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Post by quattroll on Sept 5, 2020 14:52:45 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
I have been using a cork (Music Hall) mat in favor of felt on my Pro-Ject Genie 1.3. Recently I bought an acrylic platter to use instead from Hudson HiFi on Amazon.
I have just tried the Acrylic and I have to say it does make a difference. The cork is much quieter that the felt, but the acrylic is quiet too, but is much better all around. Certainly more and deeper bass, and the higher end like cymbals etc. shine too. The cork is by comparison a bit muted.
Just wondering what you guys think and is leather or rubber working well for anyone?
Thanks.
BTW I also just got a Schiit Mani and having compared it with my XPS, I'm going to say that it is impressive and more revealing. I have it set on low gain (30db) which seems like a good compromise vs noise, which is an area people may complain about with this unit. Although I'll probably do more comparisons, I don't think I will change my mind.
I have played tracks from M.I.A. and Morrissey, that contain substantial bass, percussion, cymbals, vocals and interesting transients, as well as some crashing piano sections. I'm considering getting a Schiit SYS, so I can AB more easily, but maybe that is silly. The combination of the acrylic platter and Mani have made a big positive change to my turntable.
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Post by markc on Sept 5, 2020 15:08:46 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I have been using a cork (Music Hall) mat in favor of felt on my Pro-Ject Genie 1.3. Recently I bought an acrylic platter to use instead from Hudson HiFi on Amazon. I have just tried the Acrylic and I have to say it does make a difference. The cork is much quieter that the felt, but the acrylic is quiet too, but is much better all around. Certainly more and deeper bass, and the higher end like cymbals etc. shine too. The cork is by comparison a bit muted. Just wondering what you guys think and is leather or rubber working well for anyone? Thanks. BTW I also just got a Schiit Mani and having compared it with my XPS, I'm going to say that it is impressive and more revealing. I have it set on low gain (30db) which seems like a good compromise vs noise, which is an area people may complain about with this unit. Although I'll probably do more comparisons, I don't think I will change my mind. I have played tracks from M.I.A. and Morrissey, that contain substantial bass, percussion, cymbals, vocals and interesting transients, as well as some crashing piano sections. I'm considering getting a Schiit SYS, so I can AB more easily, but maybe that is silly. The combination of the acrylic platter and Mani have made a big positive change to my turntable. Although I wouldn’t dream of introducing the sonic limitations of vinyl into my system, I would have though it clear that the cork will definitely At least as good as rubber or felt or a flour tortilla (of appropriate sized) The soundstage and breathe-ability and Lusciousness of the Dimensionality will leap out with cork just as well (or as badly) if not more, as the other materials. The effect is particularly beneficial because it is placed nowhere near the surface that the needles rubs and scratches against. |
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butchgo
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Post by butchgo on Sept 6, 2020 17:14:36 GMT -5
I don't know how a mat can change the sound at all!!!!!! Different stylus, absolutely, but a mat?  ?? |
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doc1963
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Post by doc1963 on Sept 6, 2020 18:32:56 GMT -5
While a lot of what is claimed about different mat materials can be considered “snake oil”, haphazardly mismatching the thickness of a mat on a table that does not have adjustable arm height and VTA certainly can change the sound. As far as materials go, felt is a non-starter for me. Felt mats go right in the trash. Nothing to do with “sound”, but more because of the fact that it conducts static and you’ll spend more time pulling the mat off of the back side of your vinyl records than actually playing them. Rubber mats were the material of choice for many decades for good reasons. It provides good isolation between the record and the platter and it’s non-conductive. If you can find a traditional rubber mat in the proper thickness for your table, buy it. If you cannot find that, then my best recommendation would be a Herbie’s Audio Lab “Way Excellent II” turntable mat. I used the original “Way Excellent” mat on my VPI Scout for years and liked it much better than the Sorbothane mat VPI supplied. Herbie’s mats aren’t exactly cheap for what it is, but they’re far below “exotic” prices. You’ll find the Herbie’s mat... HERE |
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Post by creimes on Sept 7, 2020 0:46:28 GMT -5
My platter is acrylic and I don't use a mat
Chad
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Post by DavidR on Sept 7, 2020 8:53:46 GMT -5
1.7 kilogram aluminum die cast platter with rubber mat.
So much voodoo surrounding TTs
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Post by drtrey3 on Sept 7, 2020 10:54:29 GMT -5
Turntables are precision instruments trying to wrest information out of a physical medium that has info measured in angstroms. Vibration might just affect that. Or perhaps that is physics voodoo.
Trey
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Sept 7, 2020 11:25:17 GMT -5
I just recently went from the "stock" felt mat that came with my turntable to a leather mat. The problem I felt that I was having was that during run-out at the end of the record and the "dead" grooves between songs I could pick up a "rumble"; a low frequency hum. I went with the leather mat after looking at all the pros and cons of different material mats. While changing to the leather mat didn't eliminate the "rumble" it reduced how loud it was and raised the pitch of the remaining rumble a bit. With that, it cleaned up my over all sound and was a relatively inexpensive upgrade to better my sound. I need to probably get an acrylic platter to get rid of the rest of the rumble. Here's a link to the leather mat that I got: Leather TT Mat |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 7, 2020 11:51:29 GMT -5
I always used felt slip mats on my DJ turntables. For home hifi, no mat.  |
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Post by whitwye on Sept 7, 2020 12:28:32 GMT -5
I put a leather mat on an acrylic turntable that by reputation doesn't need a mat. It pleases my ears.
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Post by whitwye on Sept 7, 2020 12:30:06 GMT -5
[dupe deleted]
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 7, 2020 20:05:37 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I have been using a cork (Music Hall) mat in favor of felt on my Pro-Ject Genie 1.3. Recently I bought an acrylic platter to use instead from Hudson HiFi on Amazon. I have just tried the Acrylic and I have to say it does make a difference. The cork is much quieter that the felt, but the acrylic is quiet too, but is much better all around. Certainly more and deeper bass, and the higher end like cymbals etc. shine too. The cork is by comparison a bit muted. Just wondering what you guys think and is leather or rubber working well for anyone? Thanks. BTW I also just got a Schiit Mani and having compared it with my XPS, I'm going to say that it is impressive and more revealing. I have it set on low gain (30db) which seems like a good compromise vs noise, which is an area people may complain about with this unit. Although I'll probably do more comparisons, I don't think I will change my mind. I have played tracks from M.I.A. and Morrissey, that contain substantial bass, percussion, cymbals, vocals and interesting transients, as well as some crashing piano sections. I'm considering getting a Schiit SYS, so I can AB more easily, but maybe that is silly. The combination of the acrylic platter and Mani have made a big positive change to my turntable. Time to bring the EPA into this (for your own protection.) Clearly there is something toxic being emitted from the mat material that’s impairing judgement and fostering delusional thinking. My suggestion would be to toss those aftermarket mats, return to stock and leave the windows open for a few days....(really). |
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Post by DavidR on Sept 8, 2020 10:10:37 GMT -5
Sorry, but I just don't get the acrylic platter thing. Since most of you are probably using a rubber-band belt drive TT it just sounds like a static generator to me. As for the mat I always felt it is just there to protect your vinyl record while keeping it in place and has nothing to do with sonic performance.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 8, 2020 11:38:38 GMT -5
... As for the mat I always felt it is just there to protect your vinyl record while keeping it in place and has nothing to do with sonic performance. I think the potential for improvement is there because you are essentially laying a microphone on a big diaphragm. Depending on speaker and turntable placement, listening level, how well your turntable is suspended or isolated; it’s certainly possible a mat could reduce acoustic or mechanical vibrations from reaching the disc, or deadening them if they do. |
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Post by fbczar on Sept 8, 2020 13:08:22 GMT -5
... As for the mat I always felt it is just there to protect your vinyl record while keeping it in place and has nothing to do with sonic performance. I think the potential for improvement is there because you are essentially laying a microphone on a big diaphragm. Depending on speaker and turntable placement, listening level, how well your turntable is suspended or isolated; it’s certainly possible a mat could reduce acoustic or mechanical vibrations from reaching the disc, or deadening them if they do. A mat can definitely make a difference in sound. I have an original Rega Planar 2 turntable. My dealer gave me a Platter Matter mat. I literally could not believe the difference. Of course, turntables are subject to all kinds of voodoo. |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 8, 2020 13:48:33 GMT -5
“A mat can definitely make a difference in sound. I have an original Rega Planar 2 turntable. My dealer gave me a Platter Matter mat. I literally could not believe the difference. Of course, turntables are subject to all kinds of voodoo.“ I wish I had a nickel for every time in this game, I heard those words:”I literally could not believe the difference”. What I can’t get over is the lengths people will go to, or the time spent on things that can’t possibly make a difference except, in that part of the brain 🧠 that’s simply bored to tears 😭. Now if you want to latch onto something that truly is the Cats Ass, grab some of these risers!   |
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Post by quattroll on Sept 9, 2020 12:06:19 GMT -5
I think the potential for improvement is there because you are essentially laying a microphone on a big diaphragm. Depending on speaker and turntable placement, listening level, how well your turntable is suspended or isolated; it’s certainly possible a mat could reduce acoustic or mechanical vibrations from reaching the disc, or deadening them if they do. A mat can definitely make a difference in sound. I have an original Rega Planar 2 turntable. My dealer gave me a Platter Matter mat. I literally could not believe the difference. Of course, turntables are subject to all kinds of voodoo. I agree. Since not much happened initially in this thread, I decided to try the other alternatives. As I said, The acrylic outperformed both the original felt (worst) and cork (better noise reduction, less dynamic range). I received a rubber matt and also leather and tried those too. Now I have watched many videos on proper set up, and I have the tools to set VTA, Azimuth, Anti Skate, tonearm weight, etc. and therefore I feel my results are true for my set up. The rubber may have been a tiny bit higher, I’ll check that again. In general, the rubber introduced a lot of flabby bass and reduced highs. The leather was similar to the cork, maybe a little better, but still lacking the lower tighter bass and clearer high end. I would also say that the soundstage widened and there was better imaging with the acrylic vs all the other alternatives. The leather had the downside of not settling perfectly, therefore it introduced some wobble. I urge anyone looking to improve their turntable to consider mat selection and to familiarize yourself with the key adjustments that can bring your set up to life. An affordable cartridge upgrade can be big too, I got that with a Nagoaka MP110. Another key is to level your turntable with a ball bearing. I used a 1 inch steel bearing to set my table absolutely level. A bubble will not be precise enough. At the very least I have my turntable sounding great, without spending much, and I really have to wonder how much better it can really get without turning silly. Have you seen Analog Planet tour those international shows? Unbelievable what’s out there! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 9, 2020 12:54:48 GMT -5
You're talking about a very sensitive mechanical system.... so a lot of things can affect it. (I'll be charitable and say that's one of the things that makes really clean vinyl reproduction so... challenging...  ) The signal causes the stylus to move a tiny fraction of an inch...
I leave it to you to figure out how large a vibration it would take to be 60 dB or 80 dB BELOW that... * The surface of the record itself is a diaphragm, picking up vibration from the air, so the mat can help damp that vibration * The platter is also picking up vibration from its bearing and the turntable's motor * It's also picking up vibration from whatever the turntable is sitting on; no turntable has perfect suspension. * Then there's this little thing about "equal and opposite reaction".
The record pushes up on the stylus and the stylus pushes down on the record - in time to the music. This makes the record itself want to vibrate and ring in time to the music. And, of course, the record in turn pushes on the platter. The platter is a lot heavier, but it's also a lot stiffer, and so a lot more prone to ringing. So the mat can help with damping and isolation there. Then there's what I would call "secondary effects"... Put a record on a really hard surface and, all acoustic considerations aside, any dust or grit on the surface or the record is going to become one with the record. And, unless you nail it down, there's not going to be anything to keep the two tightly coupled together.
And, of course, on a flat surface, a warped or dished record will NOT sit flat against that surface, opening the door for all sorts of interesting resonance effects. In this regard a nice squishy mat is going to be a lot more forgiving.
Then we get to chemical effects. I suspect that Sorbothane would be great in terms of damping and vibration suppression. Except for the little problem that the chemicals that make Sorbothane what it is tend to attack other sorts of plastic... like vinyl. And, while leather sounds "organic", at least in principle, it's also made with all sorts of interesting and nervous-making chemicals.
Maybe Sorbothane, topped with a thin soft vapor barrier, and a thin layer of felt... Make that anti-static felt... We didn't mention static yet... which not only makes ticks and pops, but also attracts dust like, well, an electrostatic air filter...
(And, of course, that stylus, sliding across that sheet of vinyl, makes a pretty good static generator.)
The real take-away from all this is that the mat is part of a system - which includes the platter, the bearing, and even the suspension. So they all have to work well together. (Digital bits are just soooo much simpler...  ) I don't know how a mat can change the sound at all!!!!!! Different stylus, absolutely, but a mat? ?? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 9, 2020 13:04:34 GMT -5
Have you seen the turntable suspension with the big rubber inner tube and the counterweight? Well, it's a heavy platform, sitting on top of an inflated thing that looks like an inner tube, with a counterweight hanging below on a rod - for stability. (I forget who made it... but there really is such a thing... I don't have that much imagination.)
What I find most interesting, or perhaps disturbing, is this... With more and more fancier, more complicated, and more expensive, turntables turning up...
You almost never see specifications any more... For some reason most of those fancy new products don't want to mention numbers like wow, and flutter, and rumble...
It does make one wonder why... (or maybe not)
“A mat can definitely make a difference in sound. I have an original Rega Planar 2 turntable. My dealer gave me a Platter Matter mat. I literally could not believe the difference. Of course, turntables are subject to all kinds of voodoo.“ I wish I had a nickel for every time in this game, I heard those words:”I literally could not believe the difference”. What I can’t get over is the lengths people will go to, or the time spent on things that can’t possibly make a difference except, in that part of the brain 🧠 that’s simply bored to tears 😭. Now if you want to latch onto something that truly is the Cats Ass, grab some of these risers! |
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Post by DavidR on Sept 9, 2020 13:50:43 GMT -5
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