geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
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Post by geebo on Sept 11, 2020 11:55:05 GMT -5
My measurement traces in Dirac all show about the same level. The subs are not down like you show. But I'm not using Center configured as LFE. I'm not either. I use center sub as mono. They are all level on the calibration screen with my sub amp at half gain knob. No issues there at all. It's like it is artificially playing higher spl on the rest of the channels to equal that of an LFE signal? I thought your sub was measuring/showing a lower spl in Dirac. Mine are showing equal before and after measuring.
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Post by marcl on Sept 11, 2020 11:55:47 GMT -5
What we should expect if we measure all channels with REW after calibration, is first that the Small speakers measure flat through the crossover to the subs. If you were to turn off one of the Small speaker amps and set the crossover to 200Hz and measure that Small speaker, you would see the output of the subs when they play Bass Management. That output should be the same level as all the other speakers and extend to the upper limit of your subs. Now if you measure REW output 4, the LFE output, only the subs play and they should be +10db above the level of the other speakers ... above the level that the subs play for Bass Management too. The LFE will play to just over 100Hz and then roll off 12db/octave. If you're not seeing this, then there's a problem with the levels. It really looks to me like the sub level during your measurements is way too low and that's causing Dirac to drop all the levels, but then somehow the sub doesn't end up where it should be. it is too low. I think what I am suggesting is the Dirac is expecting that channel to play as LFE which would be 10 db higher. But, it isn't playing as LFE because the center sub is playing as mono there by making it 10db less. If you have time, set your center sub for mono instead of LFE , level all speakers in the volume calibration screen, and then run one set of measurements. Tell me if your center sub isn't now 10 db too low. I don't think there's any possible way Dirac knows the difference whether the Center Sub is configured LFE or Mono in the processor, during measurements or when setting levels. Whether the processor puts out a sub signal +10db has to do with where the input to the processor comes from. If the input comes from a .1 channel it gets the +10db. If the input to a sub comes from Bass Management it plays flat.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 11, 2020 11:57:58 GMT -5
I'm not either. I use center sub as mono. They are all level on the calibration screen with my sub amp at half gain knob. No issues there at all. It's like it is artificially playing higher spl on the rest of the channels to equal that of an LFE signal? I thought your sub was measuring/showing a lower spl in Dirac. Mine are showing equal before and after measuring. On the vol calibration screen, they are all level and also "sound level". This is with my sub gain at %50. When allowing Dirac to take measurements, and viewing those measurements after each listening position, the sub output is about 10 db lower than everything else on the graph. Look at the graphic a handful of posts back. I provided a screenshot.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 11, 2020 12:03:02 GMT -5
it is too low. I think what I am suggesting is the Dirac is expecting that channel to play as LFE which would be 10 db higher. But, it isn't playing as LFE because the center sub is playing as mono there by making it 10db less. If you have time, set your center sub for mono instead of LFE , level all speakers in the volume calibration screen, and then run one set of measurements. Tell me if your center sub isn't now 10 db too low. I don't think there's any possible way Dirac knows the difference whether the Center Sub is configured LFE or Mono in the processor, during measurements or when setting levels.Β Whether the processor puts out a sub signal +10db has to do with where the input to the processor comes from.Β If the input comes from a .1 channel it gets the +10db.Β If the input to a sub comes from Bass Management it plays flat.Β Β your statement seems logical, but my results show something weird. My assumption is that it simply treats all channels as full range. Why am I getting, as ttocs stated, a higher spl playing on all non sub outputs while measurements occur? If I go thru a proper setup, when measuring... My speakers play so loud I have to plug my ears. The sub plays at the same level it did on the volume calibration screen. This has been the case the entire time I've used Dirac. This is one of the reasons I chased my tail with my subs a while back because they were measuring so low. It didn't occur to me that Dirac was causing this.
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geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
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Post by geebo on Sept 11, 2020 12:10:22 GMT -5
I thought your sub was measuring/showing a lower spl in Dirac. Mine are showing equal before and after measuring. On the vol calibration screen, they are all level and also "sound level". This is with my sub gain at %50. When allowing Dirac to take measurements, and viewing those measurements after each listening position, the sub output is about 10 db lower than everything else on the graph. Look at the graphic a handful of posts back. I provided a screenshot. Yes, I saw the graph. I do not get any such behavior. All speakers and subs are at pretty much the same average level as shown by Dirac.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 11, 2020 12:24:36 GMT -5
megash0n try this please. I just now played the Volume Calibration bloopy sweeps on my subs and using a handheld SPL meter measured 94dB at the point of clipping (volume calibration slider scale turns red), which is exactly what I get when I measure using REW. So that's the max I can get at the MLP in my room. Wear ear-sealing headphones!!! I'm curious as to what you get from yours.
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Post by JKCashin on Sept 11, 2020 15:46:17 GMT -5
I've been corresponding with steelman1991 about a possible phase/polarity issue after Dirac calibration. It appears as a null at the center channel crossover point. I have seen problems like this in my system when Dirac got confused by reflections with a particular speaker placement and it reversed the polarity of one of my speakers. Dirac attempts to get all the speakers phase-aligned and it will flip polarity if necessary. But if it makes a mistake and you end up with one speaker opposite polarity of the subwoofer then there will probably be a null at the crossover. If you do a set of measurements in REW you can check to see that the polarity of all the speakers is the same by looking at the Overlays-Impulse Response. Expand the time scale to about -0.005s to +0.005s and look to see that all pulses start very near 0.0 and go positive first. There will probably be some ringing after that but Dirac does its best to minimize ringing. Here's an example of a proper positive pulse of one speaker along with the positive (albeit much longer) pulse of the subwoofer. If they were 180 degrees out of phase one of them would go negative at 0.0. THANK YOU! Obvious now that it's been explained to me, but I have been struggling to figure out a way to check phase.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 11, 2020 15:56:47 GMT -5
geebo, center sub mono or LFE? ttocs, thank you for checking. I'll try to test this when I get home from the grocery store. I'm playing Mr Mom today. I'm not sure I entirely know what you mean, but I assume you are asking me what spl my subs are playing at (MLP) as the volume calibration approaches red.
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Post by idea53 on Sept 11, 2020 15:57:06 GMT -5
I have now completed two calibration sessions for different listening formations with Dirac. Both times I had this strange behavior with setting up the levels on my 3 subs (7.3.4 setup). Left and center sub outputs sine sweeps when setting levels but right sub outputs pink noise, as the rest of the 11 speakers. When calibrating all outputs are sine sweeps so it is only when setting up levels that it is behaving like this. But I suspect that the right sub might be treated as a full range speaker instead of a sub. The RMC-1 is set up to all sub channels in mono and enhanced bass (I first had it set up to left and right sub in dual mono and enhanced bass but Dirac the behavior was the same). Is this an Emotiva (the Ednib reporting false loudspeaker data to Dirac) or Dirac issue? Another strange behavior is during calibration - when the highlighted speaker on the computer screen gets out of sync with the output sound. This since Dirac repeats the 1st speaker at the end of the calibration sequence but the one programming the speaker highligt only counted the number of speakers to calibrate and split the highlight length between these speakers (there is no real synchronisation between sound output and which speaker to "higlight"). This is not a problem just annoying. Are you sure you're getting output from the right sub with left/right subs set to Mono? From the XMC-2 manual: Note: If you plan to connect two subs to the Left Sub and Right Sub outputs, then you must configure the Left/Right Subs outputs as Dual Mono. If you plan to connect only a single sub to those outputs, then you MUST connect it to the Left Sub output, and you must configure the Left/Right Subs as Mono. When Left/Right Subs is set to Mono ONLY the Left Sub output is active. That said, there is a bug that causes Dirac to think there's a right sub when the left sub is set to Mono. Are you getting sine sweeps from the right sub during calibration? Does it show up in Filter Design as a separate measurement from left sub? Everything at least seems to work OK except that when doing volyme setting the right sub outputs pink noise but the other two subs outputs sine sweeps (chirps). No difference when setting left/right subs to dual mono or just mono. Fronts and center is set to large but the rest of the speakers is set to small (with different LF-cut offs). Calibration shows all speakers OK as expected and filter design works OK. (except that Dirac is really fuzzy about levels - to high and you get clipping but just slightly lower and you get S/N-problems. A pain you have to get back and forth with changing volyme calibration for several points in a complete set of measurement - I wonder if this affects the filter calculations since speakers are measured at different levels for different response positions)
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geebo
Emo VIPs
"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,211
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Post by geebo on Sept 11, 2020 16:02:58 GMT -5
geebo, center sub mono or LFE? ttocs, thank you for checking. I'll try to test this when I get home from the grocery store. I'm playing Mr Mom today. I'm not sure I entirely know what you mean, but I assume you are asking me what spl my subs are playing at (MLP) as the volume calibration approaches red. Left and right subs Dual Mono.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 11, 2020 17:02:41 GMT -5
ttocs , thank you for checking. I'll try to test this when I get home from the grocery store. I'm playing Mr Mom today. I'm not sure I entirely know what you mean, but I assume you are asking me what spl my subs are playing at (MLP) as the volume calibration approaches red. Set the Sub slider all the way up at 0.00dB, set the Mic to 100%, start with the Master Volume almost all the way down. Then play the sweep for the sub and slide the Master Volume up as high as you can go until the red shows up for clipping. This is the max sub output. This is the level for which I'm interested in knowing the SPL. I set the handheld meter to Max so it records the peak SPL. For my subs it doesn't matter if their gain control is set to 50%, or 75%, they always max out at 94.6dB clipping point as originally discovered when using REW and confirmed with Dirac.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 11, 2020 17:18:14 GMT -5
ttocs , thank you for checking. I'll try to test this when I get home from the grocery store. I'm playing Mr Mom today. I'm not sure I entirely know what you mean, but I assume you are asking me what spl my subs are playing at (MLP) as the volume calibration approaches red. Set the Sub slider all the way up at 0.00dB, set the Mic to 100%, start with the Master Volume almost all the way down. Then play the sweep for the sub and slide the Master Volume up as high as you can go until the red shows up for clipping. This is the max sub output. This is the level for which I'm interested in knowing the SPL. I set the handheld meter to Max so it records the peak SPL. For my subs it doesn't matter if their gain control is set to 50%, or 75%, they always max out at 94.6dB clipping point as originally discovered when using REW and confirmed with Dirac. Gotcha. I leave mine at the top and adjust the gain knob for normal measurements, but I will do this to report back what spl I hit before I either clip the amp or the Dirac screen
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Post by ttocs on Sept 11, 2020 23:46:53 GMT -5
Are you sure you're getting output from the right sub with left/right subs set to Mono? From the XMC-2 manual: Note: If you plan to connect two subs to the Left Sub and Right Sub outputs, then you must configure the Left/Right Subs outputs as Dual Mono. If you plan to connect only a single sub to those outputs, then you MUST connect it to the Left Sub output, and you must configure the Left/Right Subs as Mono. When Left/Right Subs is set to Mono ONLY the Left Sub output is active. That said, there is a bug that causes Dirac to think there's a right sub when the left sub is set to Mono. Are you getting sine sweeps from the right sub during calibration? Does it show up in Filter Design as a separate measurement from left sub? Everything at least seems to work OK except that when doing volyme setting the right sub outputs pink noise but the other two subs outputs sine sweeps (chirps). No difference when setting left/right subs to dual mono or just mono. Fronts and center is set to large but the rest of the speakers is set to small (with different LF-cut offs). I just now changed my settings to: Center Sub:: Mono Left/Right Subs:: Dual MonoCenter:: Large My Fronts are always set to Large I can confirm that sweeps play for all 3 subwoofer outputs. No pink noise. I have previously confirmed that pink noise will play on the Right Sub when the Left/Right Subs is set to Mono. edit: I enabled Enhanced Bass just now to make see if it had any effect, but I got the same result of sweeps on all 3 sub outputs, no pink noise.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 11, 2020 23:55:13 GMT -5
Yea mine is just solid. No activity. Ya know, it just occurred to me to check on something. Are you using VPN?
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Post by audiophill on Sept 12, 2020 7:02:55 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean if I'm using VPN but. At this point I called teck support and they are sending me a new SD card to try.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 8:10:53 GMT -5
Everything at least seems to work OK except that when doing volyme setting the right sub outputs pink noise but the other two subs outputs sine sweeps (chirps). No difference when setting left/right subs to dual mono or just mono. Fronts and center is set to large but the rest of the speakers is set to small (with different LF-cut offs).Β I just now changed my settings to: Center Sub:: Mono Left/Right Subs:: Dual MonoCenter:: Large My Fronts are always set to Large I can confirm that sweeps play for all 3 subwoofer outputs. No pink noise. I have previously confirmed that pink noise will play on the Right Sub when the Left/Right Subs is set to Mono. edit: I enabled Enhanced Bass just now to make see if it had any effect, but I got the same result of sweeps on all 3 sub outputs, no pink noise. Is it because of this?? If you use mono instead of dual mono, you cannot have a right sub. Therefore, it is playing as the right sub by name but it's actually the front right wide channel.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 8:14:07 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean if I'm using VPN but. At this point I called teck support and they are sending me a new SD card to try. I was going to suggest this morning for you to burn a new image if you had an extra SD card.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2020 8:49:39 GMT -5
I just now changed my settings to: Center Sub:: Mono Left/Right Subs:: Dual MonoCenter:: Large My Fronts are always set to Large I can confirm that sweeps play for all 3 subwoofer outputs. No pink noise. I have previously confirmed that pink noise will play on the Right Sub when the Left/Right Subs is set to Mono. edit: I enabled Enhanced Bass just now to make see if it had any effect, but I got the same result of sweeps on all 3 sub outputs, no pink noise. Is it because of this?? If you use mono instead of dual mono, you cannot have a right sub. Therefore, it is playing as the right sub by name but it's actually the front right wide channel. Yes, that's correct. But he's also getting the pink noise on the Right Sub when it's setup for Dual Mono. I was only testing to confirm how my setup operates one way or the other. So I am perplexed as to why the pink noise is playing with a Dual Mono setup. Something else has got to be instigating this.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 9:04:36 GMT -5
Is it because of this?? If you use mono instead of dual mono, you cannot have a right sub. Therefore, it is playing as the right sub by name but it's actually the front right wide channel. Yes, that's correct. But he's also getting the pink noise on the Right Sub when it's setup for Dual Mono. I was only testing to confirm how my setup operates one way or the other. So I am perplexed as to why the pink noise is playing with a Dual Mono setup. Something else has got to be instigating this. I gotcha. I missed that part. Lots of random issues. I'm hoping to do the spl thing after I get my coffee.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2020 9:52:04 GMT -5
I'm hoping to do the spl thing after I get my coffee.
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