haptik
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
|
Post by haptik on Aug 16, 2020 11:33:10 GMT -5
Hi folks, I'm deciding between the XPA11 vs. DR3. Could use some feedback. My objective: Raise the total performance of my system by the greatest amount for $2,000 or less. My usage is about 70/30 movies to music in terms of listening time, though I listen much more critically to music than to movies. My 5.2 setup: - 1400 cu ft acoustically treated dedicated room
- Legacy Audio Silhouette across the front stage: 4 ohm, 92 dB sensitivity.
- DefTech ProCinema 1000 side surrounds (looking to upgrade these in the near term)
- Dual PSA 15V subs crossed over at 80 hz
- Denon X4400H
I was ready to buy the DR3 to focus the upgrade on my front stage. I mostly listen to TIDAL Hifi or Master 24-bit streaming tracks and Dolby Atmos blu-ray discs. I have a fairly low in-room noise floor so I can take some advantage of the added dynamic range of transients that 600 wpc @ 4 ohm (all channels driven) can provide, which is what I was aiming for. According to Bill Dudleston's math (founder of Legacy Audio), if you listen at an average of 60 dB and want to take advantage of 24-bits of dynamic range, you need 600 watts to render 24-bit transient peaks, which the DR3 seems like it could deliver fairly easily since it's rated at 600 wpc RMS. I listen at about 75 dB on average. But then I started reading that other folks experience a sizable improvement to their surrounds when powering them with external amplification, which got me thinking about the XPA11, which provides 3 high-current channels for the front stage, and 8 lower-powered channels that I could use for my current side surrounds (and for overhead speakers in the future). Unfortunately, the XPA11 high-current channels will "only" deliver 490 wpc @ 4 ohm two channels driven (they don't provide output spec for three channels driven). This still seems like a lot of power, but it's also a lot less than the DR3 can produce to the front three channels. So my question: Will I get more total performance out of the XPA11 or the DR3? |
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Aug 16, 2020 11:55:57 GMT -5
So a lot to unpack here. And this is not really what you want to hear, but to an extent your AVR is going to be your limiting factor in getting a huge improvement in your overall sound. But if I was you I would get the DR-3 now since in HT the LCR are by far the most important channels, and of course in music you should be just using two channels. Your Denon has more than enough power for you surrounds.
Now if you follow the same pattern many of us here have you will buy the extra large amp, and it will sound better but you feel like you will be missing something. And that something you will find out is your source (Denon AVR in this case). Eventually you will talk your self into going with a full pre/pro with balanced XLR outputs. You may go Marantz 8805 or Emotiva XMC-2 etc but they will be the path you take in the future (plus extra amp for your surround/in ceiling speakers).
I’m not saying this to scare you off, it’s just what has happened to so many of us on this board. We start with really nice AVRs (like you have), add amps, then upgrade processors.
|
|
haptik
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
|
Post by haptik on Aug 16, 2020 12:24:49 GMT -5
So a lot to unpack here. And this is not really what you want to hear, but to an extent your AVR is going to be your limiting factor in getting a huge improvement in your overall sound. But if I was you I would get the DR-3 now since in HT the LCR are by far the most important channels, and of course in music you should be just using two channels. Your Denon has more than enough power for you surrounds. Now if you follow the same pattern many of us here have you will buy the extra large amp, and it will sound better but you feel like you will be missing something. And that something you will find out is your source (Denon AVR in this case). Eventually you will talk your self into going with a full pre/pro with balanced XLR outputs. You may go Marantz 8805 or Emotiva XMC-2 etc but they will be the path you take in the future (plus extra amp for your surround/in ceiling speakers). I’m not saying this to scare you off, it’s just what has happened to so many of us on this board. We start with really nice AVRs (like you have), add amps, then upgrade processors. Thanks for the guidance. So if I will eventually need to upgrade to processor regardless of the amp I choose now, are you recommending the DR3 because it should provide a greater total improvement over the XPA11 at this point? Is that because of its power potential? If I’ll get similar front stage performance out of the XPA11, then that would seem like the more future-proof way to go. Btw, I upmix my music with Auro-2D. I know stereo purists will scoff at that, but I have extensively A/B’d Auro-2D against stereo and I prefer the immersion of the upmix. So perhaps that adds more reason to power my center sufficiently even when listening to music. |
|
|
|
Post by frenchyfranky on Aug 16, 2020 14:51:23 GMT -5
600w RMS power amp can supply a way lot more in dynamic transient peaks, maybe twice, triple or more as the nominal RMS, it is not easy to evaluate and manufacturers habitually don't give this value because it's depends on speakers technical specs used with the amp, usually the powered subwoofer manufacturers gives you this peaks wattage because the speaker driver specs is already included in the chain.
So maybe a 600w RMS power amp can transient peak a fraction of second near 1800w
Just a quick note about your concern.
|
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Aug 16, 2020 15:13:48 GMT -5
So a lot to unpack here. And this is not really what you want to hear, but to an extent your AVR is going to be your limiting factor in getting a huge improvement in your overall sound. But if I was you I would get the DR-3 now since in HT the LCR are by far the most important channels, and of course in music you should be just using two channels. Your Denon has more than enough power for you surrounds. Now if you follow the same pattern many of us here have you will buy the extra large amp, and it will sound better but you feel like you will be missing something. And that something you will find out is your source (Denon AVR in this case). Eventually you will talk your self into going with a full pre/pro with balanced XLR outputs. You may go Marantz 8805 or Emotiva XMC-2 etc but they will be the path you take in the future (plus extra amp for your surround/in ceiling speakers). I’m not saying this to scare you off, it’s just what has happened to so many of us on this board. We start with really nice AVRs (like you have), add amps, then upgrade processors. Thanks for the guidance. So if I will eventually need to upgrade to processor regardless of the amp I choose now, are you recommending the DR3 because it should provide a greater total improvement over the XPA11 at this point? Is that because of its power potential? If I’ll get similar front stage performance out of the XPA11, then that would seem like the more future-proof way to go. Btw, I upmix my music with Auro-2D. I know stereo purists will scoff at that, but I have extensively A/B’d Auro-2D against stereo and I prefer the immersion of the upmix. So perhaps that adds more reason to power my center sufficiently even when listening to music. Yeah that’s kind of a different question then what will make the biggest difference today. The XPA-11 is a fine amp. I have a XPA-9 and I am very happy with it. From a future proof stand point the XPA-11 would for sure be the way to go. The difference between the 11 and the DR-3 are not crazy different |
|
haptik
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
|
Post by haptik on Aug 16, 2020 18:23:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the guidance. So if I will eventually need to upgrade to processor regardless of the amp I choose now, are you recommending the DR3 because it should provide a greater total improvement over the XPA11 at this point? Is that because of its power potential? If I’ll get similar front stage performance out of the XPA11, then that would seem like the more future-proof way to go. Btw, I upmix my music with Auro-2D. I know stereo purists will scoff at that, but I have extensively A/B’d Auro-2D against stereo and I prefer the immersion of the upmix. So perhaps that adds more reason to power my center sufficiently even when listening to music. Yeah that’s kind of a different question then what will make the biggest difference today. The XPA-11 is a fine amp. I have a XPA-9 and I am very happy with it. From a future proof stand point the XPA-11 would for sure be the way to go. The difference between the 11 and the DR-3 are not crazy different Cool, so then it seems like I might be better off with an XPA-3, add more channels when I need them, and save $800 towards a pre/pro? |
|
|
|
Post by creimes on Aug 16, 2020 21:32:31 GMT -5
Yeah that’s kind of a different question then what will make the biggest difference today. The XPA-11 is a fine amp. I have a XPA-9 and I am very happy with it. From a future proof stand point the XPA-11 would for sure be the way to go. The difference between the 11 and the DR-3 are not crazy different Cool, so then it seems like I might be better off with an XPA-3, add more channels when I need them, and save $800 towards a pre/pro? Going with the build your own XPA amp you could do the eleven in the "ELEVEN-3-4S" configuration which would give you 3 mono blades for your LCR and 4 stereo blades for another 8 channels for the surrounds. Cheers, Chad |
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Aug 17, 2020 10:42:49 GMT -5
Yeah that’s kind of a different question then what will make the biggest difference today. The XPA-11 is a fine amp. I have a XPA-9 and I am very happy with it. From a future proof stand point the XPA-11 would for sure be the way to go. The difference between the 11 and the DR-3 are not crazy different Cool, so then it seems like I might be better off with an XPA-3, add more channels when I need them, and save $800 towards a pre/pro? You could but you will be out some shipping cost sending the XPA back to Emotiva for the upgrades (they have to install the blades). If you go that route I would say get a modified XPA-5 (3 mono 1 stereo) so your surrounds are also on the amp. |
|
|
|
Post by tom9933 on Aug 17, 2020 15:20:46 GMT -5
I also came from a Denon (8500 which I still need to sell one of these days) before going to the RMC with Emotiva amps and I agree with the statements above, changing the receiver made the biggest difference. The DR3 feed by the Denon vs the RMC was a dramatic increase in dynamics. As for the XPA vs DR3 I use both but I never directly compared the two on the same speakers. I can say I'm really happy with how my setup sounds now but mine was also more than a 2k upgrade...
|
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Aug 17, 2020 17:48:32 GMT -5
From a pure bang for the buck SQ wise a XPA-11 and a XMC-2 would sound amazing. Or one can pickup a Marantz AV8802A (if going 7.1.4) which is a really good pre amp and save some money on a used one.
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Aug 17, 2020 17:52:07 GMT -5
My suggestion - get a set of used XPA-1 gen 2. That would put you at a slight bit less than $2000. One of the biggest upgrades for my setup. I( haven't heard the DR-3 but I have heard the XPA-2 gen 3 (similar to the XPA-11) and I don't think it's worth it.
|
|
haptik
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
|
Post by haptik on Aug 17, 2020 21:05:51 GMT -5
I also came from a Denon (8500 which I still need to sell one of these days) before going to the RMC with Emotiva amps and I agree with the statements above, changing the receiver made the biggest difference. The DR3 feed by the Denon vs the RMC was a dramatic increase in dynamics. As for the XPA vs DR3 I use both but I never directly compared the two on the same speakers. I can say I'm really happy with how my setup sounds now but mine was also more than a 2k upgrade... Is that because of the preamps in the RMC? What would create the difference in dynamics? |
|
|
|
Post by thezone on Aug 17, 2020 21:46:26 GMT -5
So a lot to unpack here. And this is not really what you want to hear, but to an extent your AVR is going to be your limiting factor in getting a huge improvement in your overall sound. But if I was you I would get the DR-3 now since in HT the LCR are by far the most important channels, and of course in music you should be just using two channels. Your Denon has more than enough power for you surrounds. Now if you follow the same pattern many of us here have you will buy the extra large amp, and it will sound better but you feel like you will be missing something. And that something you will find out is your source (Denon AVR in this case). Eventually you will talk your self into going with a full pre/pro with balanced XLR outputs. You may go Marantz 8805 or Emotiva XMC-2 etc but they will be the path you take in the future (plus extra amp for your surround/in ceiling speakers). I’m not saying this to scare you off, it’s just what has happened to so many of us on this board. We start with really nice AVRs (like you have), add amps, then upgrade processors. Thanks for the guidance. So if I will eventually need to upgrade to processor regardless of the amp I choose now, are you recommending the DR3 because it should provide a greater total improvement over the XPA11 at this point? Is that because of its power potential? If I’ll get similar front stage performance out of the XPA11, then that would seem like the more future-proof way to go. Btw, I upmix my music with Auro-2D. I know stereo purists will scoff at that, but I have extensively A/B’d Auro-2D against stereo and I prefer the immersion of the upmix. So perhaps that adds more reason to power my center sufficiently even when listening to music. I'm with you, with upmixing stereo I actually prefer the sound, but if your impressed with your Denon then you will be blown away with an XMC-2 doing it using Dolby Surround. And yes the preamps in the RMC-1/XMC-2 will be far superior to your Denon. I am not understating this, the surround upmixer makes 2ch sound like it was properly mixed in 5.1 so seamless is the separation and it does this on the fly! In fact, I have quite a few 5.1 DTS/SACD files and I actually prefer the upmixed 2ch tracks! (The exception to this is Foreigner 4). As far as Amps go, get 3 of the PA-1's for LCR only US$900 including shipping or even just one for the Center, they sound amazing. Particularly on the center speaker upmixing using dolby surround, the speed and control they have of the speaker is exquisite, it sounds like the person's face is in the speaker, like the diaphragm is their lips and this is upmixing 2ch music. These PA-1's have brought my music collection to life. So XMC-2 $2,999 3 x PA-1's $900 = $3,900 A bit more than your budget but you'll never look back. |
|
|
|
Post by MusicHead on Aug 18, 2020 23:12:15 GMT -5
Regardless of what amps you are considering, compare the differences in power using dB, not Watts.
600W vs 490W is not a big difference. You have to double the power to get 3dB more. I did not run the exact numbers, but if you have to go from 490W to 980W to get +3dB, going from 490W to 600W is like just +1dB or so.
|
|
haptik
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
|
Post by haptik on Aug 19, 2020 19:04:02 GMT -5
Regardless of what amps you are considering, compare the differences in power using dB, not Watts. 600W vs 490W is not a big difference. You have to double the power to get 3dB more. I did not run the exact numbers, but if you have to go from 490W to 980W to get +3dB, going from 490W to 600W is like just +1dB or so. Yup I’m really interested in the added dynamic range for peak transients, which should only be a few dBs or so different. My RMS power requirements probably won’t change. |
|
haptik
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
|
Post by haptik on Aug 20, 2020 20:06:14 GMT -5
Wanted to update this thread. I ended up buying a second-hand D-Sonic M3a-1200 3 class D amplifier for about as much as a new XPA-3 Gen 3. The D-Sonic puts out 800 watts per channel into 4 ohm and uses well reviewed and well rated Pascal modules.
My next move is add 4 overhead speakers for ATMOS duty and call it a day until my next promotion, at which point I’ll be looking at a processor 😄
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Aug 20, 2020 23:32:23 GMT -5
Wanted to update this thread. I ended up buying a second-hand D-Sonic M3a-1200 3 class D amplifier for about as much as a new XPA-3 Gen 3. The D-Sonic puts out 800 watts per channel into 4 ohm and uses well reviewed and well rated Pascal modules. My next move is add 4 overhead speakers for ATMOS duty and call it a day until my next promotion, at which point I’ll be looking at a processor 😄 Please tell us what you think of the D-sonic. I have also been interested in them |
|
|
|
Post by tom9933 on Aug 22, 2020 11:25:06 GMT -5
I also came from a Denon (8500 which I still need to sell one of these days) before going to the RMC with Emotiva amps and I agree with the statements above, changing the receiver made the biggest difference. The DR3 feed by the Denon vs the RMC was a dramatic increase in dynamics. As for the XPA vs DR3 I use both but I never directly compared the two on the same speakers. I can say I'm really happy with how my setup sounds now but mine was also more than a 2k upgrade... Is that because of the preamps in the RMC? What would create the difference in dynamics? Considering everything else was the same yes its something in the RMC thats making a big difference. BTW on my Denon I even used the pre-amp only mode although that may be an 8500 only setting. |
|
