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Post by computerdip on Aug 31, 2021 18:37:11 GMT -5
Although I don't have a TA/PT-100, in an attempt to help I've run the following tests on the USB input my (admittedly older) Emotiva DC-1, most of which I'd done before, but again to be sure. Maybe KeithL can tell us why this might work on one Emotiva USB model, but not another. Mac mini 2018 <USB-C---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Works with all Mac sounds and plays Apple Music LosslesslyiPad Pro 11 <USB-C---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Plays Apple & Amazon Music Losslessly & BitperfectiPhone X <Lightning--Camera Adapter--USB-AF< <USB-A---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Plays Apple & Amazon Music Losslessly & Bitperfect (power also connected) Other Apps may work, but this is all I've tested. I'm also pretty sure I've done all of these same tests on the USB-B input on my RMC-1 with the same results. Edit: Upon further testing with the iPhone & iPad I find that everything I play with Amazon Music is at 192K, I have a feeling this is being resampled and may not be Bitperfect. Does anyone else get different results with Amazon Music? Thanks. I slightly modified my streaming setup to go through Coax. I'm using Airplay to stream at 16-bit / 44.1 khz and it sounds really great. Anyway, further evidence that the USB and OS update is the issue. I'd still like to use the USB setup but it sounds like this is an Apple issue not an Emotiva issue. Still, any guidance on this is appreciated.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2021 19:46:29 GMT -5
Although I don't have a TA/PT-100, in an attempt to help I've run the following tests on the USB input my (admittedly older) Emotiva DC-1, most of which I'd done before, but again to be sure. Maybe KeithL can tell us why this might work on one Emotiva USB model, but not another. Mac mini 2018 <USB-C---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Works with all Mac sounds and plays Apple Music LosslesslyiPad Pro 11 <USB-C---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Plays Apple & Amazon Music Losslessly & BitperfectiPhone X <Lightning--Camera Adapter--USB-AF< <USB-A---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Plays Apple & Amazon Music Losslessly & Bitperfect (power also connected) Other Apps may work, but this is all I've tested. I'm also pretty sure I've done all of these same tests on the USB-B input on my RMC-1 with the same results. Edit: Upon further testing with the iPhone & iPad I find that everything I play with Amazon Music is at 192K, I have a feeling this is being resampled and may not be Bitperfect. Does anyone else get different results with Amazon Music? Thanks. I slightly modified my streaming setup to go through Coax. I'm using Airplay to stream at 16-bit / 44.1 khz and it sounds really great. Anyway, further evidence that the USB and OS update is the issue. I'd still like to use the USB setup but it sounds like this is an Apple issue not an Emotiva issue. Still, any guidance on this is appreciated. AirPlay 2 is very convenient and (if available) always a better option than Bluetooth. So how are doing AirPlay via coax?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 1, 2021 10:42:09 GMT -5
I can offer a bit more detail... for what it's worth. (I should also point out that simply playing something at the proper sample rate does not necessarily mean it's bit-perfect.)
First of all, as far as I know, Amazon Music generally does NOT offer bit-perfect playback. The last time I checked the Amazon Music Windows client supports HD audio but is NOT bit-perfect. The Windows client does not support WASAPI mode - which means that the audio will be resampled to the default rate you have configured on your computer. So, if you set the default on your computer to 192k, everything will be output at 192k... and we may hope that actual 192k content may be bit-perfect... but everything else will be upsampled. (This isn't really a tragedy... but it would be nice if they added WASAPI support someday.)
Also, as far as I know, most streaming devices do not support Amazon Music directly (you must connect with your phone then stream it TO the streaming device). And, of course, Bluetooth is NEVER bit-perfect (all of the mainstream Bluetooth CODECs are lossy - including AptX-HD)... DLNA is capable of being bit-perfect but it's usually impossible to tell.
At least one reviewer did claim to have tested a Bluesound Node and found that it WAS bit-perfect with Amazon Music (which would make it the only streaming device that is). The Bluesound Node does actually stream from Amazon Music "directly".
MOST Apple devices support bit-perfect playback, when using a wired connection, if you can convince them to give you a digital audio output. Most "real Apple computers" also support USB Audio Class 2 - which allows sample rates up to and above 192k. There are no extra drivers for Apple computers and none should be needed. Adapters like the lightning-to-USB-camera-adapter are required because some Apple devices will only output digital audio to "real Apple devices". The adapter has an "encryption processor" which meets this requirement. However, once you get past that, most Apple devices will work with all of our DACs... going back to the XDA-2 and XDA-1. (All of our separate DACs, from the XDA-2 forward, are UAC2; the PT-100 and TA-100 were not; the PT1 and TA1 ARE UAC2.).
Microsoft Windows, up to and including the first few versions of Windows 10, DID NOT have built-in support for USB Audio Class 2. Therefore, in order to use UAC2 devices with Windows, you needed to install a separate driver (usually provided by the DAC manufacturer).
For several years now Windows 10 has supported UAC2 and so will normally not require a USB driver with any of our products. THE ONE EXCEPTION IS THE USB INPUT ON THE PT1 AND TA1.
This USB input is UAC2, supports up to 24/192k, and doesn't require a driver for Apple computers... However it DOES require a driver for Windows - up to and including the current latest release of Windows 10 (20H2). (That is always subject to change in a future Windows update). (It also works without a driver with Volumio, running on a Raspberry Pi, using Linux.)
The PT-100 and TA-100 are both USB Audio Class 1 devices... They should work on pretty much any device that offers a USB audio output - including older versions of Windows - without any extra drivers.
Although I don't have a TA/PT-100, in an attempt to help I've run the following tests on the USB input my (admittedly older) Emotiva DC-1, most of which I'd done before, but again to be sure. Maybe KeithL can tell us why this might work on one Emotiva USB model, but not another. Mac mini 2018 <USB-C---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Works with all Mac sounds and plays Apple Music LosslesslyiPad Pro 11 <USB-C---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Plays Apple & Amazon Music Losslessly & BitperfectiPhone X <Lightning--Camera Adapter--USB-AF< <USB-A---cable---USB-B> DC-1 : Plays Apple & Amazon Music Losslessly & Bitperfect (power also connected) Other Apps may work, but this is all I've tested. I'm also pretty sure I've done all of these same tests on the USB-B input on my RMC-1 with the same results. Edit: Upon further testing with the iPhone & iPad I find that everything I play with Amazon Music is at 192K, I have a feeling this is being resampled and may not be Bitperfect. Does anyone else get different results with Amazon Music? Thanks. I slightly modified my streaming setup to go through Coax. I'm using Airplay to stream at 16-bit / 44.1 khz and it sounds really great. Anyway, further evidence that the USB and OS update is the issue. I'd still like to use the USB setup but it sounds like this is an Apple issue not an Emotiva issue. Still, any guidance on this is appreciated.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 1, 2021 13:45:02 GMT -5
I may have started a Red Herring by mentioning Amazon Music as it is not part of the OP, but just thought I'd test it as I was trying to troubleshoot what others were seeing. The issue for this thread is more generally getting an iPhone to play via USB into a PT or TA-100....I should also point out that simply playing something at the proper sample rate does not necessarily mean it's bit-perfect.) Ok, but without playing the native rate we know it's not bit perfect, and if the rate changes with the song the likelihood that it's bit perfect is high. First of all, as far as I know, Amazon Music generally does NOT offer bit-perfect playback. The last time I checked the Amazon Music Windows client supports HD audio but is NOT bit-perfect. The Windows client does not support WASAPI mode - which means that the audio will be resampled to the default rate you have configured on your computer. So, if you set the default on your computer to 192k, everything will be output at 192k... and we may hope that actual 192k content may be bit-perfect... but everything else will be upsampled. (This isn't really a tragedy... but it would be nice if they added WASAPI support someday.) My experience with Amazon Music on the Mac has been the same, I've made some posts and sent eMails trying to encourage them to fix their "Exclusive Mode", but I'm not holding my breath. Another problem is that the Apple Music App on the Mac (and I assume Windows), doesn't offer an Exclusive Mode either, and also plays at the system rate. So Amazon can just say "we do what Apple does". I hold a 'sliver' of hope that Apple Music will get a 'lossless facelift' with macOS 12 (Monterey) and support an Exclusive / Direct mode (at least with Apple Music), hopefully we find that out this month. However, when I mentioned the 192K above, I was on my iPhone and iPad, and I'd never tried Amazon Music via USB to the DC-1 before. There is (to my knowledge) no way to alter the iOS 'system setting', maybe it defaults to 192K, but I now suspect that the Amazon iOS App is just sending everything at 192K so they can call it HD/UHD and be done with it. Apple Music on iOS and iPadOS does send everything at the native / bitperfect rate when connected via USB. Also, as far as I know, most streaming devices do not support Amazon Music directly (you must connect with your phone then stream it TO the streaming device). And, of course, Bluetooth is NEVER bit-perfect (all of the mainstream Bluetooth CODECs are lossy - including AptX-HD)...DLNA is capable of being bit-perfect but it's usually impossible to tell. At least one reviewer did claim to have tested a Bluesound Node and found that it WAS bit-perfect with Amazon Music (which would make it the only streaming device that is). The Bluesound Node does actually stream from Amazon Music "directly". There is also an Amazon Music Client/App for the TV, which does stream directly from Amazon. Once again though (at this time) everything is resampled to 24/48, as is everything on TV. There is another sliver of hope that tvOS 15 might change that limitation, but I've not read much about that. AirPlay 2 is another place improvements in bitrate would be welcome, and since it is not limited to WiFi (it also runs on Ethernet), could be a very powerful protocol for Apple environments. I believe Bluesound supports AirPlay 2 so they would also benefit. MOST Apple devices support bit-perfect playback, when using a wired connection, if you can convince them to give you a digital audio output. Most "real Apple computers" also support USB Audio Class 2 - which allows sample rates up to and above 192k.There are no extra drivers for Apple computers and none should be needed.Adapters like the lightning-to-USB-camera-adapter are required because some Apple devices will only output digital audio to "real Apple devices".The adapter has an "encryption processor" which meets this requirement. However, once you get past that, most Apple devices will work with all of our DACs... going back to the XDA-2 and XDA-1 (All of our separate DACs, from the XDA-2 forward, are UAC2; the PT-100 and TA-100 were not; (the PT1 and TA1 ARE UAC2.). ... OK, is the rubber finally meeting the road here? The OP and others in this thread can't get the iPhone with Camera Kit and USB connection to PT/TA-100 to work (I showed it does with the DC-1). Is lack of UAC2 with the PT/TA-100 the cause of this problem?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 1, 2021 17:17:02 GMT -5
You did bring up an interesting possibility earlier....
In general UAC1 is, and always has been, much more widely supported than UAC2. For example, both Apple and Windows supported UAC1 long before Windows supported UAC2. (UAC1 was what everyone called "driverless mode" when UAC2 required drivers.) However, with very few exceptions, UAC1 tops out at 96k.
At least in theory, upon detecting a UAC1 device, the source should simply fall back to UAC1, and then down sample if necessary.
However, if for some reason they are "locking" the output to 192k, and have somehow "locked out" down sampling, then that would be a problem.
It's also possible that the hardware in the Camera Adapter simply doesn't support UAC1. I can see how, if the PT-100 supports UAC1 but not UAC2, and the adapter supports UAC2 but not UAC1, the result would be silence... (That would seem like a crazy limitation to me - since many things you might want to connect probably are still UAC1 - but I guess it's possible.)
..................................................................... MOST Apple devices support bit-perfect playback, when using a wired connection, if you can convince them to give you a digital audio output. Most "real Apple computers" also support USB Audio Class 2 - which allows sample rates up to and above 192k.There are no extra drivers for Apple computers and none should be needed.Adapters like the lightning-to-USB-camera-adapter are required because some Apple devices will only output digital audio to "real Apple devices".The adapter has an "encryption processor" which meets this requirement. However, once you get past that, most Apple devices will work with all of our DACs... going back to the XDA-2 and XDA-1 (All of our separate DACs, from the XDA-2 forward, are UAC2; the PT-100 and TA-100 were not; (the PT1 and TA1 ARE UAC2.). ... OK, is the rubber finally meeting the road here? The OP and others in this thread can't get the iPhone with Camera Kit and USB connection to PT/TA-100 to work (I showed it does with the DC-1). Is lack of UAC2 with the PT/TA-100 the cause of this problem?
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 1, 2021 18:30:14 GMT -5
You did bring up an interesting possibility earlier.... In general UAC1 is, and always has been, much more widely supported than UAC2. For example, both Apple and Windows supported UAC1 long before Windows supported UAC2. (UAC1 was what everyone called "driverless mode" when UAC2 required drivers.) However, with very few exceptions, UAC1 tops out at 96k. At least in theory, upon detecting a UAC1 device, the source should simply fall back to UAC1, and then down sample if necessary.
However, if for some reason they are "locking" the output to 192k, and have somehow "locked out" down sampling, then that would be a problem.
It's also possible that the hardware in the Camera Adapter simply doesn't support UAC1. I can see how, if the PT-100 supports UAC1 but not UAC2, and the adapter supports UAC2 but not UAC1, the result would be silence... (That would seem like a crazy limitation to me - since many things you might want to connect probably are still UAC1 - but I guess it's possible.)
..................................................................... OK, is the rubber finally meeting the road here? The OP and others in this thread can't get the iPhone with Camera Kit and USB connection to PT/TA-100 to work (I showed it does with the DC-1). Is lack of UAC2 with the PT/TA-100 the cause of this problem? So I can see that as a reason Amazon Music might not work, but as I said that was a bit of a Red Herring because I don’t think anyone else was using Amazon — and that was the only place I only saw 192K. With Apple Music, I got 16/44, 24/96, 24/48, etc. It’s possible the Apple Camera Kit doesn’t support UAC1, I can’t find an Apple statement about it, but did find an unsubstantiated statement that it does, from diyaudio: “Also, with the USB camera connection kit, you can hook up USB audio devices. It definitely supports UAC1, and I think it supports UAC2. It also supports USB MIDI controls. You may need to add a powered USB hub for higher power devices, though providing power through the lighting port may take care of that too.” Also, I found this thread that we’ve covered this ground before, it probably needs to be documented so we don’t waste any more time with it. emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/57970/challenge-using-ipad-source-output?page=1In the mean time I’m saying that the Apple Camera Kit doesn’t work with the PT or TA-100 … prove me wrong.
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Post by computerdip on Sept 1, 2021 20:55:53 GMT -5
"In the mean time I’m saying that the Apple Camera Kit doesn’t work with the PT or TA-100 … prove me wrong."
I already did - the IPad mini 3 running on OS 12 worked with PT-100 using the USB cable and Apple Camera Kit. The latest IOS for both laptop and Iphone is the issue. That's further supported by the fact that MacBook Air on the old OS also worked and stopped working once I updated to the latest OS. The mini 3 is no longer supported but I'd bet later model ipads running on newer IOS face similar problems.
Keith said "However, if for some reason they are "locking" the output to 192k, and have somehow "locked out" down sampling, then that would be a problem."
I think something like is going on and I wonder if the native sample rate switching feature on Apple Music is the cause. Anyway, thanks for the back and forth, I'm content to give up on it for now. I'm using the RPi + All Digione via the PT-100 Coax and I'm pleased with results.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 1, 2021 22:10:03 GMT -5
"In the mean time I’m saying that the Apple Camera Kit doesn’t work with the PT or TA-100 … prove me wrong." I already did - the IPad mini 3 running on OS 12 worked with PT-100 using the USB cable and Apple Camera Kit. The latest IOS for both laptop and Iphone is the issue. That's further supported by the fact that MacBook Air on the old OS also worked and stopped working once I updated to the latest OS. The mini 3 is no longer supported but I'd bet later model ipads running on newer IOS face similar problems. Keith said "However, if for some reason they are "locking" the output to 192k, and have somehow "locked out" down sampling, then that would be a problem." I think something like is going on and I wonder if the native sample rate switching feature on Apple Music is the cause. Anyway, thanks for the back and forth, I'm content to give up on it for now. I'm using the RPi + All Digione via the PT-100 Coax and I'm pleased with results. Ok, but my iPhone with Camera Kit is not locked at 192k, except when using Amazon music, so that was just speculation (and in my opinion a red herring). The thread I linked above showed people having the same problem a year ago. Apple Music running at native rate further shows it’s not locked at 192k. So we need to further qualify what iOS is being used. But since I can’t test a PT/TA-100, I can only follow what’s being reported, I don’t think I caught that yours ever worked. I’ll stick with my statement, but amend it with a ‘currently’, but honestly, there are a lot of variables at work. Finding another UAC1 DAC to test would be interesting.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 2, 2021 10:57:34 GMT -5
Bear in mind that, with USB, the source device, and the software running on it, can see a lot about what's connected to it... And Apple has a bit of history with deliberately restricting what they're willing to output music to... So it's possible that Apple Music, or Apple Music running on certain devices, or even certain types of Apple Music accounts, may no longer be willing to output audio via the Camera Adapter...
(It's also possible that there's some new setting you need to find and change in the new version of IOS...)
We're not really set up to dig into Apple issues... but clearly a few people are having "sample rate issues" with Apple Music...
I also don't know if it needs to be said... but... you are using a REAL Apple Camera Adapter and not a knockoff... right? I've heard reports that, with the old pre-lightning camera adapter, there were knockoffs that worked for a while... then didn't work...
There also seem to be several different versions of the current camera adapter - which may not all work the same.
(Too bad they don't just support a standard USB audio connection - which SOME newer Apple devices do...)
"In the mean time I’m saying that the Apple Camera Kit doesn’t work with the PT or TA-100 … prove me wrong." I already did - the IPad mini 3 running on OS 12 worked with PT-100 using the USB cable and Apple Camera Kit. The latest IOS for both laptop and Iphone is the issue. That's further supported by the fact that MacBook Air on the old OS also worked and stopped working once I updated to the latest OS. The mini 3 is no longer supported but I'd bet later model ipads running on newer IOS face similar problems. Keith said "However, if for some reason they are "locking" the output to 192k, and have somehow "locked out" down sampling, then that would be a problem." I think something like is going on and I wonder if the native sample rate switching feature on Apple Music is the cause. Anyway, thanks for the back and forth, I'm content to give up on it for now. I'm using the RPi + All Digione via the PT-100 Coax and I'm pleased with results. Ok, but my iPhone with Camera Kit is not locked at 192k, except when using Amazon music, so that was just speculation (and in my opinion a red herring). The thread I linked above showed people having the same problem a year ago. Apple Music running at native rate further shows it’s not locked at 192k. So we need to further qualify what iOS is being used. But since I can’t test a PT/TA-100, I can only follow what’s being reported, I don’t think I caught that yours ever worked. I’ll stick with my statement, but amend it with a ‘currently’, but honestly, there are a lot of variables at work. Finding another UAC1 DAC to test would be interesting.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 2, 2021 13:46:30 GMT -5
Bear in mind that, with USB, the source device, and the software running on it, can see a lot about what's connected to it... And Apple has a bit of history with deliberately restricting what they're willing to output music to... So it's possible that Apple Music, or Apple Music running on certain devices, or even certain types of Apple Music accounts, may no longer be willing to output audio via the Camera Adapter...
(It's also possible that there's some new setting you need to find and change in the new version of IOS...) We're not really set up to dig into Apple issues... but clearly a few people are having "sample rate issues" with Apple Music...
I also don't know if it needs to be said... but... you are using a REAL Apple Camera Adapter and not a knockoff... right? I've heard reports that, with the old pre-lightning camera adapter, there were knockoffs that worked for a while... then didn't work... There also seem to be several different versions of the current camera adapter - which may not all work the same.
(Too bad they don't just support a standard USB audio connection - which SOME newer Apple devices do...)
Ok, but my iPhone with Camera Kit is not locked at 192k, except when using Amazon music, so that was just speculation (and in my opinion a red herring). The thread I linked above showed people having the same problem a year ago. Apple Music running at native rate further shows it’s not locked at 192k. So we need to further qualify what iOS is being used. But since I can’t test a PT/TA-100, I can only follow what’s being reported, I don’t think I caught that yours ever worked. I’ll stick with my statement, but amend it with a ‘currently’, but honestly, there are a lot of variables at work. Finding another UAC1 DAC to test would be interesting. Please read your links before confusing these posts more. They refer to Apple Music on macOS which I have said MANY time does not have an Exclusive / Native mode, and operates more or less like Amazon Music on Windows or macos, it outputs at what the System is set at. As far as I know, no one has complained their Mac doesn't work with the PT/TA-100.Let's keep this thread about iOS & iPadOS and finding out why people can't get it to work with the PT/TA-100.Knock off (non-Apple) Camera Adapters are certainly an issue, and anyone reading shouldn't expect them to work unless you've proven it otherwise. I do have an Apple Camera Adapter (and even have an older Apple Camera Adapter with 30-Pin & a 30-Pin to lightning adapter), but I don't have a PT/TA-100 to test with, it does work fine with the DC-1. I'm still interested to see if we can identify another UAC1 only DAC, to test the theory that the Camera Adapter -- with current iOS -- also meaning the iPhone is within the last 6 years -- is incompatible with UAC1. We could further eliminate the Camera Adapter by using something like my iPad Pro 11, that has USB-C output and doesn't need an adapter to feed the DAC -- again it works perfectly (in fact bit-perfectly) with my DC-1. I too wish Apple would replace the Lightning connector with USB-C on the iPhone, but that's a topic for another thread. So -- can anyone suggest another UAC1 only DAC? Can anyone with a PT/TA-100 confirm whether an iPad with USB-C output works with at PT/TA-100? ( KeithL, can't you guys at least test the second?) Edit: I now see that there was reference to 'iOS' on a MacBook Air above, which is actually macOS.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 2, 2021 14:22:05 GMT -5
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Post by computerdip on Sept 2, 2021 16:41:59 GMT -5
Thanks, Keith. I tried both versions of the Lightning to USB Camera Adapter (both purchased at the Apple Store) and neither work with the Iphone SE v2 iOS 14.7.1. They **do work** with the Apple Mini 3 iOS 12.5.4. It's gotta be the mac/iOS and UAC1, especially since AudioHTIT has no issues with latest iOS and DC-1 USB UAC2.
Again, the strongest case, I think, for the OS (mac/ipad/iOS) is that MacBook Air USB to PT-100 running an older macOS worked perfectly. When I updated the macOS to the latest version (a week later), it stopped working.
All the equipment works on its own or in combination with other devices. It's something about the latest OS and the Audio Class UAC1.
Just to recap -> Apple Devices w/ Emotiva PT-100 USB Input:
Apple Mini 3 iOS 12.5.4 w/ Camera Adapter - Works Iphone SE (v2) iOS 14.7.1 - Doesn't work MacBook Air > USB macOS Catalina - Works Macbook Air > USB macOS Big Sur - Doesn't Work
Anyway, sounds like an Apple thing not an Emotiva thing. But Emotiva could def help out by sending a free PT1 my way. Thanks for the back and forth, this is really my last post!
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Post by hawksley on Mar 14, 2022 12:32:02 GMT -5
Does anyone have a solution for streaming from an iPhone into the USB input of the TA-100? I am attempting to stream Qobuz from my iPhone 11 pro through the camera adapter usb output to the asynchronous USB input. The amp seems to recognize the connection but will not play any sound and eventually the playback on the iPhone just stops itself. Thanks for any help you can offer. This was fixed on my PT-100 in IOS 15.something. May want to try again after upgrading IOS.
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Post by rhettro on Aug 18, 2022 15:53:40 GMT -5
It’s real simple, just turn up the volume on your iPhone! Done been through this my self. I have to run max volume output on my iPhone 12 to iPhone camera adapter to Audioquest Jitterbug to USB A to B to input on my PT1.
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