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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 10:39:26 GMT -5
I'm hoping to do the spl thing after I get my coffee. So, with the mic set at %100, my center sub hits roughly 88db at the MLP. For reference, my Right Channel hits 80 doing the same test. If I lower the mic down, it goes much louder before it starts hitting red. Adjusting the mic, I'm over 100db without clipping the sub amp.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 11:18:15 GMT -5
So, with the mic set at %100, my center sub hits roughly 88db at the MLP. For reference, my Right Channel hits 80 doing the same test. If I lower the mic down, it goes much louder before it starts hitting red. Adjusting the mic, I'm over 100db without clipping the sub amp. Though this was written for the Minidsp DDRC-88BM the instructions will probably be lot of help. The instructions are still relevant to Dirac 3 use. www.dropbox.com/s/iw8tsgv6nnf97gs/Dirac%20Live%201.0%20Calibration%20for%20the%2088A.pdf?dl=1Note the instructions w/ regard to gain settings.
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 12, 2020 11:28:31 GMT -5
I tried running Dirac and keep getting a message saying that the signal to noise ratio is too low and it can't properly do the measurements. I followed the instructions exactly, but keep getting that same message. So I tried the method TTOCS suggested but the tones were so loud that Dirac gave me a clipping error message and terminated the process. Question - I am using a single sub which, per the XMC-2 manual, is plugged into the left sub output and configured as mono. When I run Dirac, it shows a left and right sub. Of course there is no signal/tone played from the right sub since there isn't any, and I am wondering if this might be why I keep getting the error message? Dirac is trying to hear the right sub and there isn't one? Alas ... this is a known bug and it is the cause of the error you're seeing. The best solution if you have one sub is plug it into the Center Sub output and set that to Mono. If someone has two subs they should use Left and Right subs set to Dual Mono (not the Center and Left). Just an update.. I moved the sub to the center sub output (it had been on the left) and reran Dirac, following the instructions in the manual. Worked perfectly. So it was the lack of the right sub that was throwing Dirac off and causing the error message. I just wanted to say that I didn't have to modify any of the instructions regarding setting the levels, etc., I followed them exactly and got good results.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2020 13:03:17 GMT -5
So, with the mic set at %100, my center sub hits roughly 88db at the MLP. For reference, my Right Channel hits 80 doing the same test. If I lower the mic down, it goes much louder before it starts hitting red. Adjusting the mic, I'm over 100db without clipping the sub amp. Though this was written for the Minidsp-88BM the instructions will probably be lot of help. The instructions are still relevant to Dirac 3 use. www.dropbox.com/s/iw8tsgv6nnf97gs/Dirac%20Live%201.0%20Calibration%20for%20the%2088A.pdf?dl=1Note the instructions w/ regard to gain settings. I spec'd 100% for the mic and sub for a reason. All the settings in the Vol Cal setup are relative. I wanted to limit the variables as much as possible. The variables also include the mic used and the mic cal used, as well as the SPL meter used, but it gets things close enough. I know my SPL meter is within 0.1dB to my calibrator tool's 94dB calibrated output and within 0.3dB at the 114dB calibrated output. megash0n your setup measures -6dB to mine at the point Dirac says clipping is occurring. Further, your subs end up -10dB to the speakers where mine subs end up slightly higher than my speakers. The question is, what is causing yours to be so low? I use a MacBook Pro and know that when I view the mic in the computer System Preferences the mic input setting mirrors how it is set in Dirac. When it's 90% in Dirac, then it's also 90% in the System Preferences. If I recall correctly, you use a PC. So I wonder if there's another setting that somehow overrides the mic and acts like a double mic adjustment?
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 13:09:18 GMT -5
So, with the mic set at %100, my center sub hits roughly 88db at the MLP. For reference, my Right Channel hits 80 doing the same test. If I lower the mic down, it goes much louder before it starts hitting red. Adjusting the mic, I'm over 100db without clipping the sub amp. Though this was written for the Minidsp DDRC-88BM the instructions will probably be lot of help. The instructions are still relevant to Dirac 3 use.Β Β www.dropbox.com/s/iw8tsgv6nnf97gs/Dirac%20Live%201.0%20Calibration%20for%20the%2088A.pdf?dl=1Note the instructions w/ regard to gain settings.Β This is basically what I do following the other sticky guide. One thing that is interesting is that it discusses how it will or will not add an additional 10db for subs depending on your setup. This is not happening for me. Regardless, my point is that, when you go to the measurements section, all speakers, besides the center sub, play at least 10 db louder than they were set on the volume calibration screen. ttocs has confirmed this as well. I've opened a ticket with Dirac to understand if this is a bug or on purpose because it doesn't make sense. Now, I feel there is something to setting the mic properly instead of just going with 100 . I think the sweet spot for me is around 95.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 13:15:22 GMT -5
I spec'd 100% for the mic and sub for a reason. All the settings in the Vol Cal setup are relative. I wanted to limit the variables as much as possible. The variables also include the mic used and the mic cal used, as well as the SPL meter used, but it gets things close enough. I know my SPL meter is within 0.1dB to my calibrator tool's 94dB calibrated output and within 0.3dB at the 114dB calibrated output.Β megash0n your setup measures -6dB Β to mine at the point Dirac says clipping is occurring. Further, your subs end up -10dB to the speakers where mine subs end up slightly higher than my speakers. The question is, what is causing yours to be so low? I use a MacBook Pro and know that when I view the mic in the computer System Preferences the mic input setting mirrors how it is set in Dirac. When it's 90% in Dirac, then it's also 90% in the System Preferences. If I recall correctly, you use a PC. So I wonder if there's another setting that somehow overrides the mic and acts like a double mic adjustment? the subs aren't actually lower though until the measurements start. Dirac is raising the output by at least 10 db on all speakers except for my sub
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 13:17:59 GMT -5
This is basically what I do following the other sticky guide. One thing that is interesting is that it discusses how it will or will not add an additional 10db for subs depending on your setup. This is not happening for me. Regardless, my point is that, when you go to the measurements section, all speakers, besides the center sub, play at least 10 db louder than they were set on the volume calibration screen. ttocs has confirmed this as well. I've opened a ticket with Dirac to understand if this is a bug or on purpose because it doesn't make sense. Now, I feel there is something to setting the mic properly instead of just going with 100 . I think the sweet spot for me is around 95. I'm not using Emotiva but an actual MiniDSP product. The gains are hardware adjustable internally by way of jumpers if way off to varying amplification inputs voltage demands or I suppose to compensate for mixing balanced and unbalanced inputs. Probably pertinent as all the information in the pdf may not be relevant to an Emotiva product
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 13:25:46 GMT -5
I spec'd 100% for the mic and sub for a reason. All the settings in the Vol Cal setup are relative. I wanted to limit the variables as much as possible. The variables also include the mic used and the mic cal used, as well as the SPL meter used, but it gets things close enough. I know my SPL meter is within 0.1dB to my calibrator tool's 94dB calibrated output and within 0.3dB at the 114dB calibrated output.Β megash0n your setup measures -6dB Β to mine at the point Dirac says clipping is occurring. Further, your subs end up -10dB to the speakers where mine subs end up slightly higher than my speakers. The question is, what is causing yours to be so low? I use a MacBook Pro and know that when I view the mic in the computer System Preferences the mic input setting mirrors how it is set in Dirac. When it's 90% in Dirac, then it's also 90% in the System Preferences. If I recall correctly, you use a PC. So I wonder if there's another setting that somehow overrides the mic and acts like a double mic adjustment? the subs aren't actually lower though until the measurements start. Dirac is raising the output by at least 10 db on all speakers except for my sub You're throwing me of by referring to minidsp. Are you using an Emotiva or actual Minidsp product? I ask because in the Minidsp product various gains and xovers can be implemented on input, matrix, or output tabs in the Minidsp software before launching Dirac. Depending on where such adjustments are made either does or does not affect Dirac. If that's the case Dirac might be disabling those config settings and enabling them after measuring or filter design? In other words if gains are bumped in hardware/software they're disabled during Dirac measurements and filter design but reenabled afterwards.... I'm guessing that depending on the hardware/software combo Dirac either accounts for or doesn't account for xovers, gains, or eq. That is, depending on how configs are implemented.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2020 14:04:50 GMT -5
This is basically what I do following the other sticky guide. One thing that is interesting is that it discusses how it will or will not add an additional 10db for subs depending on your setup. This is not happening for me. Regardless, my point is that, when you go to the measurements section, all speakers, besides the center sub, play at least 10 db louder than they were set on the volume calibration screen. ttocs has confirmed this as well. I've opened a ticket with Dirac to understand if this is a bug or on purpose because it doesn't make sense. Now, I feel there is something to setting the mic properly instead of just going with 100 . I think the sweet spot for me is around 95. I'm not using Emotiva but an actual MiniDSP product. The gains are adjustable internally by way of jumpers if way off to varying amplification inputs voltage demands or I suppose to compensate for mixing balanced and unbalanced inputs. Probably pertinent as all the information in the pdf may not be relevant to an Emotiva product Dirac disregards everything set in the Emotiva processor except for which speakers are enabled. Once using a Dirac filter, the only adjustment outside of Dirac that is available in the processor is Levels which can be used in addition if wanted. So it's Dirac that is handling all this high or low level as can be seen in the image megash0n posted earlier. Something is out of whack in Dirac, and so far I can't reproduce his issue. I'm curious, so I try.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 14:05:27 GMT -5
the subs aren't actually lower though until the measurements start. Dirac is raising the output by at least 10 db on all speakers except for my sub You're throwing me of by referring to minidsp. Are you using an Emotiva or actual Minidsp product? I ask because in the Minidsp product various gains and xovers can be implemented on input, matrix, or output tabs in the Minidsp software before launching Dirac. Depending on where such adjustments are made either does or does not affect Dirac. If that's the case Dirac might be disabling those config settings and enabling them after measuring or filter design? In other words if gains are bumped in hardware/software they're disabled during Dirac measurements and filter design but reenabled afterwards.... I'm guessing that depending on the hardware/software combo Dirac either accounts for or doesn't account for xovers, gains, or eq. That is, depending on how configs are implemented. emotiva rmc. I do have a minidsp 2x4 balanced that my subs sit behind, but Dirac doesn't about that. I do understand what you are saying. What I am talking about is moving between two screens in the Dirac software. Spl levels are different. i get there are a ton of other things we could discuss, but all levels at the same on the volume calibration screen. And, they are the same with an spl meter. Dirac plays 9 speakers higher than the 10th when measuring.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 14:12:05 GMT -5
I'm not using Emotiva but an actual MiniDSP product. The gains are adjustable internally by way of jumpers if way off to varying amplification inputs voltage demands or I suppose to compensate for mixing balanced and unbalanced inputs. Probably pertinent as all the information in the pdf may not be relevant to an Emotiva product Dirac disregards everything set in the Emotiva processor except for which speakers are enabled. Once using a Dirac filter, the only adjustment outside of Dirac that is available in the processor is Levels which can be used in addition if wanted. So it's Dirac that is handling all this high or low level as can be seen in the image megash0n posted earlier. Something is out of whack in Dirac, and so far I can't reproduce his issue. I'm curious, so I try. I thought you measured 16 db higher spl during measurements than the volume calibration screen? I think what you are saying through is your sub also plays 16 db higher where mine is exactly what the volume calibration screen says. That PDF talked about how, if the Dirac software sees 5.1 if will play the subs 10db higher. I wonder if there is a bug, something up with the processor, or maybe it's my laptop. It seems possible that my laptop is the problem. When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level. But why on earth is it boosting the rest? And, even though it says 2.0, it still plays all channels. (5.1.4)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 14:38:44 GMT -5
Dirac disregards everything set in the Emotiva processor except for which speakers are enabled. Once using a Dirac filter, the only adjustment outside of Dirac that is available in the processor is Levels which can be used in addition if wanted. So it's Dirac that is handling all this high or low level as can be seen in the image megash0n posted earlier. Something is out of whack in Dirac, and so far I can't reproduce his issue. I'm curious, so I try. I thought you measured 16 db higher spl during measurements than the volume calibration screen? I think what you are saying through is your sub also plays 16 db higher where mine is exactly what the volume calibration screen says. That PDF talked about how, if the Dirac software sees 5.1 if will play the subs 10db higher. I wonder if there is a bug, something up with the processor, or maybe it's my laptop. It seems possible that my laptop is the problem. When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level. But why on earth is it boosting the rest? And, even though it says 2.0, it still plays all channels. (5.1.4) Isnβt that THX reference of 105/115 spl? A 10db difference? Dirac doesnβt account for DTS/THX or does it in a multi surround system? Interesting, learned something new! Important info when choosing a target curve for surround setup. www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi0gprZsOTrAhW2HDQIHZG9Ac0QFjALegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avsforum.com%2Fforum%2F91-audio-theory-setup-chat%2F2689289-arcam-avr550-dirac-live-10db-sub-boost.html&usg=AOvVaw3QtGqTpMFZCmJVHkFa1_Fu
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2020 17:00:04 GMT -5
Dirac disregards everything set in the Emotiva processor except for which speakers are enabled. Once using a Dirac filter, the only adjustment outside of Dirac that is available in the processor is Levels which can be used in addition if wanted. So it's Dirac that is handling all this high or low level as can be seen in the image megash0n posted earlier. Something is out of whack in Dirac, and so far I can't reproduce his issue. I'm curious, so I try. I thought you measured 16 db higher spl during measurements than the volume calibration screen? I think what you are saying through is your sub also plays 16 db higher where mine is exactly what the volume calibration screen says. That PDF talked about how, if the Dirac software sees 5.1 if will play the subs 10db higher. I wonder if there is a bug, something up with the processor, or maybe it's my laptop. It seems possible that my laptop is the problem. When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level. But why on earth is it boosting the rest? And, even though it says 2.0, it still plays all channels. (5.1.4) When I did the test to find the SPL difference between VolCal and Measurement screens, I ONLY concentrated on 1 speaker, the Center Speaker, because the speakers are all close enough to call them equal by ear. Waaaay too confusing otherwise. I'll test the Sub channels to see if they play the same way. Now, about your setup with the laptop, whaaaaaat? When you run Dirac, you "don't" use the network? I really don't understand this. My laptop is physically connected to the Microphone and nothing else. It is connected to the network via wifi. Please explain how Dirac/laptop/processor all work together.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2020 17:40:16 GMT -5
I thought you measured 16 db higher spl during measurements than the volume calibration screen? I think what you are saying through is your sub also plays 16 db higher where mine is exactly what the volume calibration screen says. That PDF talked about how, if the Dirac software sees 5.1 if will play the subs 10db higher. I wonder if there is a bug, something up with the processor, or maybe it's my laptop. It seems possible that my laptop is the problem. When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level. But why on earth is it boosting the rest? And, even though it says 2.0, it still plays all channels. (5.1.4) Mic set to 100%, sliders were at or near 0.0dB for 5.1 speaker setup, Center Sub set to Mono. In the Dirac VolCal screen all the speakers were at about 67dB SPL, the subwoofers played at 77dB to get the same green range as other speaker sliders. In the Dirac Measurement screen the sweeps played at 83dB for the speakers, and the subs played right at 86dB. So for those of you keeping track at home: +16dB higher when measurement sweeps play for speakers. +19dB higher when measurement sweeps play for subwoofers.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 17:48:16 GMT -5
I thought you measured 16 db higher spl during measurements than the volume calibration screen? I think what you are saying through is your sub also plays 16 db higher where mine is exactly what the volume calibration screen says. That PDF talked about how, if the Dirac software sees 5.1 if will play the subs 10db higher. I wonder if there is a bug, something up with the processor, or maybe it's my laptop. It seems possible that my laptop is the problem. When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level. But why on earth is it boosting the rest? And, even though it says 2.0, it still plays all channels. (5.1.4) When I did the test to find the SPL difference between VolCal and Measurement screens, I ONLY concentrated on 1 speaker, the Center Speaker, because the speakers are all close enough to call them equal by ear. Waaaay too confusing otherwise. I'll test the Sub channels to see if they play the same way. Now, about your setup with the laptop, whaaaaaat? When you run Dirac, you "don't" use the network? I really don't understand this. My laptop is physically connected to the Microphone and nothing else. It is connected to the network via wifi. Please explain how Dirac/laptop/processor all work together. seems the same. Laptop running Dirac. I have my Pi running in a closet. USB UMIK plugged into the laptop. Nothing at all strange or abnormal.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 12, 2020 17:49:58 GMT -5
I thought you measured 16 db higher spl during measurements than the volume calibration screen? I think what you are saying through is your sub also plays 16 db higher where mine is exactly what the volume calibration screen says. That PDF talked about how, if the Dirac software sees 5.1 if will play the subs 10db higher. I wonder if there is a bug, something up with the processor, or maybe it's my laptop. It seems possible that my laptop is the problem. When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level. But why on earth is it boosting the rest? And, even though it says 2.0, it still plays all channels. (5.1.4) Mic set to 100%, sliders were at or near 0.0dB for 5.1 speaker setup, Center Sub set to Mono. In the Dirac VolCal screen all the speakers were at about 67dB SPL, the subwoofers played at 77dB to get the same green range as other speaker sliders. In the Dirac Measurement screen the sweeps played at 83dB for the speakers, and the subs played right at 86dB. So for those of you keeping track at home: +16dB higher when measurement sweeps play for speakers. +19dB higher when measurement sweeps play for subwoofers. In comparison, mine play at least 10 db higher and the sub plays the same level as what I see on the volume calibration screen
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2020 17:57:03 GMT -5
Mic set to 100%, sliders were at or near 0.0dB for 5.1 speaker setup, Center Sub set to Mono. In the Dirac VolCal screen all the speakers were at about 67dB SPL, the subwoofers played at 77dB to get the same green range as other speaker sliders. In the Dirac Measurement screen the sweeps played at 83dB for the speakers, and the subs played right at 86dB. So for those of you keeping track at home: +16dB higher when measurement sweeps play for speakers. +19dB higher when measurement sweeps play for subwoofers. In comparison, mine play at least 10 db higher and the sub plays the same level as what I see on the volume calibration screen It's this part where you mention being connected via HDMI: "When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level."
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Post by megash0n on Sept 13, 2020 11:42:56 GMT -5
In comparison, mine play at least 10 db higher and the sub plays the same level as what I see on the volume calibration screen It's this part where you mention being connected via HDMI: "When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level." I'm not entirely sure whether this was a question or a comment. I'm a little confused.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 13, 2020 11:48:04 GMT -5
It's this part where you mention being connected via HDMI: "When Dirac engages, my connection to the G3P is via HDMI and it syncs up as pcm 2.0. I'm betting that Dirac sees this, thinks it is 2 channel and doesn't boost the sub level." I'm not entirely sure whether this way a question or a comment. I'm a little confused. I'm the confused party. How and why is your laptop connected via HDMI while Dirac is engaged? My laptop uses wifi to communicate over the network.
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Post by megash0n on Sept 13, 2020 11:50:59 GMT -5
I've been doing a lot of reading on Dirac trying to determine what's going on with this subwoofer issue. Something else I read that I did not know is that Dirac doesn't actually boost any frequencies at all. If you have a dip, and keep a specific curve, then Dirac actually attenuates everything down to this dip as to flatten the curve if you will. This would explain why, when I "follow the dips" pretty closely, I have an overall higher spl for a given volume number. Secondly, as a test, I purposely brought down the entire curve by 3 or 4 db to accomplish something similar. I'm going to reset all my curves today and leave them alone with the exception of following a few bigger dips by 3 or 4 db and also leaving any natural voicing of the speakers in play as to not make them sound too dead. For example, if I have an 8 db dip at a frequency, I'm going to follow that down around 4 db allowing Dirac to attenuate everything else by 4 db. This leaves me flat with still having a 4 db dip instead of 8db dip. If any of this makes sense. In saying all of this, I am really confused where all the distortion came from prior to me remeasuring. It must have been a bug since Dirac supposedly isn't boosting. I also now better understand how people are able to use the Harmon curves without clipping or distortion. I assumed they were boosting.
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