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Post by pallpoul on Jun 20, 2020 15:09:44 GMT -5
Should one expect the sound of the current Emotiva speakers line to improve over time ?.
I recently installed, B1+'s, T-zero's, and T2+'s. All still under 20 hours of use so far. Please share your experience or thoughts.
Ty.
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Post by JKCashin on Jun 20, 2020 15:33:57 GMT -5
I found my B1+ sounded thin (AM radio like) but only for a minute or so... literally just a minute or so... then it loosened up. It improved marginally aftetr that but the best gains were in the first few minutes. They sound amazing now! Any improvement over the next few hours may just be in my head.
That said, I do have a second pair that has NEVER BEEN HOOKED UP, so next weekend I will pop them in and compare. I expect it will be thin for a moment and indistinguishable after that.
Of course, these are just my unscientific observations. Maybe I could take a REW reading too...
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 20, 2020 16:18:15 GMT -5
Being mechanical transducers, I think there’s more physics to justify speakers breaking in generally (as opposed to electronics). However, as modern materials get better it seems to me that one goal in speaker design would be to provide a more consistent sound over a longer period of time. So ignoring that you’re asking about a specific speaker, I’d say you should still expect some change, just not as much as we might have noticed in the past.
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Post by Topend on Jun 20, 2020 16:29:58 GMT -5
Interesting question. I have a pair of new T2+ speakers and I did not like the mid range at first. I went back and forward with my old speakers which sound great. I think the T2+ are getting better. I’ll compare them again today and report back.
Dave.
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Post by Topend on Jun 20, 2020 21:04:10 GMT -5
I have done some further listening while switching between my Krix and Emotiva speakers. My observations have not changed but I have grown to like the Emotiva T2+ speakers more.
I don’t think that having more hours on the T2+ speakers made too much difference. They may have improved in the mid range but it’s too hard to tell 5 days after I first listened to them.
Interestingly I asked my wife to listen to several different hi res tracks with her eyes closed while I switched speakers and her observation was similar to mine.
Dave.
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Post by sep297 on Feb 12, 2022 8:50:14 GMT -5
I have done some further listening while switching between my Krix and Emotiva speakers. My observations have not changed but I have grown to like the Emotiva T2+ speakers more. I don’t think that having more hours on the T2+ speakers made too much difference. They may have improved in the mid range but it’s too hard to tell 5 days after I first listened to them. Interestingly I asked my wife to listen to several different hi res tracks with her eyes closed while I switched speakers and her observation was similar to mine. Dave. Dave, Did you ever get to the bottom of the T2+ V Krix Neuphonix debate?. I am contemplating a pair of the Krix Neuphonix V2 for my main system and currently don't have a lot of other choices locally. I had not heard of them before, although all have heard about them seems reasonably good so far. Many Thanks In Advance Stuart |
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Rybo
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Post by Rybo on Feb 12, 2022 11:40:11 GMT -5
For me, I not only allow time for speakers to break in, but I also give myself some time to adjust to the new sound -- along with making tweaks such as placement (location, height, distance from wall/objects, toe-in) partial port block, do they sound better will grills on/off, spikes in (for towers), etc. If I still don't like the sound after maybe several days or a week, then I would consider that they aren't for me -- or at least not suitable in my specific configuration. During the trial phase of my T0+'s, they just didn't sound that great, but it turns out I didn't like how Spotify sounded through them. I switched to Tidal and it made the difference for me. Video / movies sound really good (if the source audio is decent). Other factors are the kind of music you listen to, the master recording quality, and generally just the kind of sound signature that appeals to you. All of that can impact whether you really like a particular speaker's sound. I know this is way more than you asked, but before you go through the process of returning or selling them it's good idea to give them the full "routine" (IMO).
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Feb 12, 2022 13:38:07 GMT -5
I'm not an engineer so I don't know the physics of speaker design and whether or not their sound can or does change over time. And the truth is, I don't think most people know either. Everyone thinks they know but it's probably more opinion than truth or scientific facts. I do believe that most of the change is us getting used to a different set of speakers. Again, might be some mechanical change but most of the change is in our brain and ears.
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Post by housetech on Feb 12, 2022 14:31:42 GMT -5
I'm not an engineer so I don't know the physics of speaker design and whether or not their sound can or does change over time. And the truth is, I don't think most people know either. Everyone thinks they know but it's probably more opinion than truth or scientific facts. I do believe that most of the change is us getting used to a different set of speakers. Again, might be some mechanical change but most of the change is in our brain and ears. My Monitor Audio spkrs definitely needed hours of burn-in when new. I replaced a C-CAM woofer in one and it sounded different than the other for a while. Now they are nearly 20 yrs old, they sing. I believe some spkrs need burn-in, but electronics, no. (except tubes) I have less than 50 hrs on T2+ and can't hear a difference. |
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Post by DavidR on Feb 12, 2022 18:41:49 GMT -5
My Monitor Audio spkrs definitely needed hours of burn-in when new. I replaced a C-CAM woofer in one and it sounded different than the other for a while. Now they are nearly 20 yrs old, they sing. I believe some spkrs need burn-in, but electronics, no. (except tubes) I have less than 50 hrs on T2+ and can't hear a difference. Paul McGuire of PS Audio disagrees and has valid reasons. I restore vintage speakers and I know capacitors, especially film caps, have a break-in period. Sonicaps take like 200 hours.
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Post by housetech on Feb 12, 2022 20:50:37 GMT -5
As Paul stated, I don't understand it (electronics) either. I was thinking the active devices don't need burn-in.
Speakers I understand need burn-in because they're a mechanical device and we ran new demo speakers (at the store) for days.
I watched Andrew Jones after Paul.
David, if you say xover film caps need burn-in, I won't disagree.
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Post by Topend on Feb 13, 2022 2:09:54 GMT -5
I have done some further listening while switching between my Krix and Emotiva speakers. My observations have not changed but I have grown to like the Emotiva T2+ speakers more. I don’t think that having more hours on the T2+ speakers made too much difference. They may have improved in the mid range but it’s too hard to tell 5 days after I first listened to them. Interestingly I asked my wife to listen to several different hi res tracks with her eyes closed while I switched speakers and her observation was similar to mine. Dave. Dave, Did you ever get to the bottom of the T2+ V Krix Neuphonix debate?. I am contemplating a pair of the Krix Neuphonix V2 for my main system and currently don't have a lot of other choices locally. I had not heard of them before, although all have heard about them seems reasonably good so far. Many Thanks In Advance Stuart Hi Stuart, The Neuphonix are more accurate and natural sounding in the mid range. They have deep bass but lack the punch of the T2+. Both speakers high frequency range sound very similar if not identical to my hears. Neuphonix = better at home theatre but still great for music. T2+ = better at music with a good punchy beat. It’s the speaker I prefer most without a subwoofer during music even if the Neuphonix sounds like it digs a little deeper. Cheers, Dave. |
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Post by donh50 on Feb 13, 2022 12:19:25 GMT -5
Speaker spiders and surrounds break in, typically in a few seconds, minutes at most. After that you are "breaking in" your ears and brain to the new sound. There are gobs of technical articles at places like the AES on this, and many speaker designers have posted. There is a wealth of actual theory and measurements but it is routinely rejected by the audiophile community. I let my AES membership lapse and have no plans to renew just to dredge up decades-old papers. Generally T-S parameters change over a few minutes, sometimes a little longer, but the actual response of the entire speaker system (driver plus crossover plus box) changes very slightly, usually a very modest (few Hz) extension in the bass.
I would not use Paul's PS Audio videos as a reference for engineering knowledge but many do. Tubes require a few seconds to a few minutes to warm up; SS devices usually warm up "instantly" in ns to ms. What can change is how the device bias (tube or SS) changes over temperature. A well-designed bias circuit is insensitive to PVT (process, voltage, temperature) variations. All are non-ideal to some extent, but a poorly-designed bias circuit can drift with temperature, so as a device warms up the bias can change. This may or may not change the sound you hear. I consider that a poor design; the stuff I have designed (well above audio frequencies) must work pretty much right as it turns on so the circuit handles that.
I have always been a bit bemused at how it is taken for granted that things like cars, cell phones, radios, radars, satellite links, and a bazillion other electronic devices "just work" when turned on but somehow audio equipment takes hours, days, months to "sound good".
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Post by ttocs on Feb 13, 2022 14:02:41 GMT -5
Speakers need time to break-in. How much depends on the material.
I had JBL L110 speakers for 32 years and went through break-in of the woofers several times, when new, and then with each re-cone about every ten years. Bass shy at first, but after about twenty hours would sound as before the woofer surround was worn out, with the exception being that none of the re-cones sounded like the original but they each sounded like each other.
The woofers in my current set of main speakers took over 50 hours to settle in. I kept a log of the progress. The stat panels took over 130 hours before the last shrill noise was gone, a long sustaining note in a particular Santana song that would shriek and was very piercing and anyone with hearing would've noticed. Would this shriek noise have shown up in a test? I doubt it. This is why it pays to play a lot of different music during break-in, you'll never know otherwise.
Tubes need time to burn off stuff. I've had some sets that needed almost no time, and others that needed more. All in all though, not much time at all, and maybe because the company I purchase tubes from runs them for 24 hours before they are tested for making matched sets.
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 13, 2022 20:19:24 GMT -5
Should one expect the sound of the current Emotiva speakers line to improve over time ?. I recently installed, B1+'s, T-zero's, and T2+'s. All still under 20 hours of use so far. Please share your experience or thoughts. Ty. I believe loudspeaker manufacturers would be in some serious trouble if they had to somehow, explain to their customers that they should expect their speakers to sound “different” after they’ve played them for a while (weeks, hours who knows). What if the customer liked them out of the box and then a few weeks later, they thought they sucked? My speakers had drivers that were made by the company (not outsourced as many others are). If the post manufacturing measurements weren’t where they were supposed to be, they were stripped of their magnets and sent to the dumpster. Yes. I would agree some woofers may benefit after a short time of use Tweeters and pulsating dome midrange drivers should be right on the mark day one. |
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Post by DavidR on Feb 14, 2022 11:29:45 GMT -5
I believe loudspeaker manufacturers would be in some serious trouble if they had to somehow, explain to their customers that they should expect their speakers to sound “different” after they’ve played them for a while (weeks, hours who knows). What if the customer liked them out of the box and then a few weeks later, they thought they sucked? My speakers had drivers that were made by the company (not outsourced as many others are). If the post manufacturing measurements weren’t where they were supposed to be, they were stripped of their magnets and sent to the dumpster. Yes. I would agree some woofers may benefit after a short time of use Tweeters and pulsating dome midrange drivers should be right on the mark day one. Do the speaker xovers have electrolytic capacitors? They tend to form quickly. Many film caps, especially cheaper ones, will/can exhibit glare and brightness that will dissipate over time. I won't get into why and what happens but Paul McGuire touched on what happens but not in detail.
If I'm using film caps in a speaker restoration I now will wire ALL the new caps in parallel, wire them on the positive side of my shop speakers and play them for a week. Pink noise is MUCH more efficient at breaking in caps.
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Post by housetech on Feb 14, 2022 11:40:06 GMT -5
Right from Monitor Audio's website- Q: Do I need to run in my subwoofer?
"Yes you do. The workings of a subwoofer drive unit is exactly the same as a conventional drive unit, just on a slightly larger scale. The electronics also require some time to bed in. The running in time for a sub woofer should be 60 - 80 hours."
"As a speaker is played, physical changes take place that make the speaker sound better. The upper-mids and highs start to sound warmer and smoother and the low end acquires a bit more punch."
“I always tell guys that the Celestions we sell sound great right out of the box. But because they are brand new, the suspensions are at their tightest and the tone is at its brightest. When they break in and loosen up a little, they have a longer cone travel and softer suspension which causes them to have a deeper and warmer tone.” — Dave Noss, Avatar Speakers
edit- When I bought my M.A.s, David Solomon, VP & designer told me to run-in the speakers, said to play pink noise when we're out of the house for a couple weeks.
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 14, 2022 12:08:11 GMT -5
I believe loudspeaker manufacturers would be in some serious trouble if they had to somehow, explain to their customers that they should expect their speakers to sound “different” after they’ve played them for a while (weeks, hours who knows). What if the customer liked them out of the box and then a few weeks later, they thought they sucked? My speakers had drivers that were made by the company (not outsourced as many others are). If the post manufacturing measurements weren’t where they were supposed to be, they were stripped of their magnets and sent to the dumpster. Yes. I would agree some woofers may benefit after a short time of use Tweeters and pulsating dome midrange drivers should be right on the mark day one. Do the speaker xovers have electrolytic capacitors? They tend to form quickly. Many film caps, especially cheaper ones, will/can exhibit glare and brightness that will dissipate over time. I won't get into why and what happens but Paul McGuire touched on what happens but not in detail.
If I'm using film caps in a speaker restoration I now will wire ALL the new caps in parallel, wire them on the positive side of my shop speakers and play them for a week. Pink noise is MUCH more efficient at breaking in caps.
David, My post is a response to the very first post from the OP in this thread….if you would like to read that. Talking about original BRAND NEW driver condition, with the assumption the crossover networks are NEW and not in question. |
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Post by DavidR on Feb 14, 2022 12:21:00 GMT -5
Do the speaker xovers have electrolytic capacitors? They tend to form quickly. Many film caps, especially cheaper ones, will/can exhibit glare and brightness that will dissipate over time. I won't get into why and what happens but Paul McGuire touched on what happens but not in detail.
If I'm using film caps in a speaker restoration I now will wire ALL the new caps in parallel, wire them on the positive side of my shop speakers and play them for a week. Pink noise is MUCH more efficient at breaking in caps.
David, My post is a response to the very first post from the OP in this thread….if you would like to read that. Talking about original BRAND NEW driver condition, with the assumption the crossover networks are NEW and not in question. Oh, never mind.  |
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Rybo
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Post by Rybo on Feb 14, 2022 13:45:15 GMT -5
David, My post is a response to the very first post from the OP in this thread….if you would like to read that. Talking about original BRAND NEW driver condition, with the assumption the crossover networks are NEW and not in question. Oh, never mind. 
My fault -- I didn't realize I was replying to an older thread. 
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