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Post by leonski on Feb 13, 2021 18:24:10 GMT -5
www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_elpipeo.pdfIf you are a fan of Nelson Pass, this should come as No Surprise. This is when you buy into 'Nothing Succeeds Like Excess'....... Best of luck finding the space for THESE monsters. You'll need a 14' ceiling, a dedicated electrical circuit for power AND start counting the drivers!
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Post by megash0n on Feb 13, 2021 18:50:09 GMT -5
I can tell you from my own experience that it is near impossible to build a wall to withstand the force of the subs without unwanted noise from the vibrations. Now, of course it IS possible with insane construction. My wall in my theatre room is built with a sheet of osb on the back, two on the front... All of it glued and screwed to a well built 2*4 wall. Sheetrock on both sides of the wall. I have 2 pairs of 18 inch IB subs surface mounted to wall inserts made from a 2x4 frame, layers of osb and MDF. These rectangles if you will are then glued and screwed into place inside the wall. Then, the entire wall is braced with brackets and 2*4s to the concrete wall behind the front wall (air space). While they sound and feel incredible. The noise generated from the wall moving is almost unbearable at certain frequencies. Could it be improved? Probably. The point is that you can spend an enormous amount of time and money and still have vibration that is not ok. My recommendation would be to build manifolds that attach to your wall that contain your subs. Basically this is a subwoofer box big enough to house the subs. One side of the box is open. This opening points into your room. Think "port" if you like. The subs are installed in an opposing way to limit or remove the mechanical vibration and wall flex. You do lose a little spl, but for my room, the (4) 18s put out so much air pressure that I could watch the hair on my arm shift back and forth during low extension. They play so low and powerful that it seems like the house is about to come down, but you aren't hearing it. It's a true experience in my opinion. I'm not sure if there is anything to it or not, but I always tell people... It's like having the same level of audible sound but twice the air pressure. To me, in a room with normal subs, you can only go so high in pressure before they are too loud and unbalanced. I was under the impression from reading about it that IB "needs" some flex in a wall, and that a wall that is too rigid doesn't work as well. You're saying that the wall needs to be rigid, right? let me say first, that I am far from an expert. I read about every word on the IB cult site years ago when I built mine. I'm sure there is some optimal way to do all of it, but to me... Whether the wall flexes or not would be a minor concern compared to what I have experienced with the solution in general. So, at 90 percent effective, it is still 100 better than any compatible box sub ive ever heard. These are just my opinions based on my experiences. I don't have an easier way to explain it other than, for the same audible volume level.... You get twice the air pressure manipulation. To me, if you turn the gain up or add more normal subs, you hear it as louder and you feel it stronger. But, you need to turn it down to match everything else audible-wise. I hope I'm making sense. 😊
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Post by megash0n on Feb 13, 2021 18:50:47 GMT -5
I was under the impression from reading about it that IB "needs" some flex in a wall, and that a wall that is too rigid doesn't work as well. You're saying that the wall needs to be rigid, right? let me say first, that I am far from an expert. I read about every word on the IB cult site years ago when I built mine. I'm sure there is some optimal way to do all of it, but to me... Whether the wall flexes or not would be a minor concern compared to what I have experienced with the solution in general. So, at 90 percent effective, it is still 100 better than any compatible box sub ive ever heard. These are just my opinions based on my experiences. I don't have an easier way to explain it other than, for the same audible volume level.... You get twice the air pressure manipulation. To me, if you turn the gain up or add more normal subs, you hear it as louder and you feel it stronger. But, you need to turn it down to match everything else audible-wise. I hope I'm making sense. 😊 Edit... I hope you understand what I am saying.. Not that I am actually correct. It's what I "think".
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Post by ttocs on Feb 13, 2021 19:41:44 GMT -5
let me say first, that I am far from an expert. I read about every word on the IB cult site years ago when I built mine. I'm sure there is some optimal way to do all of it, but to me... Whether the wall flexes or not would be a minor concern compared to what I have experienced with the solution in general. So, at 90 percent effective, it is still 100 better than any compatible box sub ive ever heard. These are just my opinions based on my experiences. I don't have an easier way to explain it other than, for the same audible volume level.... You get twice the air pressure manipulation. To me, if you turn the gain up or add more normal subs, you hear it as louder and you feel it stronger. But, you need to turn it down to match everything else audible-wise. I hope I'm making sense. 😊 Edit... I hope you understand what I am saying.. Not that I am actually correct. It's what I "think". As the Taxi Driver famously said in the Firesign Theater sketch:" Waiting For The Electrician Or Someone Like Him": " Listen buddy, let me give 'ya a piece of advice, what'cha don' mean won't hurt'cha".
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Post by leonski on Feb 14, 2021 17:21:05 GMT -5
Edit... I hope you understand what I am saying.. Not that I am actually correct. It's what I "think". As the Taxi Driver famously said in the Firesign Theater sketch:" Waiting For The Electrician Or Someone Like Him": " Listen buddy, let me give 'ya a piece of advice, what'cha don' mean won't hurt'cha". I've spent decades trying to live by those words. Many don't understand, having an 'overserious' streak tough to erase.
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Post by ttocs on Feb 27, 2021 19:49:30 GMT -5
Kinda difficult to know which end is up at the moment. I was going along for months under one scenario and working with it pretty well. With Firmware 2.2 things have changed. I already know from some conversations in the last couple months that one part of this will be looked into, but some things have gone in the opposite direction with this latest firmware. I'm not getting into a 2.1 vs 2.2 in this post, it'll make things confused. I just want to concentrate on what I'm currently seeing and what might make things better. Firmware 2.2 Dirac 3.0.11 These are plots of 5.1 channels of my ATMOS setup as seen by REW. Fronts=Large (Blue and Red) Center Sub=LFE (Teal) The dashed purple trace is both Fronts summed together, and this should be the same for all the Small channels. The Small channels are all the dotted traces that go extremely high in the low freqs, but they should be no higher than the L&R purple trace. The LFE is not +10dB above the Small channels, but is more than 10dB above the Large Fronts, and the Small bass is above the LFE at the low end. Above 100Hz all the speaker channels settle down to the same level as the Fronts. So it's just the bass that's mostly below 130Hz that's gone nuts. If all of the bass below 130Hz was even with the Large Fronts then the LFE would be its +10dB to the "Screen Channels" as Dolby calls them, plus a little more. 1 or 2 dB is easily correctable or disregarded, but 3dB and more is definitely noticeable, just like with the last firmware where the above plot would show the Small channels about 4dB above the Large Fronts which supply the bass for those channels. Fronts=Small (Blue and Red) Center Sub=Mono (Teal) The LFE is not +10dB, but instead is about +7dB above the Small channels. Normal systems with subwoofers setup as Mono shouldn't detect a problem, it's just the systems with channels setup as Large and using the Center Sub LFE setup.
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Post by ttocs on Mar 12, 2021 20:22:11 GMT -5
Things Change (A fun, early Joe Mantegna movie)Since FW2.2 has changed how bass is managed I'm rolling with the changes and finding what can work for me. For now, I'm abandoning using the Large Fronts for BM, and rewiring the system to "fix" the problem at hand, which is elevated bass with no adjustment possible. After a lot of combinations tried this week I found one that allows the bass from the Small speakers below the crossover settings to be able to be at the correct level, as well as being able to adjust the LFE level independently. As such, I'm resurrecting the idea of using a dedicated subwoofer for the Center Speaker. This setup has the Front LCR speakers setup as Large. The Surrounds/ATMOS will remain Small. Center Sub = LFE, Left Sub = Mono, both outputs are input to miniDSP1 which outputs to L1, R1, Sub5 for both LFE and BM. Center Speaker out to active crossover input, the High output goes to amp to Center Speaker, the Low output goes to Sub6. This protects the Center Speaker from possibly damaging low frequencies. As I've mentioned in the past, using a dedicated sub for the Center channel is the best sound I've gotten in my system, so this part is not a compromise.
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Germotiva
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Post by Germotiva on Mar 13, 2021 8:13:46 GMT -5
Things Change (A fun, early Joe Mantegna movie)Since FW2.2 has changed how bass is managed I'm rolling with the changes and finding what can work for me. For now, I'm abandoning using the Large Fronts for BM, and rewiring the system to "fix" the problem at hand, which is elevated bass with no adjustment possible. After a lot of combinations tried this week I found one that allows the bass from the Small speakers below the crossover settings to be able to be at the correct level, as well as being able to adjust the LFE level independently. As such, I'm resurrecting the idea of using a dedicated subwoofer for the Center Speaker. This setup has the Front LCR speakers setup as Large. The Surrounds/ATMOS will remain Small. Center Sub = LFE, Left Sub = Mono, both outputs are input to miniDSP1 which outputs to L1, R1, Sub5 for both LFE and BM. Center Speaker out to active crossover input, the High output goes to amp to Center Speaker, the Low output goes to Sub6. This protects the Center Speaker from possibly damaging low frequencies. As I've mentioned in the past, using a dedicated sub for the Center channel is the best sound I've gotten in my system, so this part is not a compromise. View Attachmenthello ttocs, have you ever thought about the different latencies (dsp / x-over, before, after) of the signals by tapping them differently. how do you set the correct delay for each channel. measure it with rew with time referenc. you will be surprised. up to 4ms +. I tested it with my DSP. In / out. before and after. The DSP includes an ATM. www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/knowledge-base/dsp-pc-tool/atm/. I was oversay and must think about how I stop it. So that the delay refers to reference again. I will check it with a pulse measurement on each channel. So that the signal comes back to my hearing. This is really tricky with a large system with several DSP and X-Over. And if it is still through different DSP and outputs of the individual paths. Here I have to apply mathematics and count or remove the differences. Maybe I also go a different way and use a y cable in my system to get better. Look at my diagram. I'll be moved. That will be my setup to an end.And then the Atmos channels come to🤪
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Post by ttocs on Mar 13, 2021 10:00:45 GMT -5
Germotiva I let Dirac worry about the latency of matching the channels for movies. I think the total for the system as determined by Dirac is 35ms. I don't worry about the total delay until it becomes a problem for lip sync. The latency of each channel using a miniDSP is under 10ms for the longest delay. The miniDSP itself if pretty short, and the wireless transmitter/receiver pairs is about 1ms. All of the DSP stuff is only used for movies. For two channel there is no miniDSP or active crossover in the chain, other than what is built-in to each speaker or subwoofer. I still use Reference Stereo for music however. The subs attached to the each Front speaker are connected via Speaker Connection and are adjusted using the built-in controls on each subwoofer. The result is great! Impulse looks really good for each Front speaker. The only channel I'm not certain about right now is the Center Channel because I just did the setup last night and I used my oldest subwoofer which doesn't have a continuous phase control on it. The active crossover has very minimal delay built-in so it's not much help. But using subwoofer placement and the tiny delay in the crossover I was able to achieve what should be pretty close. My system is extremely simple compared to yours! You've got a lot going on there.
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Germotiva
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Post by Germotiva on Mar 13, 2021 13:31:43 GMT -5
OK, I understood. I will first carry out the 2-way difference between the individual channels via the DSP. Then I charge Dirac to set the work for the entire setup. Today my DIRAC package has arrived 🥳. I only hear pure music via The Reference Output.. Music about Dolby sounds good too. What is annoyed only if I change to all stereo. The surrounds are far too loud or the front much too quiet. How to call it. Unfortunately, the volume setting (ratio) of the 2 operating mode does not match at all. Is the difference with you too. The front too quiet, at all stereo.
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Post by ttocs on Mar 13, 2021 14:04:28 GMT -5
All Stereo volume from channel to channel is within a few dB, but it's so difficult to measure - especially my electrostatic speakers with woofers at the bottom. If I use an SPL Meter and position it 30cm from the stat panel I get one reading, but if I move it so it can catch more woofer then it measures louder.
In my opinion, All Stereo should "sound" like it's not coming from any one speaker. You may "think" it sounds like the Fronts are not as loud, but that might be because we are used to the Front LCR being the main focus.
Frankly, when I use All Stereo for what it's best at, sound everywhere in the room, it works very well.
Congratulations on receiving your Dirac Kit!
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Germotiva
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Post by Germotiva on Mar 13, 2021 15:12:48 GMT -5
Thank you. Only a few DB differences do you have. I have 10dB difference when I switch to all stereo. The stereo front is 10dB quietly than at the front in surround mode. I use the second speaker prents for all stereo. The DIRAC will start using when everything is set with the DSP. This can still take and takes a lot of time. Hier my preliminary result of the 4 12 " Midbass(Bandpass50-150Hz) in the Front 0 dB on RMC. And this -20db(Rmc) with the Subs on x-over 50Hz/24db
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Post by ttocs on Mar 13, 2021 15:33:12 GMT -5
Thank you. Only a few DB differences do you have. I have 10dB difference when I switch to all stereo. The stereo front is 10dB quietly than at the front in surround mode. I use the second speaker prents for all stereo. The DIRAC will start using when everything is set with the DSP. This can still take and takes a lot of time. Hier my preliminary result of the 4 12 " Midbass(Bandpass50-150Hz) in the Front 0 dB on RMC. Maybe I misunderstood you about what the difference is when switching to All Stereo. I was only measuring from speaker to speaker while using All Stereo. But yes, the Fronts are a lot quieter after switching to All Stereo, but this is because all the channels are working at the same time. So the Fronts are quieter, but all of the other speakers that were quiet are now louder. So after I switch to All Stereo the overall volume is higher by 2-3dB, but this will depend on how many channels had sound while in Surround mode. The comparison is like this, if only the Front LCR have sound and then switch to All Stereo the overall volume will increase because 10 more speakers now have sound. Make sense?
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Germotiva
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Post by Germotiva on Mar 13, 2021 15:44:54 GMT -5
Yes check, It^s normal. Now I use how written, Presents 2 for all stereo and I increase the front and it is great. The Sound come out of the Front, an the Bass from all loudspeker on the Point 👍. Tomorrow I will vote the midbasses from the surrounds on the front Midbass and Sub. And then I can start the routing test with its own bass managment.😉 LFE / MONO TO THE L + R AND L + R TO THE SUB. What I find good is when I get additionally the BSR + BSL to route to the rear subs. Better locating and pressure for shots and explosions in the rear area.
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Post by ttocs on Mar 13, 2021 19:29:04 GMT -5
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Post by ttocs on Mar 15, 2021 23:52:27 GMT -5
Germotiva I'm curious about your method for getting the timing correct between your DSP's. What do you use for that?
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Post by ttocs on Mar 16, 2021 15:18:30 GMT -5
Thank you. Only a few DB differences do you have. I have 10dB difference when I switch to all stereo. The stereo front is 10dB quietly than at the front in surround mode. I use the second speaker prents for all stereo. The DIRAC will start using when everything is set with the DSP. This can still take and takes a lot of time. Hier my preliminary result of the 4 12 " Midbass(Bandpass50-150Hz) in the Front 0 dB on RMC. You have some nice looking plots there! You also have the same little bump at 20Hz that my system has. That changes depending on how I have the lower curtain setup in Dirac. I'm going through some changes this week, so subwoofer tweaking is on my mind right now. My second miniDSP is being powered up tonight for adding the back-of-room subwoofer to the Front Left and Right channels to smooth a dip between 60-70Hz, and of course help in other frequency ranges. This way, the rear sub will be active even with Reference Stereo.
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Germotiva
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Post by Germotiva on Mar 16, 2021 16:12:38 GMT -5
Germotiva I'm curious about your method for getting the timing correct between your DSP's. What do you use for that? I did not forget you. But it's difficult for me at my age to write in English; it's not my mother tongue. i have never written english and my school english was 40 years ago. I try my best and try google translation. Unfortunately, I cannot control what the machine translates and what is understandable. I try to make it easier to understand with the help of pictures. I am currently preparing everything.
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Germotiva
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Post by Germotiva on Mar 16, 2021 16:25:01 GMT -5
Thank you. Only a few DB differences do you have. I have 10dB difference when I switch to all stereo. The stereo front is 10dB quietly than at the front in surround mode. I use the second speaker prents for all stereo. The DIRAC will start using when everything is set with the DSP. This can still take and takes a lot of time. Hier my preliminary result of the 4 12 " Midbass(Bandpass50-150Hz) in the Front 0 dB on RMC. You have some nice looking plots there! You also have the same little bump at 20Hz that my system has. That changes depending on how I have the lower curtain setup in Dirac. I'm going through some changes this week, so subwoofer tweaking is on my mind right now. My second miniDSP is being powered up tonight for adding the back-of-room subwoofer to the Front Left and Right channels to smooth a dip between 60-70Hz, and of course help in other frequency ranges. This way, the rear sub will be active even with Reference Stereo. The pink Fq is a sum of the 4 12 "and 4 15" sub. The black Fq is the result of 15 "sub and 12" midbass. so the bump is gone. I wish you good luck with the 2nd DSP mini. For my stereo chain I use the digital output spidf or coax of the rmc in the DSP. i can make my own setting in the dsp for spidf or coax digital. the setting switches on automatically when a signal is present at the digital input of the dsp. I love the Helix Ultra dsp
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Germotiva
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Post by Germotiva on Mar 16, 2021 17:29:04 GMT -5
ttocs i'm not a professional in calibrating. i am a beginner in contrast to you. I only used rew for fq. but since i have such a large setup with all the loudspeakers i have to learn more. with phase impulse and groupdelay. but unfortunately rew is in english and it is difficult for me to understand what is possible with the program. please don't trust me if I'm doing everything right. i can only check with my ears whether i hear the settings and improvements. Ears are the best microphones for me and notice improvements in what i do. I'll show you what I pay attention to and how I try to best adjust it. It won't be anything new for you. I will show you by means of measurements how I adjust my 12 "midbass in the first attempt. I am still looking for the best mixture of rew and my calibration system of the dsp. I only hope the translation of google translation is understandable.
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