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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 8, 2020 11:57:12 GMT -5
LOL, paypal me $50 plus shipping! Make it $45 and you got a deal! LOL |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 8, 2020 11:58:59 GMT -5
Oh WOW, garbulky - Good eye - I completely missed it. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 12:00:41 GMT -5
Thank you, HTIT.
Beautiful work on that natural cherry! - mine are the standard darker shade.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 8, 2020 12:23:55 GMT -5
Bill, just to clarify, you're using the MC275's for this measurement, correct?
My tubes don't go that high with my stats.
edit: What I mean by that is, 20kHz is -20dB.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 8, 2020 12:50:05 GMT -5
Bill, just to clarify, you're using the MC275's for this measurement, correct? My tubes don't go that high with my stats. edit: What I mean by that is, 20kHz is -20dB. Is that measuring just the amp, or speaker too? |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 12:52:49 GMT -5
This the mc452 and 3.6/r speakers
I drive my pbns with the 275s.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 8, 2020 12:57:47 GMT -5
Bill, just to clarify, you're using the MC275's for this measurement, correct? My tubes don't go that high with my stats. edit: What I mean by that is, 20kHz is -20dB. Is that measuring just the amp, or speaker too? That was just a guess. But actually measuring amp vs amp it's a 14dB difference at 20kHz. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 8, 2020 13:13:15 GMT -5
This the mc452 and 3.6/r speakers I drive my pbns with the 275s. Ahhh, so I don't feel so bad then. I just compared the Krell vs the M-125 and get this result with no correction driving the stats, no Dirac, just XMC-2, amps and Right speaker, using REW psychoacoustic smoothing. The M-125 tube amp is orange. What other color would it be? It's a -14dB difference 20khz, and a -4dB difference @10khz, so the tubes lose 10dB over this range.  Sorry to hijack Bill. Just had never compared before and your curve tossed me over the edge, so I just had to do a comparo. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 14:08:54 GMT -5
The m125 roll off is nice, no need to roll it off with dsp......
Also interesting how the M125s track the Krell in the bass....so much for the myth that tubes don't do bass.
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 14:23:35 GMT -5
Ttocs, while we're at it, here's my uncorrected response for the PBN Montana EPS with the MC275s. Roll off like yours, no dsp needed. Powerful bass, too much , here is where dsp in the bass is efffective to flatten that right out. The PBNs are all high $ Scanspeak Revelator drivers, so you can see how nice Maggies are in the first graph. And these list for double the Maggie 3s. IMO, in the right room Maggies are the best buy in Audio. And that soundstage!  |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 8, 2020 14:28:17 GMT -5
The m125 roll off is nice, no need to roll it off with dsp...... Also interesting how the M125s track the Krell in the bass....so much for the myth that tubes don't do bass. Well . . . . . . the speakers have dual powered woofers that are crossed at 300Hz to the panel, plus there's built-in ARC for calibrating the woofers - so while I did say there's no calibration, that's not entirely accurate, there wasn't any External calibration applied when these measurements were made. The ARC is used any time I move the speakers, which was months ago, late last year I think. So the external amp is for the electrostatic panel from 300Hz and up. But, I'm told that the amp signature is mimic'ed by the built-in woofer amps, so there actually might be a tube vs SS thing going on to some degree. Not sure. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 8, 2020 15:02:57 GMT -5
This the mc452 and 3.6/r speakers I drive my pbns with the 275s. Ahhh, so I don't feel so bad then. I just compared the Krell vs the M-125 and get this result with no correction driving the stats, no Dirac, just XMC-2, amps and Right speaker, using REW psychoacoustic smoothing. The M-125 tube amp is orange. What other color would it be? It's a -14dB difference 20khz, and a -4dB difference @10khz, so the tubes lose 10dB over this range. View AttachmentSorry to hijack Bill. Just had never compared before and your curve tossed me over the edge, so I just had to do a comparo. The M-125's audibly rolled off in the treble. For me that was their main weakness. Their strength was their holographic type sound. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 15:06:15 GMT -5
Treble roll off is a good thing to most, Gar. This is why many prefer tubes over transistors, and soft domes over metallic.
Transparency without harshness.
But some folks prefer a dentist drill to a massage, too.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Aug 8, 2020 15:09:15 GMT -5
Ttocs, while we're at it, here's my uncorrected response for the PBN Montana EPS with the MC275s. Roll off like yours, no dsp needed. Powerful bass, too much , here is where dsp in the bass is efffective to flatten that right out. The PBNs are all high $ Scanspeak Revelator drivers, so you can see how nice Maggies are in the first graph. And these list for double the Maggie 3s. IMO, in the right room Maggies are the best buy in Audio. And that soundstage!Yes, that soundstage! Soundstage is so important. When I did a comparo with a friend right after I had some time with the M-125's, the take-away was that both the Krell and the M-125 amps sounded great, but the M-125's seemed to make the music "right there" as he pointed with his finger into the soundstage. So, I really don't know what the driving force of the great soundstage actually is. Is it because of comparing solid state vs tubes? or, could it be multi-channel vs mono? While it would be nice to know, I immediately didn't care once I heard it. With that said, since I've been moving some things around, I might hookup the Krell again since it has been 15 months with tubes. |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 15:39:34 GMT -5
I think a lot of soundstage has to do with careful speaker placement as well as the amp-speaker relationship, and with tubes that's generally done with transformers.
DSP, by adjusting the in-room response separately for each channel, also has the potential to dramatically improve perceived imaging and soundstage by creating equal power response at different frequencies.
Have fun!
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Post by garbulky on Aug 8, 2020 15:51:21 GMT -5
Treble roll off is a good thing to most, Gar. This is why many prefer tubes over transistors, and soft domes over metallic. Transparency without harshness. But some folks prefer a dentist drill to a massage, too. I mean, yeah, I guess. I won't argue with you on preference. I think that type of tube sound is definitely a thing people can get addicted to. Some people like that roll off. It gives a bit of the old school feel to music that tickles the memory centers. Think the KEF LS50's or the JBL L100 sound. Having said that I have heard a set of tube amps that did not feel rolled off in the treble and they sounded phenomenal. These were B'zilla's heathkits. I think a good extended treble response though shouldn't be harsh or like a dentist drill. After all the treble present in the real world doesn't feel harsh and it has unlimited extension. If it's harsh there's something wrong. Usually the tweeters can't cut it or the dac is producing a glare both of which are some form of undesirable distortion or improper reporduction. I've heard a few of those. It comes down to a tone, and those speakers/electronics get the tone wrong. The older Oppo's had a healthy dose of that with the older Saber Chipset. Some older Polks had a bit of a harshness with the treble. Proper treble reproduction shouldn't sound harsh, but simply more complete, natural, open, detailed, and closer to the real thing. Extended high frequency response allows me to hear the sense of air in a recording, a little bit of the more subtle sounds like the rustle of movement, very quick decays etc. For me treble roll off dulls the ear and gives a muddiness to the sound and blunts the sense of the size of the recording space. I'm not sure if I have heard many silk dome tweeters. Maybe I have and didn't know it... |
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Post by brutiarti on Aug 8, 2020 15:52:26 GMT -5
Bill, did you have a chance to try the phono preamp section of your C2600??
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 16:09:12 GMT -5
Not yet, it has two separate tubed phono stages, one for MM and one for MC. Circuitry optimized for each type.
The beast has six tubes, two phono stages, a great dac, and all the system control you could ask for.
I'm glad I have it.
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Post by audiobill on Aug 8, 2020 16:11:21 GMT -5
Treble roll off is a good thing to most, Gar. This is why many prefer tubes over transistors, and soft domes over metallic. Transparency without harshness. But some folks prefer a dentist drill to a massage, too. I mean, yeah, I guess. I won't argue with you on preference. I think that type of tube sound is definitely a thing people can get addicted to. Some people like that roll off. It gives a bit of the old school feel to music that tickles the memory centers. Think the KEF LS50's or the JBL L100 sound. Having said that I have heard a set of tube amps that did not feel rolled off in the treble and they sounded phenomenal. These were B'zilla's heathkits. I think a good extended treble response though shouldn't be harsh or like a dentist drill. After all the treble present in the real world doesn't feel harsh and it has unlimited extension. If it's harsh there's something wrong. Usually the tweeters can't cut it or the dac is producing a glare both of which are some form of undesirable distortion or improper reporduction. I've heard a few of those. It comes down to a tone, and those speakers/electronics get the tone wrong. The older Oppo's had a healthy dose of that with the older Saber Chipset. Some older Polks had a bit of a harshness with the treble. Proper treble reproduction shouldn't sound harsh, but simply more complete, natural, open, detailed, and closer to the real thing. Extended high frequency response allows me to hear the sense of air in a recording, a little bit of the more subtle sounds like the rustle of movement, very quick decays etc. For me treble roll off dulls the ear and gives a muddiness to the sound and blunts the sense of the size of the recording space. I'm not sure if I have heard many silk dome tweeters. Maybe I have and didn't know it... Listen to the smoothness of violins in a real orchestra, or the metallic ring of a cymbal instead of sandpaper, or the lack of spit in a female's voice and you'll hear what many love. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Aug 8, 2020 17:23:57 GMT -5
This the mc452 and 3.6/r speakers I drive my pbns with the 275s. Ahhh, so I don't feel so bad then. I just compared the Krell vs the M-125 and get this result with no correction driving the stats, no Dirac, just XMC-2, amps and Right speaker, using REW psychoacoustic smoothing. The M-125 tube amp is orange. What other color would it be? It's a -14dB difference 20khz, and a -4dB difference @10khz, so the tubes lose 10dB over this range. View AttachmentSorry to hijack Bill. Just had never compared before and your curve tossed me over the edge, so I just had to do a comparo. Nevermind, 140db range on the graph explains it all😎 |
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