the fuse tripping and allowed me to put it all behind fibaro plug to easily turn it on/off in my absence. It also allowed me to measure…. The culprit is my xmc-2, hungrily taking 33 watt, 0.8 kWh a day. Dusting off the manual, turns out it is in ‘video on standby’ mode. I switched it off… i can wait a few extra seconds for it to turn on (my tv takes longer). In doing so I saved 10% off my electricity bill!!! A very easy and quick save! You might want to check your settings…. And perhaps for Emotiva to put a nice sustainability message out to all their customers: check, and turn it off unless you really use it. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 3, 2022 11:58:58 GMT -5
I've read one reviewer who thinks that only vinyl sounds really good... And there are a few who are still convinced that all of the really good gear uses tubes... (And at least one who thinks that anything can be modified to sound better by adding a tube... we love you Lampi...) The bottom line here is that Amir is one of MANY reviewers... And, with all the reviewers out there, we really cannot expend much effort, or lose much sleep, in an attempt to please one of them. Especially when he... err... doesn't necessarily agree with the bulk of all those other reviewers. And, to be quite blunt, Amir doesn't seem to like ANY AVR or pre/pro, so I do wonder how many people actually take his advice on that particular subject. (From what I can tell he seems to think you should buy a $129 DAC on eBay instead.) I also want to add a bit of perspective here about specifications and numbers.... and how they apply to audibility. There is a lot of disagreement about exactly where the limits of audibility actually lie... but most folks agree that they do in fact exist. Most people can hear the difference between 0.5% THD and 5% THD. And quite a few people can hear the difference between 0.05% THD and 0.5% THD. But I don't honestly believe that any human being can hear the difference between 0.002% THD and 0.006% THD. And, at some point, you have to simply say "the difference is insignificant so it doesn't matter". And this is especially true when there are literally dozens of other factors to consider - many of which DO make a REAL difference. (I'm all for "go for the best specs - ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL"... but only if all else is really equal.) As someone else already commented... if you really want to get depressed then find some THD specs on SPEAKERS. You probably really shouldn't even consider looking at a detailed analysis of your tap water either (or the stuff that comes out of your filter). (No... really... only kidding... you do NOT want to do that...  ) Hmmm, what's funny is that I own an XMC-2 and use it every day, and I do not recall hearing any distortion as such? It sounds crystal clear to my human ears. The thing is, that the values mostly cannot be heard - but measured. Some people believe in measurements, other trust their ears.
Both can be correct. the RMC-1 had the same bad measuring when Amir tested it - after a FW Update - the values where better.
Same hardware - only the FW was changed - what do these measurement then say about the hardware? I had some other brands here and none sounded as good as the RMC-1 - maybe in the upper price range that would change, but not sure about - not in mood to spend 8 or more grand for something new.
my POV: Amir is for me a bit like an apostle with his disciples - if he says, he cannot recommend this product - lots of people listen. And that is bad for any company.
it only takes 1 bad test, and your product will shown around as a bad product.
you can read the story here, including the second test he did.
and retest on page 46
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Post by thxultra on Nov 3, 2022 12:06:27 GMT -5
Thought I might check in. You know, see if v3.0 slipped into existence without my knowledge. Alas. I'm thinking January maybe? About the time the Marantz AV 10 comes out. Decisions, decisions.... Marantz really raised prices with the AV 10. $3k more then the 8805. Ouch... Plus they charge you extra for the Dirac license. At that price point Dirac really should be included. Only issue I have had with my XMC-2 is the metallic sound that happens from time to time. A full power cycle seems to fix it and not sure what causes it. Hoping they fix it with new firmware. If I was looking at that Marantz I would get the Anthem AVM90 and save the extra $1.5k |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 3, 2022 12:19:30 GMT -5
Here's my explanation...  None of the graphs or printouts you attached shows a high level of distortion. In fact a THD of 0.006% is very low... The noise spectrum, with the highest spike just above -90dB, also looks impressively good.... And it's pretty impressive how, after the first three spikes, the low level grass in the noise spectrum is really way down... (I can't say anything much about SINAD since that isn't an industry-standard spec than anybody else measures or publishes.) And, sure, there are really simple two-channel devices, with far fewer features and capabilities, that can deliver even lower numbers... But, to be honest, I don't see much to say there either. A buddy of mine used to ride a bicycle... It cost much less than my car, was much more environmentally friendly, and cost a lot less to operate... But it wasn't much for carrying passengers or cargo... And it wasn't much fun at all going uphill... And, incidentally, that rise in the graph at the low end, which is still below -100 dB, is spectral noise... so not exactly distortion. (And you might want to work out what a noise level 0f -100 dB works out to in THD+N.... it's low... each 20 dB adds a zero after the decimal point.) Emotiva, I just saw (late I know) a second review of XMC-2 on ASR with almost the identical issues as the first. Can you explain the high distortions in those measurements? Is this something you also have? Does RMC-1 measure any differently? Could this be hardware issues for later batches? Or is this software? I saw the old review for RMC-1 which didn’t have the raised distortions in the lowend also a lot of less spikes higher. This is Reference Stereo just to exclude bass management from the issue.. All modes have the same looking measurements.  |
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Post by thxultra on Nov 3, 2022 12:26:29 GMT -5
Here's my explanation... None of the graphs or printouts you attached shows a high level of distortion. In fact a THD of 0.006% is very low... The noise spectrum, with the highest spike just above -90dB, also looks impressively good.... And it's pretty impressive how, after the first three spikes, the low level grass in the noise spectrum is really way down... (I can't say anything much about SINAD since that isn't an industry-standard spec than anybody else measures or publishes.) And, sure, there are really simple two-channel devices, with far fewer features and capabilities, that can deliver even lower numbers... But, to be honest, I don't see much to say there either. A buddy of mine used to ride a bicycle... It cost much less than my car, was much more environmentally friendly, and cost a lot less to operate... But it wasn't much for carrying passengers or cargo... And it wasn't much fun at all going uphill... And, incidentally, that rise in the graph at the low end, which is still below -100 dB, is spectral noise... so not exactly distortion. (And you might want to work out what a noise level 0f -100 dB works out to in THD+N.... it's low... each 20 dB adds a zero after the decimal point.) Emotiva, I just saw (late I know) a second review of XMC-2 on ASR with almost the identical issues as the first. Can you explain the high distortions in those measurements? Is this something you also have? Does RMC-1 measure any differently? Could this be hardware issues for later batches? Or is this software? I saw the old review for RMC-1 which didn’t have the raised distortions in the lowend also a lot of less spikes higher. This is Reference Stereo just to exclude bass management from the issue.. All modes have the same looking measurements. On this topic though in Reference Stereo shouldn't the XMC-2 and RMC-1 test the same? The RMC-1 does much better in Amir's test (at least the retest) then the XMC-2 does. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 3, 2022 12:58:03 GMT -5
I was going along fine lately until I switched to an Apple TV4K. I now have HDMI switching issues that are so bad it is hard to stream anything. Netflix is the worst, but most days I have to do a hard restart every time I switch to the Apple TV. I changed cable to a FIBR certified fiber cable and that did not help at all. Anyone have any experience with this? Do I need to change a setting in the Apple box? You might want to try a CEC eliminator with the ATV. It eliminates pin 13 and can cure a lot of HDMI problems with certain streamers with the AppleTV being one of them. I use one with the gen1 ATV4K and with the Nvidia Shield 4K. Some people use it on every HDMI source connection they have. www.amazon.com/dp/B07BFL8TM8?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details |
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Post by PaulBe on Nov 3, 2022 14:34:18 GMT -5
There's a very basic question of philosophy here... For example, the goal of Dolby Atmos is: "to give the content producer the flexibility to realize their creative vision and to then deliver the result of that creative vision as accurately as possible". (My quote.... but it pretty well describes their philosophy.) Note that it's all about giving the content creator the ability to do all sorts of cool stuff... And then make sure that the customer will get to see their product exactly as it was intended to be seen... Note that nowhere in there is there anything about "enabling the customer to decide how THEY want that content to appear or sound". They simply assume that the customer "wants to see and hear that movie exactly as the producers intended it to be seen and heard". All of the flexibility is intended to enable them to make the coolest content as easily and effectively as possible.And the content delivery part is intended to get their product to you as accurately as possible.(Which is pretty much the opposite of giving you the opportunity to adjust it to suit your preferences.)Ditto for the new Imax Enhanced thing... Part of the deal (as advertised) is that it will lock out your color controls on your TV and FORCE your TV to play the video in "accurate calibrated color mode". (Again, so that you see exactly what they intended you to see.)Please note that I am NOT arguing that this is "the way it should be"... I'm personally inclined to go with their judgment... and I would probably just leave the system in calibrated mode... but I still like the option of having some user adjustments. But it is pretty clear that the last thing they want to do is to give you the raw tracks so you can decide how you want to process them. (Also, to be fair, PCM audio tracks use up a lot of bandwidth, and part of what the surround CODECs do is to minimize that by optimizing things significantly.) Decoded PCM may be the only delivery that makes any sense. Add a module in the Processors that works with actual speaker location. Then, let the user decide on which magic surround format he want's to use. This may be too much for the industry to do - serve the consumer from origination to final output. I’m all for reproducing what the content creators intend – all their cool stuff. We are on the same page. How are the content creators going to do that when they can’t agree on a layout format? I see you didn’t address processing to adjust for physical speaker location. Dolby and EMO WAS doing that for a while for Dolby enhanced speakers. Layout standards have changed while content creation doesn’t follow home layout recommendations. What way will content creators calibrate and LOCK IN sound, with different layout formats, with multi-channel audio? It’s easy to lock in calibration with video on one monitor. Rereading what I said, I'll expand a bit – send the stream, adjust for physical speaker location differences compared to recommendations - (Trinnov can do that) – and for differences in content creation speaker locations, decode in the preferred magic surround format. Yes, even decode in the way the consumer wants. But, we are never going to hear what content creators intend if we can’t simulate the creation environment. Repeat - We are never going to hear what content creators intend if we can’t simulate the creation environment; no philosophy in that statement. Heck, FORCE me to use the calibration that content creators LOCK IN. Or, allow me to change the preferred ‘calibration’ so I can see and hear the magic in their ‘calibration’ vs what I pick. Consumers, even here, have been crying to play Dolby content with DTX decoding. Didn’t Dolby backtrack on their requirements to not do it? Isn’t that supposed to part of EMO's next FW upgrade? I never cared about cross decoding. I'm personally inclined to go with content creators’ judgment too. My point is, settle on a way to make it work. I want to see and hear various content, exactly as the producers intended it to be seen and heard, on one fixed system. When the whole industry gets on the same page, and eschews its schizophrenic machinations, let me know. PCM can be done in MLP. Both Dolby TrueHD and DTX-HD do lossless packing and minimize bandwidth. (Meridian is too busy hyping MQA). Bandwidth hand wringing these days is a dead horse. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 3, 2022 14:53:26 GMT -5
In general, yes, we would expect them to measure very similarly in Reference Stereo mode. (And, according to the results we got when we ran the measurements, they do.) The thing you need to keep in mind is that we're talking about really sensitive measurements of really tiny values. Let's assume that your test input is a pretty typical 1.0 V . That 0.003% THD is equal to 0.00003 V of distortion . Inside the unit such tiny amounts of distortion could be affected by the distance between two circuit boards or the way a wire is routed... And, when measuring such tiny amounts, even small differences in test protocol, like where you rest the test lead, can affect the results as well... (And, to be quite blunt, it's really impressive that the distortion is so infinitesimally small that, even with modern test gear, it's so difficult to measure accurately, or even to detect at all.) Here's my explanation... None of the graphs or printouts you attached shows a high level of distortion. In fact a THD of 0.006% is very low... The noise spectrum, with the highest spike just above -90dB, also looks impressively good.... And it's pretty impressive how, after the first three spikes, the low level grass in the noise spectrum is really way down... (I can't say anything much about SINAD since that isn't an industry-standard spec than anybody else measures or publishes.) And, sure, there are really simple two-channel devices, with far fewer features and capabilities, that can deliver even lower numbers... But, to be honest, I don't see much to say there either. A buddy of mine used to ride a bicycle... It cost much less than my car, was much more environmentally friendly, and cost a lot less to operate... But it wasn't much for carrying passengers or cargo... And it wasn't much fun at all going uphill... And, incidentally, that rise in the graph at the low end, which is still below -100 dB, is spectral noise... so not exactly distortion. (And you might want to work out what a noise level 0f -100 dB works out to in THD+N.... it's low... each 20 dB adds a zero after the decimal point.) On this topic though in Reference Stereo shouldn't the XMC-2 and RMC-1 test the same? The RMC-1 does much better in Amir's test (at least the retest) then the XMC-2 does. |
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