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Post by leonski on Jul 10, 2020 2:09:56 GMT -5
Nice looking might be a PLUS.....with WAF being perhaps, a consideration.
But more importantly? How do they SOUND?
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Post by viablex1 on Jul 10, 2020 8:19:46 GMT -5
Not sure I have been Listening to youtube demos but have not heard how they sound forums owner on other forums people do seem to really like the guy Duke who builds them. How do you like those magnepans those look interesting as well!!!
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Post by leonski on Jul 10, 2020 11:58:43 GMT -5
I can already tell you NEED to get out and hear some stuff.
Maggies are the 'UnBox' speaker. And have been so since the 1970s some time when Jim Winey came up with the idea and made it work.
Original Typmpani models are still sought after but consume huge amountss of real estate.
I bought 'em after an in-house demo in early / mid 1980s and immediately (next day) sold my RSL Studio Monitors which were Excelllent copies of JBL 4311 or L100 speakers. I have heard them all and so
could compare.
As for listening to a speaker on YouTube? You are hearing a speaker recorded by some unknown means than played BACK on your computer speakers! I don't see how that could possibly give
ANY idea of how something really 'sounded'.....
And written reviews? How do you know ANYTHING about the most important part of the review? Nope, not the object under test, but the guy DOING THE REVIEW? Does he listen for and appreciate what YOU do?
Duke might be the nicest guy in the world. Shirt off his back, and all. But what does HE value in a speaker? Than we can get into skillset and his real ability to make a bunch of 'em.....
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Post by viablex1 on Jul 10, 2020 12:21:58 GMT -5
Yes agreed I saw them come up on audiogon I was just trying to get some impressions which wont help its just nice to interact on the forums during this pandemic. Thanks for the reply on the Maggie's a friend if mine always mentions them as a great speaker maybe when it opens up I can try to hear some in person.
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Post by viablex1 on Jul 10, 2020 12:25:11 GMT -5
James Romeym I think builds them here is the philosophy
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Speaker Design Philosophy
A renown issue with cone and dome designs is that pattern size shrinks as frequency rises, and pattern size grows as frequency decreases. The pass band is the range where two drivers overlap. When two drivers in a pass band have different diameter (cone mid/dome tweeter), the size of the two patterns is continuously opposed. Such pattern distortion is contrary to nature, and humans have high sensitivity to it, perceived as a “box” or “shouty” effect. Panel speakers have other problems but not this one.
A well designed wave guide closely matches driver patterns in the pass band, and also has a more consistent pattern than any cone mid range and dome tweeter (hence the term “constant directivity” wave guide) .
All wave guides are horns but not all horns are wave guides. Some horns are prone to a “cupped hands” distortion. Lynne Olson is a prolific and well known DIY tube amp designer who also designed Ariel, one of the all time most popular DIY speakers. Lynne describes himself as having high sensitivity to cupped hands effect in horns, and yet he is one of AK's biggest fans, noting no such effect in AK speakers (see "Comments, Reviews.")
In some cases horns also have a reputation for causing listener fatigue. AK fans and owners state that AK's timbral presentation is opposed to typical horns, being pleasing, musical, natural, and transparent, inviting all day listening sessions extending into the night. One AK Zephrin 46 owner said it tended to minimize his tinnitus.
Duke tends to trade some of the wave guide's potential sensitivity in favor of smoothness, linearity and transparency. AK sensitivity specs are accurate, and more conservative than industry standards, falling about mid way between cone/dome standards and a typical horn. All models are well suited to tube and OTL amps, with benign phase angle and moderate impedance.
Some of the world's most costly and legendary speakers employ horns and wave guides. If you've not considered an affordable, ultra high performance wave guide loudspeaker, we welcome you to learn about them and consider becoming another happy AK loudspeaker owner.
whats-best-forumn
trumpet
Power Handling and Maximum Output
Typically, a cone/dome loudspeaker compresses peaks about 10 dB with input signals approaching the maximum power rating. Conversely, under the same conditions, AK typically has 1 dB of dynamic compression. The difference in presentation is welcome. Dynamic peaks are more lively and lifelike, more closely mimicing what we hear in live music. A cone/dome system playing similar average SPL might soften peaks by several dB.
Wave Guide Types
For the front/main wave guide, AK employs either Duke's proprietary round poplar wave guide made to his specs (Gina), or SEOS (super eliptical oblate spheroid) rectangular wave guide, the latter being 10.5, 13.5, or 15.5 inches wide. The wider the SEOS wave guide, the smoother and more linear is performance at the perimeter of its radiation pattern.
Gina's round horn yields 90 x 90 degree pattern, while SEOS (SAY-ahs) horns yield 90 vertical x 45 horizontal pattern.
An inherent performance advantage with Gina is super high tolerance between the CD's exit angle and the horn's entry angle, yielding audibly less diffraction.
Acoustics: Cracking the Early/Late Arrival Conundrum
Few if any other speaker designers match Duke's knowledge and experience Re. the ideal balance between early and late arriving signals. Among other authorities on this subject, Duke is a rabid student of four eminent PhD's: Earl Geddes, Floyd Toole, Robert E. Greene, and David Greisinger. These individuals do not always agree 100%, but together they likely have the most reliable and extensive knowledge base on this subject. I encourage readers to research the bio and work of these four individuals.
David Greisinger proposes that the less early arriving reflected energy the better. DG has posted music recordings with vs. without early arriving reflected energy, in which the listener can decide for themselves.
For purposes of this disucssion, “early” reflected energy is signal that arrives less than about 10 ms after early arriving signal. (Sound travels @ 1125 feet per second x 0.01 S = 11.25 feet path length difference.) This is a simplification that must suffice for our discussion.
For domestic listening, there is universal or almost universal agreement that a high ratio of late arriving reflected energy improves audio performance. In a typical concert venue, more than half the perceived energy is reflected and late arriving. The most obvious and renown postive effects are increased pleasure, density, immersion, and envelopment. Spatial qualities improve in every aspect.
Toole states that properly delayed reflected energy gives listeners a second look (in real time), which even improves pitch perception. Years ago, after I mentioned Toole's findings to an amateur audiophile, he replied, “My speakers do not distort pitch.” To date there is no test spec for loudspeaker pitch distortion, but our experience indicates Toole is correct, and a loudspeaker “pitch perception” test would be a good indicator/predictor of performance. IOW speakers do vary in the degree to which they accurately portray pitch on program material. Properly delayed and properly processed reflected energy increases pitch perception, which can make music that was boring sound interesting and pleasurable. Music with complex pitch relationships not properly perceived increases our mental gymnastics and tires us, causing us to label the music as "boring." Said another way: the less the ear/brain works to create a live music illusion, including pitch perception, the more we enjoy it and the longer we want to listen.
We hope to post binaural recordings in the future with the intent to demonstrate SG performance, including Toole's conclusions regarding pitch perception.
Our tests indicate that other benefits include greater perception of detail, nuance, wood tone, fingering styles, and as stated earlier, all parameters relating to spatial qualities. Proximity effect is minimized, meaning the sound detaches from and is not localized in the vicinity of either cabinet. Image height is raised in the sound field, as even the pickiest reviewer Jason Victor Serinus mentioned in his comments Re. $5500/pr AK Zephrin 46 (2015 THE Show, Stereophile; on Robert E. Greene's list of “Best New Speakers Under $15k/pr”). Another interesting benefit may seem anti-intuitive: listeners perceive less of the listening room and more of the music program acoustic. And there's no known down side.
Space Generator
We call it "Space Generator" because listeners perceive it as enlarging the dimensions of their sound room. It may seem anti-intuitive, but proper magnitude of late-arriving, wide-dispersion, properly filtered energy portrays more of the program acoustic and less of the listening room acoustic signature.
What is an ideal method to minimize early-arriving reflected energy combined with a high ratio of ideal late-arriving reflected energy? The goals seem mutually exclusive because they are. Duke has invented a method for audiophiles to have their cake and eat it too.
First, if you're looking for an active speaker, this is not the place. Duke and I both value the benfits of employing the world's best external audio amplifiers, not the type usually employed in active speakers. (A passive crossover can also improve performance by modifying the impedance curve.)
Duke's designs deliver a tightly focussed constant-directivity pattern for early arriving signal, with among the lowest magnitude of early reflected energy. We agree with Dr. David Griesinger, who states that the less is early arriving reflected energy, the better is performance. (Not to get too deep in the woods, but this is one little sliver of daylight between Toole's philosophy and Griesinger's: Toole specifies that some degree of early arriving reflected energy benefits performance.)
AK's Space Generator is a discrete speaker with separate input and crossover. Duke has modified SG response based on years of research and user feedback. SG has very high input impedance, 20 ohm to 50 ohm depending on the model and setting of its passive volume control. Most amplifiers can properly drive the front/main AK speaker and Space Generator in parallel (contact us for specific advice).
The SG has a passive wide range level controll, and 5 setting Treble Tilt control (see TT notes elsewhere herein). SG drivers comprise a compression driver with, depending on the model, either a coaxial cone or ultra-wide range horn.
How does the SG achieve or approximate the 10 ms delay target? The SG driver mounts to either a 22.5 degree or 45 degree baffle, firing the SG rearward and upward toward the ceiling. Even with the speaker moderately close to the front wall, SG energy is delayed about 10 ms relative to early-arriving signal.
We minimize SG's potential off-axis early-arriving energy with pattern control and by installing the driver in a rear-facing notch. "Release Holes" (AKA "Bubbles") on the inside vertical panel minimize early arriving reflected energy that would degrade performance.
If we compare sound patterns to light, think of the early arriving, constant-directivity signal as a focussed light beam, followed about 10 ms later (11.25 feet path length difference) by a flood lamp with its spectrum modified for certain desirable attributes known to maximize performance. The results are pleasing and addictive.
Crossovers
Prior to 2018 even on the two critical series capacitor banks for the compression driver, Duke used the smallest number of caps needed to achieve the required value. Since 2018 he switched to higher cost capacitors, with a large number of lower value caps to achieve the required value. The result is faster transient performance, with increased detail, transparency, larger dynamic envelope, and no down side. He also switched to higher cost coils.
Some models may have different plating material on each polarity for a pair of input binding posts, e.g. gold plated positive post + rhodium plated negative post, or one gold plated/the other nickel plated. This non-symmetry splits the difference between the best and least desirable acoustic traits of each plating material, with concomittant performance upgrade.
Cabinet Construction
Our CNC cabinet shop contributes to AK's high value. The shop charges less than the average rate for a high level of craftsmanship, which savings we pass along. The only down side is that lead times vary from 2 weeks up to 4 weeks, and occasionally (but rarely) longer.
Speaker cabinet construction is a fine art, with considerable learning curve for even accomplished cabinet craftsmen lacking such experience. Our CNC craftsman has built speaker cabinets since the mid-00s and has a fine grasp of the many related nuances. Multiple AK speakers assembled in the USA's driest climate in Utah, are trouble free even in the damp environs of Florida, Jakarta, and N. Carolina, among other places.
“Gold Ply” Panel Material, Pre-Veneered Both Sides
Except where noted, all panels comprise Gold Ply, AKA Gold Core or CLX, a unique panel material comprising birch + MDF, pre-veneered on both sides. MDF is strong, lacking grain, knots, and rings, resulting in clean, smooth rabbets to flush mount drivers. MDF also increases mass for stability and less cabinet rocking. Cross grain birch minimizes shrinkage and expansion, thus maximizing strength and consistency.
The two panel materials outperform either material alone. Noise is lowered, with commensurate increase in dynamic “pop,” and without any downside.
Both panel sides are pre-veneered under extreme pressure at the mill, further maximizing longevity and stability. The area around front drivers is double thick. Mass, window frame braces, and/or perimeter bracing is added as needed.
Paint and Veneer Finishes
Gold Ply comes in these 15 different veneers. Our CNC shop has a wide array of pleasing stains and finishes. Automotive finishes are available, which may increase cost.
African mahogany
Ash
Beech
Cedar
Cherry
Clear Alder
Hickory
Knotty alder
Knotty pine
Maple
Natural birch
Red oak
Vertical grain fir
Walnut
White oak
Knit Cloth Grille, Mid-Woofer Dress Ring
Knit Cloth Grilles w/Ball and Socket Fasteners: add $600/pr for all models except Gina, which includes standard Mid-Bass Dress Ring described below (no grille option for Gina, which would hide its proprietary poplar wave guide).
Alloy Satin Black Mid-Bass Dress Rings: standard on Gina, add $350/pr for 10 inch mid-bass models except Gina (standard, included); add $425/pr for 12” mid-bass models.
Dual Flared “Precision Ports”
All ported speakers employ Precision Ports with scientifically engineered flares on both ends to minimize turbulence.
Our first choice for port siting is directly behind the mid bass, to increase late- arriving mid range reverberant field energy. For models with ports behind the mid bass and and at other locations, when plugging ports to tune response, always plug ports behind the mid bass last.
Cherne Pipe Plugs
For bass tuning, all speakers with ports include a Cherne pipe plug to air tight seal each port. An air tight seal is superior to the typical practice of stuffing a sock in a port.
5 Position Treble Tilt Alters Curve and Gain
Compression drivers each have a “Treble Tilt” control. Each setting changes both curve and gain, for more effective control than one or the other. (Tannoy's $30k/pr Canterbury model has controls for mid-treble curve and gain.) A pair of rear panel non-polarized binding posts is labeled “Treble Tilt.” Users modify those posts as follows:
+2: included shorting jumper
+1: included non-inductive power resistor labeled “+1”
0/flat: included non-inductive power resistor labeled “0/flat”
-1: included non-inductive power resistor labeled “-1”
-2: posts open, nothing connected
In the rare case of a user preferring a half-step between the OEM whole steps, let us know the desired step location, e.g. +.5, -1.5, etc. We shall ship a pair of power resistors of the appropriate value, and labeled with your desired step number.
Footers, Gliders, and Spikes
Subs come with four 1” rubber feet. In 2018, for all floor standing speakers, we switched to four Peavey brand “glider” feet with additional rubber section for total height of .93 inch. For hard floors, each floor stander includes 5 (4 + 1 spare) self-adhesive felt gliders. Users fasten the felt gliders to the nickel glider base, and wait a few hours for the adhesive to cure.
Beyond maximizing ease of general placment, gliders allow the highest degree of siting accuracy. You'll love this quality of the gliders, and never want to go back.
Floor standing speakers also include a front/center mounted threaded insert, a spike, and padded cup. After siting speakers to the desired precision, Person A stands behind the speaker with their feet locked behind the two rear gliders, and gently tilts the speaker backward toward their body. Person B slides something solid (book, wood pieces) about 2 inches tall under the speaker front (to prevent spike injury), then screws all the spike thread into the insert, and removes the book or wood. Person A sets the speaker down. Set the spike past the carpet into a concrete or plywood sub floor below. In case of carpet above hard wood/composite floor, set the spike into the cup. In case of tile, linoleum, hard wood or composite floor, put the pad under the cup and set the spike into the cup.
Stand mount speakers come with feat comprising 1 inch diameter circles of appropriate thickness, cut from panels of Sorbothane or 3M ISODAMP (the latter is used to damp magnets in MRI machines). Circles fasten with included “3M Removable Mounting Putty Cat 860.”
A client/tracking studio owner gave us a formula to select feat based on a damping material's “duro” number and the speaker or component's weight. Circle shaped feet are ideal because circles compress linear throughout their area, while a square compresses most in the center and least near the edge (uneven wear).
For clients desiring feet for products purchased elsewhere, we happily cut custom circular damping feet to the proper spec per application, using Sorbothane or 3M ISODAMP, for a little over our material cost.
Sub Woofer Feet
Sub Feet
Price Includes Padded Shipping Crate or Carton
For speakers delivered without packing materials we discount the materials cost for crates and padding.
Warranty
Non-transferable 5 year warranty on materials and workmanship. Buyer is responsible for all shipping.
US and International Shipping
For US clients we get about 10% discount at USPS, FX, and UPS. For items that can ship USPS that is our first choice, about 40% less than FX and UPS. DEBRA sub cabinets about $50/ea to CA, highest we've seen is $96/ea to New Jersey. For international clients Concordia's air freight fee is about 40% less than FX ocean rate.
Specifications Subject To Change
Your standard disclaimer in the case of performance oriented changes!
© James Romeyn | Made nicely by Nicely.
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 10, 2020 12:33:32 GMT -5
Geez all this when all I want to do is to listen to some tunes.
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Post by leonski on Jul 10, 2020 12:51:19 GMT -5
Getting to that point, Ped, CAN be a lot of work. But once there? ?Feet up. Adult Beverage. Send wife out shopping....
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Post by leonski on Jul 11, 2020 15:16:57 GMT -5
I have owned Maggies since mid-80s or so when I bought the MG1s from a buddy. He and his brother were audio guys, builders and experimenters.
The neat part is that I sent 'em back to the factory in the early 2000s and they were rebuilt, new socks and sent back. I later sold 'em and bought....
Wait for ir......some new MG1.6qr which I still have.
I'd like a set of 3.6 or even 20s, which both come with the Magnepan Ribbon, one of the best of its kind. The x.6 and before models can easily be bi-amped.
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