lokyc
Minor Hero
Posts: 71
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Post by lokyc on Jul 19, 2020 15:04:44 GMT -5
Hi all
Lots of clever heads here so I'm sure someone knows the answer. Really impressed with the transparancy of the Reference Stereo mode. But I have dual KKDXD808 subs sitting there like lemons while I have a pair of bookshelf B&W705S2 as mains. Even with the range topping 702S2 it will not go as deep. Any way I can integrate the subs into stereo? The KK's have both XLR and RCA inputs. So can keep the XLRs for HT and the RCA for stereo. I am looking at Minidsp and Antimodes, but I am trying to avoid ADDA conversion for the mains. Maybe a splitter cable. Alternative is to run the subs directly from my DAC's RCA output but then I lose volume control from the XMC-2.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 19, 2020 15:15:34 GMT -5
Hi all Lots of clever heads here so I'm sure someone knows the answer. Really impressed with the transparancy of the Reference Stereo mode. But I have dual KKDXD808 subs sitting there like lemons while I have a pair of bookshelf B&W705S2 as mains. Even with the range topping 702S2 it will not go as deep. Any way I can integrate the subs into stereo? The KK's have both XLR and RCA inputs. So can keep the XLRs for HT and the RCA for stereo. I am looking at Minidsp and Antimodes, but I am trying to avoid ADDA conversion for the mains. Maybe a splitter cable. Alternative is to run the subs directly from my DAC's RCA output but then I lose volume control from the XMC-2.
I’d like them to implement ‘ Reference Bass’, where the L/R signals are mirrored to the L/R subs when in Reference Stereo (and a box is checked), but there’s no indication that’s coming (although the bi-amp wides is a similar concept). In the mean time you might want to look at klinemj’s solution ... Mark!!! |
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Post by metaldaze on Jul 19, 2020 15:51:47 GMT -5
Hi all
Lots of clever heads here so I'm sure someone knows the answer. Really impressed with the transparancy of the Reference Stereo mode. But I have dual KKDXD808 subs sitting there like lemons while I have a pair of bookshelf B&W705S2 as mains. Even with the range topping 702S2 it will not go as deep. Any way I can integrate the subs into stereo? The KK's have both XLR and RCA inputs. So can keep the XLRs for HT and the RCA for stereo. I am looking at Minidsp and Antimodes, but I am trying to avoid ADDA conversion for the mains. Maybe a splitter cable. Alternative is to run the subs directly from my DAC's RCA output but then I lose volume control from the XMC-2.
Went through this just recently. Different processor however. If you wind up mixing XLR with RCA connections make sure you don't forget to adjust the trim levels between them to account for the 6db increase in signal along the balanced path. The only way I was able to obtain bass management while staying with the 'pure direct signal path' for stereo was to add a 2 channel pre-amp which has home theater bypass and analog bass management. Brands other than mine offer this too in their pre-amps but it varies. Sticking with just the XMC-2, have you tried using zone 2 on a fixed output instead of variable, if available? Your subs will just low pass the full range signal. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 19, 2020 16:18:41 GMT -5
lokycHere is what I have been doing with my XMC-1 and plan to do once I get an XMC-2. -->Click Here to See<---If you have any questions, let me know. Mark
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lokyc
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Posts: 71
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Post by lokyc on Jul 19, 2020 17:57:52 GMT -5
Thanks all for your suggestions. I suspect the internal wiring does not have a parallel output to the subs, they only come from the DAC. It will be too complicated for some sort of parallel analog bypass for the subs. And there's 3!
On another note, it seems like running stereo sub is a bit pointless and better to run them as a mono.
I think the Zone 2 output may be an idea. I can use my Harmony remote to adjust the volume simultaneously. Although not sure if it can be done! Although my subs do have volume, phase and LPF, will be a real pain to switch them to bypass for HT everytime. Maybe I can use an Antimode or mniniDSP.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 19, 2020 18:00:36 GMT -5
Hi all Lots of clever heads here so I'm sure someone knows the answer. Really impressed with the transparancy of the Reference Stereo mode. But I have dual KKDXD808 subs sitting there like lemons while I have a pair of bookshelf B&W705S2 as mains. Even with the range topping 702S2 it will not go as deep. Any way I can integrate the subs into stereo? The KK's have both XLR and RCA inputs. So can keep the XLRs for HT and the RCA for stereo. I am looking at Minidsp and Antimodes, but I am trying to avoid ADDA conversion for the mains. Maybe a splitter cable. Alternative is to run the subs directly from my DAC's RCA output but then I lose volume control from the XMC-2.
I’d like them to implement ‘ Reference Bass’, where the L/R signals are mirrored to the L/R subs when in Reference Stereo (and a box is checked), but there’s no indication that’s coming (although the bi-amp wides is a similar concept). In the mean time you might want to look at klinemj’s solution ... Mark!!! Thanks for remembering, and - what you propose is a solution I would also like! I have a work-around, but a built-on option would be nice. Mark |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 19, 2020 18:07:14 GMT -5
Thanks all for your suggestions. I suspect the internal wiring does not have a parallel output to the subs, they only come from the DAC. It will be too complicated for some sort of parallel analog bypass for the subs. And there's 3! On another note, it seems like running stereo sub is a bit pointless and better to run them as a mono. I think the Zone 2 output may be an idea. I can use my Harmony remote to adjust the volume simultaneously. Although not sure if it can be done! Although my subs do have volume, phase and LPF, will be a real pain to switch them to bypass for HT everytime. Maybe I can use an Antimode or mniniDSP. In my experience the Zone 2 outputs are slightly out of sync with the mains, but a much larger problem with that concept is that the Zone 2 outputs don’t track volume with the mains, and don’t think the Harmony will solve that. This could work however with the XMC-1 (and even UMC-1) which had a Z1 ‘mix’ output, this not only duplicated what was coming out of the Mains (Zone 1), it also tracked the volume. Edit: Your comment about the subs only having a ‘digital’ connection is possible, and a potential reason they couldn’t implement reference bass. As for stereo bass, the concept was just to mirror the R/L, once you get into summing and other permutations, the likelihood of implementation goes down (though maybe they could sum into the center sub out). For music I’d have no problem with stereo bass, for HT agree that mono is better. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 19, 2020 18:12:24 GMT -5
Thanks all for your suggestions. I suspect the internal wiring does not have a parallel output to the subs, they only come from the DAC. It will be too complicated for some sort of parallel analog bypass for the subs. And there's 3! On another note, it seems like running stereo sub is a bit pointless and better to run them as a mono. I think the Zone 2 output may be an idea. I can use my Harmony remote to adjust the volume simultaneously. Although not sure if it can be done! Although my subs do have volume, phase and LPF, will be a real pain to switch them to bypass for HT everytime. Maybe I can use an Antimode or mniniDSP. See my approach - no delay. It looks challenging, but it's really easy if your sub allows what mine does. Mark |
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lokyc
Minor Hero
Posts: 71
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Post by lokyc on Jul 20, 2020 0:26:09 GMT -5
Thanks all. Hmm maybe the Z2 makes things more complicated
Mark, may I ask why you buse an RCA switch box?
Y splitters look to be the answer, but given it increases the current draw, does it negatively impact on the signal?
My subs do have phase, LPF and volume selection, but will be a pain to disable them switch by switch everytime i go between HT and stereo use. A Minidsp is probably the way to go.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 22, 2020 1:23:31 GMT -5
Reference analog bass management = JL Audio CR-1 Nothing else like it AND it's transparent enough to be inaudible with your mains. Really.  Plan B (IF you can find a working one, and that's a BIG "if:"  |
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lokyc
Minor Hero
Posts: 71
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Post by lokyc on Jul 26, 2020 7:11:38 GMT -5
Interesting. But at over 3k, I might as well get the Emotiva stereo preamp!
I thought of a different idea. As I use JRiver on a Macmini as my media player, I can do multizone playback and use my now surplus exaSound DAC to output the sub channel. I have an XLR switch so can go between that and the XMC-2. I can use REW to attenuate frequency respons e and timealignment. The DSP will happen in the digital domain so there is no ADDA conversion. I can use Hamony remote to adjust the volume of the XMC-2 and exasound DAC. Convoluted but doable.
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 26, 2020 11:14:22 GMT -5
Hi all Lots of clever heads here so I'm sure someone knows the answer. Really impressed with the transparancy of the Reference Stereo mode. But I have dual KKDXD808 subs sitting there like lemons while I have a pair of bookshelf B&W705S2 as mains. Even with the range topping 702S2 it will not go as deep. Any way I can integrate the subs into stereo? The KK's have both XLR and RCA inputs. So can keep the XLRs for HT and the RCA for stereo. I am looking at Minidsp and Antimodes, but I am trying to avoid ADDA conversion for the mains. Maybe a splitter cable. Alternative is to run the subs directly from my DAC's RCA output but then I lose volume control from the XMC-2.
I’d like them to implement ‘ Reference Bass’, where the L/R signals are mirrored to the L/R subs when in Reference Stereo (and a box is checked), but there’s no indication that’s coming (although the bi-amp wides is a similar concept). In the mean time you might want to look at klinemj ’s solution ... Mark!!! You can use the front wide output when they fix the bi-amp bug. No sound is output to front wides when playing Reference Stereo. But it sure would be better if we had a ”Enhanced bass” for Reference Stereo mode which simply sent a copy of LR to LR subwoofer output. Is it really that hard to implement? |
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lokyc
Minor Hero
Posts: 71
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Post by lokyc on Jul 27, 2020 13:21:38 GMT -5
That would require diverting the signal, apply AD conversion and DSP then DA. It means the processing circuit is switched on and its no longer just the analog part of the unit in action Hence not true Pure Direct stereo.
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Post by hsamwel on Jul 27, 2020 15:02:30 GMT -5
That would require diverting the signal, apply AD conversion and DSP then DA. It means the processing circuit is switched on and its no longer just the analog part of the unit in action Hence not true Pure Direct stereo. So how do they do the front wide bi-amp mode then? AD/DA conversion or simply a straight copy reroute? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 27, 2020 15:02:49 GMT -5
That would require diverting the signal, apply AD conversion and DSP then DA. It means the processing circuit is switched on and its no longer just the analog part of the unit in action Hence not true Pure Direct stereo. Well, we don’t know how the signal is routed in the G3P’s though you may have a better idea than I, but essentially Reference Bass asks for the analog signal coming out of L/R to be duplicated in the subs L/R. If as you say, the only path to the Subs XLR out is through a digital circuit, then this may not be possible. Maybe the problem with the bi-amp wides not outputting when in Reference Stereo that hsamwel mentions, lends credibility to your point. |
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Post by alexreusch on Jul 28, 2020 3:04:28 GMT -5
I do like, that there is no additional processing added in Reference Stereo Mode. That's the reason I am buying this device: An already processed analog signal that is untouched and only passes a high quality resistor ladder based volume controller. If you need digital processing of the audio signal, use Direct Mode. That's why this mode has been created.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 28, 2020 7:42:42 GMT -5
I do like, that there is no additional processing added in Reference Stereo Mode. That's the reason I am buying this device: An already processed analog signal that is untouched and only passes a high quality resistor ladder based volume controller. If you need digital processing of the audio signal, use Direct Mode. That's why this mode has been created. The concept of ‘Reference Bass’ is to get the same untouched analog signal to your subwoofer, allowing you to use its crossover capabilities (which are normally disabled). However there is a contention that there is no analog path to the subwoofer, which would make this impossible. So, no, we don’t want digital processing for this feature. |
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