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Post by 405x5 on Dec 21, 2021 21:11:00 GMT -5
Power meters? REALLY? The standard VU meters aren't accurate. They take away $$$ that could be spent on sound quality instead. I'd rather have a silver color option than to have meters. Black is just so blah on amplifiers... The silver color would also serve to identify the Emotiva Generation 4 amplifiers from their predecessors. Want meters? Get that app that displays meters on your TV screen.
Who cares if they are not accurate? The bouncing bliss of seeing the needles move is all most people need! As for me..."meh, one more think that could break". "Whatev's..." Mark Yeah Mann!! I’d be a hypocrite not to admit they were tons of fun 🤩….Not only the meters but the light meters (Ala Carver and others perhaps)…..follow the bouncing balls!) As I’ve said previously, I’ve been living with a meter that runs backwards LOL, by design. On the Sunfire amplifier, if I were reaching the threshold of what this beast can deliver the meter would start to drop. The things lit, however I’ve never seen it move. It reads a scale from 0 to 500 Joules and goes right over to 500 when powered up and sits there. For sure, anyone who loves meters would be bored to death by this. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 21, 2021 21:21:04 GMT -5
… Want meters? Get that app that displays meters on your TV screen… …or an oscilloscope function with lissajous and sweep displays.   |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 21, 2021 21:34:13 GMT -5
… Want meters? Get that app that displays meters on your TV screen… …or an oscilloscope function with lissajous and sweep displays. Or just run a tape loop for the introduction to: “ THE OUTER LIMITS “  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 22, 2021 8:14:54 GMT -5
Whether we get power meters, silver finish, etc. or not with Emotiva’s Gen. 4 amps, what I hope we DO get is Class D topology! The future IS Class D , and it’s time for Emotiva to make the transition. The late, great Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers were some of the best-sounding that Emotiva’s ever sold. Whether Emotiva works with B&O again or builds their own modules, Big Dan knows what sounds good. A full line of Emotiva Generation 4 Class D amps would get me off my wallet!
Boomzilla
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 22, 2021 9:04:21 GMT -5
Whether we get power meters, silver finish, etc. or not with Emotiva’s Gen. 4 amps, what I hope we DO get is Class D topology! The future IS Class D , and it’s time for Emotiva to make the transition. The late, great Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers were some of the best-sounding that Emotiva’s ever sold. Whether Emotiva works with B&O again or builds their own modules, Big Dan knows what sounds good. A full line of Emotiva Generation 4 Class D amps would get me off my wallet! Boomzilla With all due respect ✊……I part company with you sir… I’ll keep my A/B full range Class D low register thank you very much!! (Merry Christmas 🎄) |
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Post by brutiarti on Dec 22, 2021 9:25:08 GMT -5
My experience with Class D has been disappointing. I bought and sold several brands based on different modules, like Wyred4sound, Newclear, Emotiva PA-1, VTV and PS Audio. None of them sounded excellent, just OK. The only amplifier that I kept and use it everyday is the Audio Alchemy.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 22, 2021 10:02:26 GMT -5
Whether we get power meters, silver finish, etc. or not with Emotiva’s Gen. 4 amps, what I hope we DO get is Class D topology! The future IS Class D , and it’s time for Emotiva to make the transition. The late, great Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers were some of the best-sounding that Emotiva’s ever sold. Whether Emotiva works with B&O again or builds their own modules, Big Dan knows what sounds good. A full line of Emotiva Generation 4 Class D amps would get me off my wallet! Boomzilla I agree, I’ve been waiting for ‘someone’ to release a multichannel Class D amp(s) that checks my requirement boxes. My next purchase will be to replace the amps in my HT system with 14 channels of Class D. Then I’ll consider swapping out my VTL tube amps with a pair of Class D monoblocks (or a stereo pair for vertical bi-amp). (but one of my check boxes is ‘black’ 😁) |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 22, 2021 10:36:07 GMT -5
It's cooommmiiinnngggggg !!! 
Whether we get power meters, silver finish, etc. or not with Emotiva’s Gen. 4 amps, what I hope we DO get is Class D topology! The future IS Class D , and it’s time for Emotiva to make the transition. The late, great Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers were some of the best-sounding that Emotiva’s ever sold. Whether Emotiva works with B&O again or builds their own modules, Big Dan knows what sounds good. A full line of Emotiva Generation 4 Class D amps would get me off my wallet! Boomzilla |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 22, 2021 11:02:24 GMT -5
Actually, my preference (rather than a 14-channel behemoth) would be for very small, single-channel monoblocks that could be used in any desired combination. I’d want them to be: 2-ohm capable (ever more speaker makers are selling “nominal 4-ohm” speakers with 2.5 ohm minimum impedances) Available in multiple power outputs (50 - 100 - 200 watts sounds about right). This would allow biamplification of speakers, but if the different wattage amps had different gains, then they’d also need gain pots for each amp. Made with robust enough power supplies that the frequency response didn’t change with speaker impedance (a common failing of many current Class D amps) Now my wishes and a dollar will buy a sale cup of coffee (after the geezer discount), but I’m cheered to read KeithL’s admission that new options are coming. THAT’s a Merry Christmas gift for sure! Boomzilla |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 22, 2021 11:27:10 GMT -5
Actually, my preference (rather than a 14-channel behemoth) would be for very small, single-channel monoblocks that could be used in any desired combination. I’d want them to be:… I don’t expect anyone to built 14 channels in a single amp, more likely two 7-channel, or even an 8 and a 5 (I really only need 13). My problem with the mono block concept for HT is too many power cords, I currently own (6) PA-1s and very much dislike all the AC running around. But for my 2C system I’m right there with you. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 22, 2021 16:12:36 GMT -5
Hi AudioHTIT - I can understand that. Starke Sound makes a 4-channel amp that I reviewed & thought was the most versatile I'd seen. You could combine any two of the channels for twice the power, or use them in a mix-and-match fashion. For example, if you wanted to biamplify your speakers, leave all 4-channels discreet & use two for the R/L woofer & two for the R/L tweeter. Want HT use? Bridge one pair of channels for the center speaker & run the other two channels independently for the R/L fronts. Need LOTS of power for stereo? Bridge a pair of channels for each speaker. The amp was stable down to 2-ohm loads, even with the channels bridged! Not only that, but I couldn't tell any audible difference between having the channels bridged or not. Now I do hope that Emotiva can match the versatility & quality of THAT amp! Boomzilla |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 22, 2021 16:26:22 GMT -5
My experience with Class D has been disappointing. I bought and sold several brands based on different modules, like Wyred4sound, Newclear, Emotiva PA-1, VTV and PS Audio. None of them sounded excellent, just OK. The only amplifier that I kept and use it everyday is the Audio Alchemy. The two Class-D amps that sold me on the technology were (in the order that I heard them): The Emotiva PA-1 - What I liked about the amp was that it sounded really "quick." With my speakers (I don't remember what I had at that time - maybe Tekton Pendragons?) the PA-1 amps sounded like a prima ballerina compared to a linebacker trying to dance ballet. They REALLY made the speakers sit up & sing. To make sure it wasn't just synergy, I took the amps to garbulky who compared them to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 amps. He decided that the PA-1s were different, but just as good with his speakers as his big amps. The other amp that sold moi on Class-D was the Starke Sound AD4.320. That amp was as quick as the PA-1s but had MUSCLE. I think I tried it with my B&W speakers (some serious current hogs) and it sounded great. To make sure, again, that it wasn't just a fortuitous match, I took the amp to my audio amigo's and hooked it up to his 2.2 ohm Thiel CS 5i speakers. Both in discreet channel and bridged modes, the amp drove those speakers LOUDLY without even getting hot, and sounded good doing it. So Class-D can compete with conventional topology. Remember that up until now, amp makers have been working with "early generation" Class-D. It takes a while for circuit designers to learn what's important and what isn't when building an amp. Things that worked with previous topologies may not do the same things in a Class-D circuit. But I'd posit the idea that by now, manufacturers have had time to "get their feet wet" with Class-D, to learn how to tweak it for the best sound. I have GREAT expectations for new Class-D designs, and look forward to hearing them. Boomzilla |
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Post by brutiarti on Dec 22, 2021 18:37:53 GMT -5
My experience with Class D has been disappointing. I bought and sold several brands based on different modules, like Wyred4sound, Newclear, Emotiva PA-1, VTV and PS Audio. None of them sounded excellent, just OK. The only amplifier that I kept and use it everyday is the Audio Alchemy. The two Class-D amps that sold me on the technology were (in the order that I heard them): The Emotiva PA-1 - What I liked about the amp was that it sounded really "quick." With my speakers (I don't remember what I had at that time - maybe Tekton Pendragons?) the PA-1 amps sounded like a prima ballerina compared to a linebacker trying to dance ballet. They REALLY made the speakers sit up & sing. To make sure it wasn't just synergy, I took the amps to garbulky who compared them to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 amps. He decided that the PA-1s were different, but just as good with his speakers as his big amps. The other amp that sold moi on Class-D was the Starke Sound AD4.320. That amp was as quick as the PA-1s but had MUSCLE. I think I tried it with my B&W speakers (some serious current hogs) and it sounded great. To make sure, again, that it wasn't just a fortuitous match, I took the amp to my audio amigo's and hooked it up to his 2.2 ohm Thiel CS 5i speakers. Both in discreet channel and bridged modes, the amp drove those speakers LOUDLY without even getting hot, and sounded good doing it. So Class-D can compete with conventional topology. Remember that up until now, amp makers have been working with "early generation" Class-D. It takes a while for circuit designers to learn what's important and what isn't when building an amp. Things that worked with previous topologies may not do the same things in a Class-D circuit. But I'd posit the idea that by now, manufacturers have had time to "get their feet wet" with Class-D, to learn how to tweak it for the best sound. I have GREAT expectations for new Class-D designs, and look forward to hearing them. Boomzilla Quite a stir did that Stark amp on Asr. |
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 22, 2021 23:08:27 GMT -5
The two Class-D amps that sold me on the technology were (in the order that I heard them): The Emotiva PA-1 - What I liked about the amp was that it sounded really "quick." With my speakers (I don't remember what I had at that time - maybe Tekton Pendragons?) the PA-1 amps sounded like a prima ballerina compared to a linebacker trying to dance ballet. They REALLY made the speakers sit up & sing. To make sure it wasn't just synergy, I took the amps to garbulky who compared them to his XPA-1, Gen. 2 amps. He decided that the PA-1s were different, but just as good with his speakers as his big amps. The other amp that sold moi on Class-D was the Starke Sound AD4.320. That amp was as quick as the PA-1s but had MUSCLE. I think I tried it with my B&W speakers (some serious current hogs) and it sounded great. To make sure, again, that it wasn't just a fortuitous match, I took the amp to my audio amigo's and hooked it up to his 2.2 ohm Thiel CS 5i speakers. Both in discreet channel and bridged modes, the amp drove those speakers LOUDLY without even getting hot, and sounded good doing it. So Class-D can compete with conventional topology. Remember that up until now, amp makers have been working with "early generation" Class-D. It takes a while for circuit designers to learn what's important and what isn't when building an amp. Things that worked with previous topologies may not do the same things in a Class-D circuit. But I'd posit the idea that by now, manufacturers have had time to "get their feet wet" with Class-D, to learn how to tweak it for the best sound. I have GREAT expectations for new Class-D designs, and look forward to hearing them. Boomzilla Quite a stir did that Stark amp on Asr. I see a trend with these class D amps. Just put the modules inside a shiny aluminum chassis and charge a lot of money for them. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 23, 2021 11:54:01 GMT -5
I don't disagree... but there is actually a good justification for doing so.
To put it in simple terms...
It's somewhat difficult to design a stable, reliable, good sounding Class-D amplifier.
This is especially true for designers who are familiar with designing traditional Class A/B designs but may not be well versed in the newer technology. (Partly because, since they operate at extremely high frequencies, with Class-D designs, things like circuit layout are incredibly critical.)
There are now several companies who have extensive expertise in designing Class-D modules that both perform well and sound good. Therefore, if your designers lack extensive experience in designing Class-D amplifiers, it's simply better and easier to purchase modules from someone who DOES have that expertise.
However, when you design and manufacture a complete amp "from scratch", that design and manufacture adds a lot of the overall value. (The complete amplifier is worth a lot more than the pile of parts because both the design and the manufacture have added value.) And, in business terms, that added value is something you get to charge for... and add a significant markup for "overhead and profit".
But, when you use modules, most of that value is already embodied in the module. (The manufacturer of the module designed the amplifier, bought the parts, put them together, tested them, and was paid for all of their efforts.) This offers less opportunity for whoever incorporates the modules into a case to "add value".
Someone building amplifiers in their garage may be able to afford to buy a $200 module, put it in a $50 case, and sell the result to you for $300 . (Although, even then, they're only getting $50 for their labor, and for all of the logistics associated with advertising, selling, and shipping, a product.)
However, for "a real company", with a manufacturing facility, and employees, that $50 markup is NOT going to pay their employees salaries and keep the lights on. Now, of course, if they sell a significant volume of product, they're going to be getting those modules for a good wholesale discount.
But, if you then buy that amplifier from someplace like Best Buy, they're getting 30% to 40% of what you pay "right off the top". (A lot of which goes to pay their employees salaries and the cost of operating their website and their stores.)
And, if you think they're charging too much, then you should consider the alternative... You will find that "merely sticking the module in a nice box" requires a lot more effort and planning than you might at first imagine. (Unless, of course, you actually enjoy doing that sort of thing.)
Quite a stir did that Stark amp on Asr. I see a trend with these class D amps. Just put the modules inside a shiny aluminum chassis and charge a lot of money for them. |
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Post by LuisV on Dec 23, 2021 15:34:15 GMT -5
Actually, my preference (rather than a 14-channel behemoth) would be for very small, single-channel monoblocks that could be used in any desired combination. I’d want them to be: 2-ohm capable (ever more speaker makers are selling “nominal 4-ohm” speakers with 2.5 ohm minimum impedances) Available in multiple power outputs (50 - 100 - 200 watts sounds about right). This would allow biamplification of speakers, but if the different wattage amps had different gains, then they’d also need gain pots for each amp. Made with robust enough power supplies that the frequency response didn’t change with speaker impedance (a common failing of many current Class D amps) Now my wishes and a dollar will buy a sale cup of coffee (after the geezer discount), but I’m cheered to read KeithL ’s admission that new options are coming. THAT’s a Merry Christmas gift for sure! Boomzilla I agree with you Boom, smaller monoblock or 2 channel designs would be great; especially for surround, Atmos type channels. I loved my XPA-2 and XPA-5 as they treated my ears with wonderful sound for years; however, they were huge. Something along the size of the XTZ A2-300 would be nice. If a similar or new version on the PA-1 was brought back, I would consider a few for HT use. www.xtzsound.eu/edgea2300?lng=en#!/EDGE-A2-300/p/405983841 I prefer class A or A/B for the main 3 channels, but for surround duty... I would embrace class-D. |
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Post by leonski on Dec 25, 2021 0:57:56 GMT -5
leonski , I need your expertise. Just received the little 3V meters. Did a quick hookup and they work quite nicely for permanent bias meters, I can punch a hole in the chassis and install a switch between each pair of tubes. But, here's where I'm lost due to no knowledge. I was "expecting" the meters to move as the power increased, but they don't - much. The bias is set for a little over 0.9V, and at high volume the peaks move the needle up to about 1V. So I hooked up my 25 year old Fluke 87 and put it into record 1ms and sure enough, the peaks were right at 1V, so only a little less than 0.1V movement, let's call it 10% movement. I thought what would happen is that the bias would move as a percentage of the total power output. So the real question is: What does this mean? I just read this and 2 or 3 posts DOWN AUDIO got it right. the bias is a fixed value....set by those little pots on the driver board..... MAYBE, that value drops as the amp reaches its limits, but I don't know. I'm getting a LITTLE better at reading tube schematics, so I am learning the different 'sections'. Bias power is one of 'em.....Heater power another (usually it's own transformer winding) And than there is what I keep on seeing called the B+.....a kick ass higher voltage, so Be Careful! One OTHER thing. Pass 'A' amps use a kind of dynamic bias.....which is what his meter measures. But it also is 'still' at normal listening levels than drops as the amp 'leaves' class 'A'...... |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 25, 2021 8:50:45 GMT -5
The bias voltage is dc, set to induce a steady state of current flow through a device. The musical signal is ac, injected into the grid, superimposed on the dc bias voltage to vary the current flow through the device. Coupling capacitors block dc, except the bias, from the grid.
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Dec 25, 2021 16:37:05 GMT -5
Everyone forget about the RPA-1?  |
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Post by Cogito on Dec 26, 2021 18:47:09 GMT -5
Whether we get power meters, silver finish, etc. or not with Emotiva’s Gen. 4 amps, what I hope we DO get is Class D topology! The future IS Class D , and it’s time for Emotiva to make the transition. The late, great Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers were some of the best-sounding that Emotiva’s ever sold. Whether Emotiva works with B&O again or builds their own modules, Big Dan knows what sounds good. A full line of Emotiva Generation 4 Class D amps would get me off my wallet! Boomzilla Nothing but big, heavy, cumbersome amps with giant toroidial transformers and heat sinks for me. If it doesn't hurt to move, it's not worth having... Oh, don't forget the full frontal, gorilla glass, LCD panel that displays "analog" output meters (With customizable colors) and be switched to display system temperatures, current draw and a spectrum analyzer to boot! |
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